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Edmunds Haters eat some crow.....


Kwai San
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15 hours ago, HappyDays said:

There was never a such thing as an Edmunds hater. Before this season he didn't live up to his draft status and was often times singled out and exploited by smart offenses. This year everything has finally clicked for him and it's impossible to imagine the defense being successful without him. I'm not going to eat crow. He developed into a much better player. Instead of pretending that he has always been this good I'm going to credit him for working his ass off to get to this point. And yes I would happily reward him with a big contract at the end of the season.

Edmunds has been the whipping boy around here the past couple seasons. Reminds me of how the fans treated London Fletcher and Gilmore…..never realize how good a player is until he’s gone!

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3 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

There are still people who think he is terrible. I saw it last night. 

 

I’ve never seen a player get blamed for so much that’s more often than not, not his fault. 
 

Every time a big run happens, it’s Edmunds fault. 

it’s weird. 

When you're the MLB and also praised for your otherworldly athleticism and physical gifts and are talked about like you're elite - it would be nice if you could shed a block or make an impact tackle once in a while.

We defended the run just fine without him, and that's not a celebration of his backups.

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10 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

When you're the MLB and also praised for your otherworldly athleticism and physical gifts and are talked about like you're elite - it would be nice if you could shed a block or make an impact tackle once in a while.

We defended the run just fine without him, and that's not a celebration of his backups.


I just really can't imagine watching the Bills defense as a whole without Edmunds in the lineup vs the Bills defense as a whole WITH Edmunds in the lineup and not seeing the night and day difference.

And if you think "defending the run" is the only factor to account for, I don't know what to say.

Edmunds is 1 of 1. There is not currently another middle linebacker in the NFL that can do what he does. I'll admit, I'd love it if he forced more turnovers. But seeing him easily carry the inside receiver in a trips set 20 yards up field and seeing him just completely erase the middle in the passing game, and seeing how his presence and massive wingspan deters opposing QBs from trying certain throws, and seeing how his presence impacts players like Dane Jackson (who can play outside leverage without being exposed the way he was when Edmunds was out)...it's so clear to me that he is a massive part of the success of the defense as a whole -- splash plays or not.

He is a linebacker by name, but almost functions like an enormous defensive back. He's that fast and rangy, and he has that much impact on the passing game. Seeing what the Bills pass defense looked like without him vs with him this year was the last thing I needed to see to convince me, as much as I was once against it...that Beane should find a way to pay that man.

Edited by Logic
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23 minutes ago, Logic said:


I just really can't imagine watching the Bills defense as a whole without Edmunds in the lineup vs the Bills defense as a whole WITH Edmunds in the lineup and not seeing the night and day difference.

And if you think "defending the run" is the only factor to account for, I don't know what to say.

Edmunds is 1 of 1. There is not currently another middle linebacker in the NFL that can do what he does. I'll admit, I'd love it if he forced more turnovers. But seeing him easily carry the inside receiver in a trips set 20 yards up field and seeing him just completely erase the middle in the passing game, and seeing how his presence and massive wingspan deters opposing QBs from trying certain throws, and seeing how his presence impacts players like Dane Jackson (who can play outside leverage without being exposed the way he was when Edmunds was out)...it's so clear to me that he is a massive part of the success of the defense as a whole -- splash plays or not.

He is a linebacker by name, but almost functions like an enormous defensive back. He's that fast and rangy, and he has that much impact on the passing game. Seeing what the Bills pass defense looked like without him vs with him this year was the last thing I needed to see to convince me, as much as I was once against it...that Beane should find a way to pay that man.

People say this all the time, but his analytics against the pass throughout his career are terrible - less so this year, but still not "1 of 1" or anywhere approaching elite. I guess I'm just not wowed that he has athleticism that lets him be in a position to make a play if his brain never tells him when it's time to make the play. Being a "deterrent" against the pass is just not an impressive trait for me. I get what you're saying about how so few LBs have that athleticism, but give me a guy with 50% less athleticism that hits 25% harder and sheds blocks 25% better and I'll make that trade every single day and twice on Sundays.

He's been in this league 5 years and we're still talking potential. He is what he is- which is a good not great LB that can sorta do one thing in a very specific defensive role. Don't ask him to tackle RBs or sack the QB because that's not his job. Just marvel at the way he drifts downfield with a TE while a player scoots by him to pick up monster yards on 3rd and long.

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8 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

People say this all the time, but his analytics against the pass throughout his career are terrible - less so this year, but still not "1 of 1" or anywhere approaching elite. I guess I'm just not wowed that he has athleticism that lets him be in a position to make a play if his brain never tells him when it's time to make the play. Being a "deterrent" against the pass is just not an impressive trait for me. I get what you're saying about how so few LBs have that athleticism, but give me a guy with 50% less athleticism that hits 25% harder and sheds blocks 25% better and I'll make that trade every single day and twice on Sundays.

He's been in this league 5 years and we're still talking potential. He is what he is- which is a good not great LB that can sorta do one thing in a very specific defensive role. Don't ask him to tackle RBs or sack the QB because that's not his job. Just marvel at the way he drifts downfield with a TE while a player scoots by him to pick up monster yards on 3rd and long.


If I'm not mistaken, the analytics talking about his ability in coverage only factor in plays where he is targeted. They talk about the success rate of the specific player he is covering when in a man coverage situation. These analytics do not account for the difference his size and giant wingspan make in terms of the way they close or shrink passing lanes and, thus, deter QBs from attempting certain throws in certain parts of the field. 

In short, I don't think statistical or analytical metrics can very effectively measure the impact Edmunds has on the passing defense as a whole. In order to illustrate what his difference means, just go back and watch the 1st half of the Vikings game vs the 2nd half, when he was sitting with injury. Or compare the Lions passing production in the middle of the field vs that of the Pats.

I also think that the characterization that he doesn't tackle the RB does not accurately reflect the way he is playing this season. In past years, I'd agree with you. This season, though, our improved defensive line -- particularly along the interior -- has been absorbing blocks and allowing Edmunds to flow to the ball and get tackles for loss. Even in last night's game, he had SEVERAL nice stops at or behind the line of scrimmage against Stevenson, who is NOT an easy guy to bring down.

I don't think it's about potential any more for me. It's about what he is RIGHT NOW. I think that what he has shown THIS SEASON -- his value to the defense and the way that it has played with him vs the way it has played without him -- allows me to think that he's a big and important piece of our defense and would not be easy to replace. 

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1 hour ago, streetkings01 said:

Edmunds has been the whipping boy around here the past couple seasons. Reminds me of how the fans treated London Fletcher and Gilmore…..never realize how good a player is until he’s gone!

He has been the whipping boy and there was some reason for it.  Many takes were extreme exaggerations, but his level of play the last few years Wasn’t what it’s been this year.  He’s improved 

 

I’m sure the improved DL has made things easier, but he just seems to be playing faster this year.  His processing has improved 

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17 hours ago, Nelius said:

Edmunds dummies always been wrong.

 

He's a gigantic match-up nightmare. Rangy predator on the field. Somewhat timid, maybe, but it's slowly leaving with every start. He's going to be the 29-30 year old game wrecking savage that everybody wants. Yes, I'm bring up his age again, because yes he's accomplished a tremendous amount early. Just imagine this dude in even 2-3 years.

 

Tremaine is the Josh Allen of this defense. Lock him down.

He’s still like 24 also, insane. 

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Willing to eat crow this year.  I've been a huge Edmunds detractor pretty much since he's been here.    He's been an absolute beast this year, and when he is out the team hasnt been the same.   That said, just because he has been great this year doesn't people were wrong about him in previous years.   I hope this is the norm moving forward and not just in a contract year.   However, this year has been the anomaly.  

Edited by thenorthremembers
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4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

This board is going to implode when Beane signs him to a 5-year contract.

I don't think Edmunds will even test the market.  It will be a fair deal for both parties.

He should be signed to a long term deal…….he fits this defense perfectly plus he’s extremely young and will get even better.

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21 hours ago, Baba Booey said:

I’m will take some crow on the side please! It’s coming down to make a decision on who you want to keep. Edmunds or Oliver? Guys we need Edmunds more, just look at the D today with him in middle. 

It's not an Edmunds-or-Oliver situation. The Bills will make room for both. They want young core stars at every level. Poyer is likely gone after this season and Micah will be gone after next. Finding a replacement safety will be big next year, although it seems like they feel okay with Hamlin. I'd love to see them draft one in the 2nd or 3rd.

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On 12/2/2022 at 2:50 AM, mrags said:

Well. That’s likely going to happen because if they find a way to keep Edmunds financially (I doubt they can), then they will surely not be able to resign Poyer, or extend Hyde after next season. Fwiw, I LOVE both Hyde and Poyer, but I’m not a fan of the extending Hyde, especially with his neck now. And Poyer isn’t without his injury issues now too. Point is, they will be 33 and 34 years old after this season. I just think it’s time to move on from them. Still not sure Edmunds fits money wise tho. 


This is a good discussion point. Since Beane was brought in he has only extended 2 of his own top 100 picks.
 

Josh and Knox from his top 100. Cody Ford, Harrison Philips Moss aren’t on the roster. Given the cap space I don’t think we extend Singletary, and AJE is JAG. 

 

It feels like a weird spot to talk about not having the money to extend a first round pick, while only extending one of your first round picks. (2 if you count Tre who is pre-Beane)

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12 minutes ago, Mango said:


This is a good discussion point. Since Beane was brought in he has only extended 2 of his own top 100 picks.
 

Josh and Knox from his top 100. Cody Ford, Harrison Philips Moss aren’t on the roster. Given the cap space I don’t think we extend Singletary, and AJE is JAG. 

 

It feels like a weird spot to talk about not having the money to extend a first round pick, while only extending one of your first round picks. (2 if you count Tre who is pre-Beane)

In Beanea defense, his later round picks have panned out very nicely and they have earned 2nd contracts that exceeded what was expected out of them. 

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2 minutes ago, mrags said:

In Beanea defense, his later round picks have panned out very nicely and they have earned 2nd contracts that exceeded what was expected out of them. 


I agree. I think Basham, AJE, Rousseau, then paying Von. You could probably lump in our giant DL rotation into this. Plus a bunch of 2nds and 3rds on RB’s hurt us in a handful of places. 
 

There’s certainly some benefit. But some pain points as well. 

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2 minutes ago, Mango said:


I agree. I think Basham, AJE, Rousseau, then paying Von. You could probably lump in our giant DL rotation into this. Plus a bunch of 2nds and 3rds on RB’s hurt us in a handful of places. 
 

There’s certainly some benefit. But some pain points as well. 

Basham has played ok considering his draft pick. It’s the fact that AJE is JAG and was drafted too early. I was a huge fan of his coming out as well. But because of Covid he lost too much weight and changed his game imo. I would have preferred a big thick LDE which is why I thought we were getting out of him. Then he went and lost about 40lbs of his college playing weight. The first season he was pushed around way too much. He’s steadily gotten better, but it hasn’t been enough to earn a 2nd contract imo. But Basham should get a team friendly one for a backup imo. 
 

all the RBs have been a disappointment imo. Moss was a waste. Had high hopes for him too. And I really like Motor, but the fact is he’s JAG thy could be replaced. He’s the definition of the old “RBs are a dime a dozen” type of guy. He doesn’t deserve a 2nd contract unless you can get him for close to vet min to be a backup going forward. Cook has been slow to get up to speed but I see him taking big strides moving forward. At least I hope he does. I actually believe he is capable of being close to an every down back for this team. Keep Hines and draft a late round bruiser or find one in FA. 

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22 minutes ago, mrags said:

Basham has played ok considering his draft pick. It’s the fact that AJE is JAG and was drafted too early. I was a huge fan of his coming out as well. But because of Covid he lost too much weight and changed his game imo. I would have preferred a big thick LDE which is why I thought we were getting out of him. Then he went and lost about 40lbs of his college playing weight. The first season he was pushed around way too much. He’s steadily gotten better, but it hasn’t been enough to earn a 2nd contract imo. But Basham should get a team friendly one for a backup imo. 
 

all the RBs have been a disappointment imo. Moss was a waste. Had high hopes for him too. And I really like Motor, but the fact is he’s JAG thy could be replaced. He’s the definition of the old “RBs are a dime a dozen” type of guy. He doesn’t deserve a 2nd contract unless you can get him for close to vet min to be a backup going forward. Cook has been slow to get up to speed but I see him taking big strides moving forward. At least I hope he does. I actually believe he is capable of being close to an every down back for this team. Keep Hines and draft a late round bruiser or find one in FA. 


I actually don’t want to keep Hines at $4M next year. We are strapped with little space. I’d be find with a Singletary 2nd deal if he’d keep it cheap to stick around and get a late round pick. But Hines is waaaay to expensive for his production. 

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5 hours ago, Mango said:


I actually don’t want to keep Hines at $4M next year. We are strapped with little space. I’d be find with a Singletary 2nd deal if he’d keep it cheap to stick around and get a late round pick. But Hines is waaaay to expensive for his production. 

Motor at a team friendly deal, yes. And I’d expect Hines to take a restructured deal. Add in some guaranteed money. Some incentives. And expectations that he wouldn’t be a first or maybe even a second option. 

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With injuries this year this season has definitely made me appreciate players that I have not in past. Most notably Edmunds, Morse, and Dawkins. For the players I already greatly valued that even sky rocketed  more this year.  Players like Hyde or Poyer. Could also mention Oliver and Milano. I expected significant drop off in talent but Jaquan Johnson, Cam Lewis, Queensberry, Vanrotten have made so many game changing negative plays to actually cost this team games. Hamlin has been underwhelming to me but there have been a handful of solid plays. 

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