How did Allen not dominate in college?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

We wouldn't have got him otherwise.  Josh Rosen anyone?

I don’t get the impression he was on the bills board. 

[Alphadawg7]

23 hours ago, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

If the majority of the teams felt that way he would've never made it to 7 as the 3rd QB selected. Josh is a product of a GREAT job of scouting and getting to know the player by the Bills, and more importantly, a dude who refuses to be second best. 

Wrong.  He was right up to the draft neck and neck with Baker to go number 1 overall.  You realize there 5 QBs teams saw as top pro prospects, and at that time was considered the best QB draft class in 30 years.  And Josh went 3rd, and almost went number 1.  

[LanderPoke]

On 10/20/2022 at 10:12 AM, DCOrange said:

understood the skepticism around him, but the physical tools were obviously off the charts, and he was one of the few QBs that was actually making full field reads in college (granted he was too slow at it at the time).

Yeah, this is a great point. Wyoming runs a "pro style" offense, which is an immense sourse of pride for Craig Bohl. Wyoming doesn't have the punishing O linemen to run it effectively. Really few colloges do. And I would trade UW's offense for just about anything else at this point. But I think learning a pro style offense did help Josh somewhat step in right away and keep his head above water in Buffalo.

Edited October 21, 2022 by LanderPoke

[LanderPoke]

Another reason I knew Josh would be great is his leadership. There was a question asked to him in college, what is your favorite class, he said Spanish because he wanted to talk and communicate better with the migrant farm workers at the Allen farm so he could get to know them and joke with them. He said the migrants are awesome people. This indicated to  me he really cares about people and is humble and a really decent person.

Edited October 21, 2022 by LanderPoke

[DCOrange]

49 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I don’t get the impression he was on the bills board. 

Don't we know for sure at this point that Rosen was the #4 QB on their board that year? I'm pretty sure the draft board leaked out that year that showed Allen was #1, Rosen was #4, and Lamar was off the board.

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I don’t get the impression he was on the bills board. 

perhaps I should have said Darnold.  He went off the big board first.  Liked the "Josh" connection.

[djp14150]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:16 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

playing for wyoming 

how many Wyoming players are even drafted?

system fit/ quality around him

poor coaching in player development

 

he went to a big time college school he would have bern on the map and everyone ranking for him at 1st OA.

 

its a matter of time before the football stadium is named after him at Wyoming

 

 

 

 

 

[Nihilarian]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

Leading up to that draft there were stories about Allen’s recall abilities and how he was wowing teams on the white board. But we hear these things about guys every year it seems so we don’t give it much thought. But a couple months ago Tasker was relaying a story Daboll told him about Josh while at the combine. Daboll said that there were about twenty Bills’ staff members in the room when Josh came in for his combine interview. All of them introduced themselves to Allen and then it was 15 minutes of breaking down plays on the whiteboard along with some chit chat, etc. At the end of the meeting, Daboll asked Josh to recall as many names of the people he met when he first walked in and Allen remembered them all. Daboll said he’d never seen anything like that. I was amazed hearing that. But it explains so much about why Allen has developed as a QB like he has. 

I can't recall that I've ever heard of, or have seen a QB work as hard to perfect his craft as Josh Allen. He knew when he was being evaluated for the draft what his faults were and was working on them at that time. 

 

Josh was working with Jordan Palmer before the 2018 NFL draft and he continues to work with Palmer to perfect his craft every offseason since. It was more Palmer working on his mechanics.

 

How smart is Josh Allen? He scored a 37 on the NFL Wonderlic. What does that score mean?

 

https://wonderlictestpractice.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/

 

A score in the 98th percentile or above qualifies a person for Mensa membership.

 

Josh grew up working on the family farm so that is where he probably garnered that amazing work ethic of his. What would you rather do...work on the farm or play football?

 

The kid had no scholarship offers so his first year so he attended Reedly Community college.  Out of high school he was 6'3'' 180 lb scrawny kid so that no scholarship was offered. 

 

 

Yes, that's Derek Carr.

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, DCOrange said:

Don't we know for sure at this point that Rosen was the #4 QB on their board that year? I'm pretty sure the draft board leaked out that year that showed Allen was #1, Rosen was #4, and Lamar was off the board.

 

 

 

Even if that’s real it doesn’t tell me it’s Beane’s draft board. If Rudolph was the only guy left at 7 they take him?

[Victory Formation]

1. The talent around him was not as good as the talent he faced, forcing him to carry Wyomings offense on his own.

 

2. His mechanics were sloppy.

 

3. Coaching was not nearly as good as some of the other prospects received.

 

4. Poor understanding of X’s and O’s.

 

 

Both Baker, Rosen and Darnold had a star studded cast around them and Allen had nothing, but Allen had generational arm strength and the will to never quit and he worked harder than everyone else. Once coaching caught up with his talent he was unstoppable.

[Jackalope89]

8 hours ago, djp14150 said:

playing for wyoming 

how many Wyoming players are even drafted?

system fit/ quality around him

poor coaching in player development

 

he went to a big time college school he would have bern on the map and everyone ranking for him at 1st OA.

 

its a matter of time before the football stadium is named after him at Wyoming

 

 

 

 

 

12 are currently in the NFL.

https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/active-nfl-players-by-college/wyoming/92568

Of that 12;

Gentry, Wilson, Hollister, Granderson, Epps, and Roullier all played with Josh. Gentry, Hollister, and Roullier were on that 2016 offense.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jackalope89

[djp14150]

35 minutes ago, Jackalope89 said:

12 are currently in the NFL.

https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/active-nfl-players-by-college/wyoming/92568

Of that 12;

Gentry, Wilson, Hollister, Granderson, Epps, and Roullier all played with Josh. Gentry, Hollister, and Roullier were on that 2016 offense.

And how many from Alabama?   

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

13 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

1. The talent around him was not as good as the talent he faced, forcing him to carry Wyomings offense on his own.

 

2. His mechanics were sloppy.

 

3. Coaching was not nearly as good as some of the other prospects received.

 

4. Poor understanding of X’s and O’s.

 

 

Both Baker, Rosen and Darnold had a star studded cast around them and Allen had nothing, but Allen had generational arm strength and the will to never quit and he worked harder than everyone else. Once coaching caught up with his talent he was unstoppable.

1a. And he was also playing against second class player’s coaching and talent. 
 

He was very simply a million miles away from where he is now. 

 

 

[DCOrange]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:31 PM, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Even if that’s real it doesn’t tell me it’s Beane’s draft board. If Rudolph was the only guy left at 7 they take him?

I think it was pretty obviously just the QB rankings and it looks to me like it's essentially saying they were willing to take Allen, Darnold, Baker, or Rosen there but nobody else.

[Motorin']

On 10/22/2022 at 6:52 AM, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

1a. And he was also playing against second class player’s coaching and talent. 
 

He was very simply a million miles away from where he is now. 

 

 

 

You're missing the most important aspect that the Bills discovered when scouting him.

 

He had the raw talent at Wyoming to make throws on pure instinct 

that Elway and Marino would never have been able to make. There's tape of him making 1 of 1 throws. 

 

NFL scouts can keep looking for the next Josh Allen, a guy with high athletic upside and a huge arm all they want. But if he doesn't have the same level of raw arm talent, and by that I mean the ability to make elite NFL level throws, they are going to fail. 

 

He was inconsistent hitting the easy throws, not bc he was an innaccurate QB. But bc he hadn't been taught proper mechanics. And he certainly needed to learn how to read defense, and accept taking the give me throws. 

 

 

 

[Jackalope89]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:13 PM, djp14150 said:

And how many from Alabama?   

Well, none of them married their sisters, so I leave that one in your court.

[Albany,n.y.]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:31 PM, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Even if that’s real it doesn’t tell me it’s Beane’s draft board. If Rudolph was the only guy left at 7 they take him?

I don't get the skepticism.  The Tweet is dated before the draft as are some of the replies.  It was confirmed after the draft by Beane that the trade to 5 with Denver was real, with those exact picks being a part of the trade.  However, that Tweet was 20 days before the draft so the order may have changed a little after final visits. As it appears on the board, Mayfield's visit was scheduled for 4/9. https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/report-bills-meeting-with-quarterback-baker-mayfield-next-week/article_a1f6fc77-97c0-5d66-a385-a1528db47e25.html Mayfield will visit the Bills next Monday and Tuesday, April 9 and 10, according to Mike Jones of USA Today.

 

If Rudolph was the only guy left at 7, the Bills wouldn't have traded up.  Look at the board again, the only 3 QBs the Bills were willing to trade up for were in order, Allen, Darnold & Mayfield.  Most likely with no trade & none of the top 4 left by 12, the Bills take Edmunds at 12 & keep picks 21, 53, 56 and 65.  They could have taken Rudolph with one of the 2nd rounders or pick 65 at the top of the 3rd round since all of those picks were above where Pittsburgh picked Rudolph in the 3rd round.  I doubt they would have used pick 21 on Rudolph based on the fact that he fell to the middle of the 3rd round and Beane has proven over the years that he wouldn't have overrated a player by 2 rounds. 

[BigHornWY]

Die hard Wyoming fan here. Apologize, I didn't read through the entire thread, but here are my thoughts. In 2016 when Wyoming played for the MWC title, Josh Allen was incredible, maybe not if you look purely at stats, but he really carried that team to a lot of the wins they had. That 2016 team had a lot of NFL talent (starters and fringe NFL players), including, Josh, Chase Roullier, Tanner Gentry, Jacob Hollister, Brian Hill (who was a beast in college), and Rico Gafford. We all still look back and wonder how this team was not undefeated. The simplest answer is coaching. As much as Bohl gets toted as this magical QB whisperer, he is far from it. Every QB in this system has regressed, including Josh. Coach Bohl is a hard headed old coach that appears to be unwilling to coach to the players he has, rather tries to fit a square peg in a round hole. In Josh's case, the o-line was not very good at pass blocking either year. In 2016, Josh more or less did Josh things, running for his life and making plays. When those aforementioned teammates declared for the NFL or graduated, the only piece left in 2017 was essentially Josh. On top of that, after the hype of potentially going #1 overall and deciding to come back for another year, the coaching staff appeared to try and keep Josh protected in the pocket (which he wasn't) and not really let him run and scramble to make those a-typical Josh Allen plays. 

 

For the people that watched him week in and week out, could tell he was special, the rocket arm, the athletic ability, the cocky/confident leader attitude, was really something. The 2017 team was so bad, absolutely zero run game, no receivers, and always playing in down and distance situations. One big difference between 2016 and 2017, is that the defense in 2016 was terrible and 2017 was actually pretty good. I believe if they even had a marginal D in 2016, that team would have been a lot more successful. I only bring that up because in 2016 Josh had to play from behind often and get in shootouts, which doesn't really let you settle into the plan of the offense,  and in 2017 he had to do everything, with very little help.  A lot goes into stats and domination in a lesser conference, but man, without him those two years, those teams would have been lucky to win 3 or 4 games. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

You're missing the most important aspect that the Bills discovered when scouting him.

 

He had the raw talent at Wyoming to make throws on pure instinct 

that Elway and Marino would never have been able to make. There's tape of him making 1 of 1 throws. 

 

NFL scouts can keep looking for the next Josh Allen, a guy with high athletic upside and a huge arm all they want. But if he doesn't have the same level of raw arm talent, and by that I mean the ability to make elite NFL level throws, they are going to fail. 

 

He was inconsistent hitting the easy throws, not bc he was an innaccurate QB. But bc he hadn't been taught proper mechanics. And he certainly needed to learn how to read defense, and accept taking the give me throws. 

 

 

 

Not missing anything.  They took a enormous gamble and it turned out better than they could have imagined. That is the main point. 

 

The historical list of NFL busts is littered with QBs who made some incredible throws in college.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not missing anything.  They took a enormous gamble and it turned out better than they could have imagined. That is the main point. 

 

The historical list of NFL busts is littered with QBs who made some incredible throws in college.  

 

Not it's not. 

[smward8]

This thread is really interesting.

You can discuss the value of statistics until the cows come home, but in the end, they're just a tool to narrow the field.  

Watching film of all the games is yet another tool to narrow that field some more, as are interviews, etc.  

 

In the end, Allen was an educated gamble, and thank our lucky stars, one that has paid off enormously.  

 

I believe that once he was in the Bills organization, they - and him - managed to do everything well in terms of developing his skills to go along with his natural abilities.  If I remember correctly, Allen finally came to realize (1) you could throw a pass away rather than forcing it, (2) a drive is a series of steps, some small, some big, (3) you have to trust your teammates to do their jobs, something I'm not sure he did at Wyoming, and (4) you don't have to be a hero on every play. 

  If nothing else, he has shown that extraordinary physical gifts are not enough.  You still have to learn how to use them, seek out and accept constructive criticism to improve on them, and put in the effort to make those improvements part of your game. 

  As an added bonus, the Bills coaches added structure and a reasonable set of expectations for his growth and continuity.  

 

 The results are abundantly clear today.   They were only hopes five years ago. 

 

   

[dakrider]

I watched Allen at Wyoming.  The big things that stood out was his big play making ability and the ability to maneuver around the pocket.  One thing he did have trouble was the short little 5-10 yard throws.  But really it's fairly apparent the player Josh was during his first year with the Bills. He was not a polished player by any means but most people could see the talent and potential.  Josh would try to do to much sometimes and either make a bad play, or else a big play. Those were the things where he needed to trust his teammates more and accept the plays the defense would give you.  Bills didn't have a great O-line or very good receivers in Josh first year and it really showed.  It took Josh getting good coaching and experience, and then getting Diggs. After that everyone could see what he could do with some weapons. 

[C.Biscuit97]

I saw this the other day. Dude is like a different human being than this goofy guy running.  His transition to being a dominant nfl player is one of the most impressive things I have ever seen. I cannot give enough credit to him and the bills. I wake up everyday and can’t believe how awesome our qb is.

 

 

[Whkfc]

29 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I saw this the other day. Dude is like a different human being than this goofy guy running.  His transition to being a dominant nfl player is one of the most impressive things I have ever seen. I cannot give enough credit to him and the bills. I wake up everyday and can’t believe how awesome our qb is.

 

 

 

 

Omg my 10 year old son runs like that.