Poor coaching by McDermott is becoming a theme

[Billz4ever]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Is it not reasonable to expect a NFL player to be able to snap the ball??? If that is the excuse it is laughable. Allen should have been under center and it should have been a QB sneak. 

A shovel pass is a nice play there too but it should have been a QB sneak. That is on McDermott not telling his rookie OC what to do. 

Other than that play, I dont have much of an issue with McD decisions yesterday. And I've never been a McD fan. However, yesterday was really poor execution by the offense not coaching. Josh included. 

You don't know that and neither do I. If they pick up the blitz and Hill finds open space he can run away from everyone. 

It was bad execution not a bad call.

I do know that giving a QB basically forever to find a hole against a secondary without both starting safeties, Dane and Tre is probably going to end worse than if you put pressure on the QB, which is supposed to be a strength of this team this season.

[KHAN]

5 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Is it not reasonable to expect a NFL player to be able to snap the ball??? If that is the excuse it is laughable.

YEAH!!!!!! What does Eric Wood know about offensive line play?????

 

 

derp

[mannc]

31 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Josh in the shotgun on 2nd and goal from inside the one isn't a problem for you?  A 6'5" 250 lb QB can't get less than a yard on a QB sneak with 3 cracks at it? 

 

And given some of the stupid challenges I've seen McD make, to not challenge the Gabe catch/no catch is mind boggling.  Even the announcers were arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out. That play potentially puts points on the board.  It's not like it was just challenging some 5 yard catch at your own 30, which wouldn't even be a first down.

3rd and 22 with a 3-man rush is on the coaching staff.

 

Having Josh in the shotgun on 2nd and goal from inside the one is on the coaching staff.

 

Not challenging the Gabe catch/no catch considering some of the dumb challenges McD has done, especially when the announcers were arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out, is on the coaching staff.

 

Making Josh throw the ball 63 times in a game is on the coaching staff.

The challenge would have failed and the Bills would have had one less time out at the end.  It would have been a terrible decision.  I agree with you re Josh in the shotgun…

[Billz4ever]

Just now, mannc said:

The challenge would have failed and the Bills would have had one less time out at the end.  It would have been a terrible decision.  I agree with you re Josh in the shotgun…

How do you know the challenge would fail?  The announcers were even arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out and they certainly weren't pulling for the Bills in that game. 

[mannc]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

How do you know the challenge would fail?  The announcers were even arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out and they certainly weren't pulling for the Bills in that game. 

That’s not the rule…you have to control the ball for more than a millisecond with both feet in and he never controlled the ball.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

That’s not the rule…you have to control the ball for more than a millisecond with both feet in and he never controlled the ball.

That is a catch.  You make the refs say it's not especially when it's a play that would put points on the board.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[TheFunPolice]

McDermott is the defensive version of Andy Reid. The guy is an AMAZING schemer on defense and can game plan and draw up great stuff for players. That's 90% of the gig, and he is elite at it. 

 

However, this team can be very sloppy, and coaching decisions often very questionable. But usually we steamroll teams so it doesn't matter. 

 

Look at the Rams game. We turned the ball over a few times but it made no difference. It seems like every time we get a 15 yard PF penalty on offense 2 plays later it's a first down anyway. We're getting used to nothing mattering because in the end we score 30+ points.  

 

Even yesterday, with all the injuries coming in on defense AND many more during the game, Waddle and Hill did very little overall. That's scheme and roster depth, and the coaches deserve a ton of credit there. 

 

But this time around, being sloppy DID cost them. We left a minimum of 13 points on the field: the circus act before the half, not punching it on with 3 tries on the 1 yard line, and Bass missing the FG. We were also moving the ball again on the final drive but ran out of time. 

 

With those 13 points, it's 32-21 Bills. All we needed was ONE of those things and it's a W.

 

That's the story to me: all the injuries, all the mistakes, and it took EVERYTHING to break the Dolphins way to win by 2 points at home when Bills players were going off the field every other play. 

 

 

 

 

[mannc]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

Someone here posted the replay still shots.  He clearly has the ball tucked away.  I can't help you if you can't see that.

I’ll bet Davis acknowledges that he should have held onto it, and he’d be right. There’s no way that was a catch.

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

I’ll bet Davis acknowledges that he should have held onto it, and he’d be right. There’s no way that was a catch.

You said he didn't tuck it away

Quote

"he never controlled the ball."

and on the replay you can clearly see he did.  He also tapped both feet and a split second after he tapped the second foot, the ball came out.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[Bangarang]

28 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Lol - I usually like your one-liners but you're off your game this week.  I don't care whether you call it a "drop" or a "breakup", those are semantics you can play with in the dark by yourself.  He needs to make that catch, period.

It’s not semantics. They are two separate events. 

[buffalonian]

34 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I don’t know why they did that in the Titans games, but Eric Wood said in the pre-game show that goal line snaps under center are the hardest ones.

He’s right. You often have multiple people lined up across you whose job is to try and blow you off the ball as soon as it’s snapped in anticipation of a qb sneak. 

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, mannc said:

I’ll bet Davis acknowledges that he should have held onto it, and he’d be right. There’s no way that was a catch.

 

He did catch it and had control when his left foot touched

 

and when his right foot touched

Edited September 26, 2022 by billsfan1959

[TheFunPolice]

just a good play by the DB. Davis didn't control the ball long enough and it would have been a waste of a challenge. 

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

He did catch it and had control when his left foot touched

 

and when his right foot touched

Can't be anymore clear than that and when it's a play that would potentially put points on the board, you challenge that and make the refs say it wasn't a catch.

 

Give some of the dumb challenges I've seen McD make and then to not challenge this one is simply mind boggling.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[Brand J]

I don’t believe the Bills are poorly coached, not one bit. Do the coaches have moments that don’t put the team in the most advantageous situation? Sure, but the same could be said for every coaching staff in the history of the game. Those moments are more outliers than the norm, hence the team’s success and scoring margin. Don’t forget we went through 17 years of futility and irrelevancy, don’t get spoiled by success.

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

just a good play by the DB. Davis didn't control the ball long enough and it would have been a waste of a challenge. 

Control of the ball and 2 feet down.  Definition of a completed pass.  As soon as his right foot touched, that's a catch and a touchdown.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

He did catch it and had control when his left foot touched

 

and when his right foot touched

I don’t care what still photos show…I’ve watched the replay multiple times and he never sufficiently controlled the ball and there no way that gets reversed.  It would have wasted a crucial TO.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t care what still photos show…I’ve watched the replay multiple times and he never sufficiently controlled the ball and there no way that gets reversed.  It would have wasted a crucial TO.

So your argument is that a catch that is tucked away with 2 feet down is not the definition of a completed pass in the NFL because that's clearly what it shows.

 

And you're also arguing that on a challenge, the ref wouldn't be looking for the ball being tucked away with two feet in bounds, again, which it clearly shows.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[mannc]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

So your argument is that a catch that is tucked away with 2 feet down is not the definition of a completed pass in the NFL because that's clearly what it shows.

The ball was never “tucked away”.

[Metal Man]

Why is the "McD can't win close games" argument only considering 2021 and yesterday?

 

With a look back through 2017, albeit a quick one, looks to me like McD is .500 in 1 score games which would make sense seeing a lot of those types of games are determined by one bounce going your way or not.

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, mannc said:

The ball was never “tucked away”.

 

You have an interesting definition of the ball being "tucked away" then if the ball clearly being secured in his left arm is apparent when his left foot touches and then when his right foot does doesn't count as exactly that.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[Shake_My_Head]

Yet another exceptionally useful thread.

 

The Bills gameplan seemed like a smart one to me.   Rely on long, time-consuming drives to keep the short-handed defense off the field.   Just put the game on the back of your best player and minimize exposure to the backup secondary players

 

And it nearly worked if three miscues don't happen (Josh mishandling a snap at the end of the first half, Josh missing McKenzie for a TD on fourth and 1, and McKenzie running out of bounds on the last play, rather than turning up field to gain extra yards).   Also, the Bills likely win that game if the temperature was 10 degrees cooler and so many guys don't go down with heat problems.

.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Shake_My_Head

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Yet another exceptionally useful thread.

 

The Bills gameplan seemed like a smart one to me.   Rely on long, time-consuming drives to keep the short-handed defense off the field.   Just put the game on the back of your best player and minimize exposure to the backup secondary players

 

And it nearly worked if three miscues don't happen (Josh mishandling a snap at the end of the first half, Josh missing McKenzie for a TD on fourth and 1, and McKenzie running out of bounds on the last play, rather than turning up field to gain extra yards).   Also, the Bills likely win that game if the temperature was 10 degrees cooler and so many guys don't go down with heat problems.

.

 

 

I don't agree.  Their gameplan clearly worked against them.  Yeah, they controlled the ball, but it completely gassed the O-line and the receivers.  Conventional wisdom is that it's the Defense that would be out of gas spending 42 minutes on the field.  It was our team that was gassed and when a team is gassed, mistakes are going to happen. 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Yet another exceptionally useful thread.

 

The Bills gameplan seemed like a smart one to me.   Rely on long, time-consuming drives to keep the short-handed defense off the field.   Just put the game on the back of your best player and minimize exposure to the backup secondary players

 

And it nearly worked if three miscues don't happen (Josh mishandling a snap at the end of the first half, Josh missing McKenzie for a TD on fourth and 1, and McKenzie running out of bounds on the last play, rather than turning up field to gain extra yards).   Also, the Bills likely win that game if the temperature was 10 degrees cooler and so many guys don't go down with heat problems.

.

 

 

Just FYI…if McKenzie runs straight for the sideline, it’s a 65-yard fg attempt.

[Billsatlastin2018]

13 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Can't be anymore clear than that and when it's a play that would potentially put points on the board, you challenge that and make the refs say it wasn't a catch.

 

Give some of the dumb challenges I've seen McD make and then to not challenge this one is simply mind boggling.

I think you challenge if you think there is incontrovertible evidence the other way or pretty good evidence!

 

e.g. Kelce was ruled to have caught a 2 point convert to have them go up by 4 in the Colts game- nearing the end. Didn’t matter ultimately as the Chiefs blew it. But at the time, it was yuuuge for the -3.5 number and I had it.

 

During the multiple reviews, even though I personally wanted it to stand, we all agreed- NO chance his knee didn’t hit the ground before the stretch to break the plane. 
 

But the reviewers upheld it! 
 

Meaning? A close, critical play should always be challenged, because you can’t be sure the reviewers will do it properly. Davis was one of those.

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Billsatlastin2018 said:

I think you challenge if you think there is incontrovertible evidence the other way or pretty good evidence!

 

e.g. Kelce was ruled to have caught a 2 point convert to have them go up by 4 in the Colts game- nearing the end. Didn’t matter ultimately as the Chiefs blew it. But at the time, it was yuuuge for the -3.5 number and I had it.

 

During the multiple reviews, even though I personally wanted it to stand, we all agreed- NO chance his knee didn’t hit the ground before the stretch to break the plane. 
 

But the reviewers upheld it! 
 

Meaning? A close, critical play should always be challenged, because you can’t be sure the reviewers will do it properly. Davis was one of those.

When the announcers were even arguing that maybe a catch, when they certainly weren't cheering for the Bills in the game, should've been a clear indication there should've been another look at the play.  In full speed, I can completely understand it seeming as though Gabe didn't have it, but that's why we have challenges and replay w/slo-mo.

[billsfan1959]

15 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t care what still photos show…I’ve watched the replay multiple times and he never sufficiently controlled the ball and there no way that gets reversed.  It would have wasted a crucial TO.

 

I have watched the replay over and over myself. Here it is. The first replay after the play clearly shows Davis controlled the ball and it was not dislodged until after his second foot had already touched.

 

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I have watched the replay over and over myself. Here it is. The first replay after the play clearly shows Davis controlled the ball and it was not dislodged until after his second foot had already touched.

 

Thanks for the video, but nothing about that looks like a catch.  And Davis doesn’t even argue it…

Edited September 26, 2022 by mannc

[Billz4ever]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I have watched the replay over and over myself. Here it is. The first replay after the play clearly shows Davis controlled the ball and it was not dislodged until after his second foot had already touched.

 

LOL, the NFL had YouTube block it here.  You can still watch it on youtube by clicking the link.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[WideLeft]

17 hours ago, Einstein said:

I am a member of a general NFL forum and they have told me for the better part of a year now that McDermott holds our roster back. I’ve brushed off these comments for some time, but i’m starting to see their point.

 

- 0 and 7 in one score games the last two seasons

 

- Challenging a clear Titans catch last week was indefensible

 

- Not challenging a potential Gabe Davis TD this week was indefensible 

 

- Playing shallow coverage on 3rd and 22, allowing TWO seperate receivers to get open deep, is indefensible

 

- Not having your WR’s ready to go down with enough time to spike the ball

 

- Don’t even get me started on 13 seconds

 

- Our inability to win short yardage situations for several years is indefensible.

 

- We as a team seem to have removed QB sneak from the play book. We never run it. Ever. See this tweet for how I feel about that. Hard to think that’s not a directive from the top, seeing that two separate OC’s refuse to call it.

 

 

I agree with some of your points here.  Clearly.  But just to muck it up a bit, if his challenge of a clear Titans catch last week was indefensible, how the hell wouldn't a challenge on this week's Gabe Davis NOT touchdown catch also not be indefensible if he challenged it?  It was clearly NOT a touchdown.

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, WideLeft said:

I agree with some of your points here.  Clearly.  But just to muck it up a bit, if his challenge of a clear Titans catch last week was indefensible, how the hell wouldn't a challenge on this week's Gabe Davis NOT touchdown catch also not be indefensible if he challenged it?  It was clearly NOT a touchdown.

Because this would've been a challenge of a play that puts points on the board and where replay clearly shows control and 2 feet down. What happened after the 2nd foot touched is irrelevant per the definition of a catch according to NFL rules. No different than if a RB fumbled the ball after the ball broke the plane of the goal line.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Billz4ever

[billsfan1959]

Just now, mannc said:

Thanks for the video, but nothing about that looks like a catch.  

 

Well you are certainly welcome to your opinion. To me, he clearly had control of the ball and got both feet down before the defender knocked it loose. 

 

I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, WideLeft said:

I agree with some of your points here.  Clearly.  But just to muck it up a bit, if his challenge of a clear Titans catch last week was indefensible, how the hell wouldn't a challenge on this week's Gabe Davis NOT touchdown catch also not be indefensible if he challenged it?  It was clearly NOT a touchdown.

 

 Because worst case scenario, we have an extra long timeout at a time of need.

 

That was a 15+ play drive and there were literally injury timeouts because our linemen were getting overheated.

 

We were close to the endzone and in a pivotal point in the game. Would an extended timeout that could potentially result in a touchdown, or at worst give our players a much needed break be a bad thing? I don’t think so.

 

It would have been a much more efficient use of a timeout than the one we took on the very next drive, closer to midfield, and on a random first down.

[MiltonWaddams]

13 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I don't agree.  Their gameplan clearly worked against them.  Yeah, they controlled the ball, but it completely gassed the O-line and the receivers.  Conventional wisdom is that it's the Defense that would be out of gas spending 42 minutes on the field.  It was our team that was gassed and when a team is gassed, mistakes are going to happen. 

So, in saying that, you would’ve preferred short and fast drives to keep the offense fresh and to have had the undermanned defense on the field more? Nope. That would’ve been a very bad game plan. I am sure that Miami did not have that in mind either.

Edited September 26, 2022 by MiltonWaddams

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Well you are certainly welcome to your opinion. To me, he clearly had control of the ball and got both feet down before the defender knocked it loose. 

 

I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

Whether it’s a catch or not, do you honestly think there is any chance that call gets reversed?  
 

Why doesn’t Davis (or any other Bill on the field) argue the call?

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, MiltonWaddams said:

So, in saying that, you would’ve preferred short and fast drives to keep the offense fresh and to have had the undermanned defense on the field more? Nope. That would’ve been a very bad game plan. I am sure that Miami did not have that in mind either.

Miami's offense scored 21 points in 18 minutes.  Pretty sure our offense is better than theirs.

 

We killed our own O-line and receivers.

[TheBrownBear]

18 hours ago, FieldGeneral said:

0-7 in close games since last season isn't good. 

On the flipside, it's been 21 months since we lost a game by more than a single score. 

[Billz4ever]

Just now, mannc said:

Whether it’s a catch or not, do you honestly think there is any chance that call gets reversed?  
 

Why doesn’t Davis (or any other Bill on the field) argue the call?

Because they're gassed and barely even able to stay in the game.

[TheBrownBear]

12 minutes ago, mannc said:

Thanks for the video, but nothing about that looks like a catch.  And Davis doesn’t even argue it…

Yeah, not sure what these guys are seeing, but that absolutely was not complete control on Davis's part.  Can't even pin that on Gabe, since he even turned to shield his body from the defender and put the ball in the hand furthest from the defender as he was bringing it in.  It was just a hell of a play by the Miami DB. 

[BullBuchanan]

Watching McD in close games reminds me of: