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If LB Devin Lloyd is available at Pick 25......


Special K
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1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Beane said, "Yeah, we definitely do consider him a core building block moving forward." 

 

"Definitely." "Core building block."

 

As for the season-ending PC, I don't see any reason to think it was faint praise. Here's what the News said Beane said:

 

 

"'I thought Tremaine did a really good job again,' the GM said at his end-of-season news conference. 'His leadership, Tremaine is a quieter guy, probably if you compare him and Josh (Allen), they're both the quarterbacks of their side of the ball. Tremaine is naturally quieter, more lead by example. But when he speaks, guys do listen.

 

“I think, year by year, he's more comfortable being that guy, being that alpha, even though maybe it's not innately natural to him. Tremaine has done some really good things. I thought his physicality improved this year … getting off blocks, I thought all that improved. There's still things that he wants to get better at and we think going into next year, he's a young player still, but going into year five, we think he'll be even better.”

 

Fair enough to say he's not giving a completely positive take there, but it's not weak either.

 

If we do draft Devin Lloyd, it'll be very very clear what they think. I don't think they want to do that. My guess would be an LB in Round 3 - 5, something like that, hoping to replace Klein and maybe hope he turns out to be good enough to do more.

 

Yes, the January presser was definitely not the typical response when asked about Edmunds. I didn't say it was weak, I said it was somewhat more circumspect. And it was. It was a marked difference in tone from where they have been before. Maybe that is why he went so strong at the Combine which I agree was more the "par for the course" Beane answer on Tremaine. Effusive and talking about him as a quiet leader. I still think they really want Edmunds to work out. But my sense is that there are more doubts now than there were a year ago. I think the tone of what he said in January demonstrated that.

 

On draft in a linebacker I agree with you. Won't be rounds one or two, but they will take a mid-round guy. I don't know that would be definitive either way on Tremaine. But I now suspect he is playing on the option this year. That does, in its own way, indicate that their belief has weakened to some extent. If they are willing to let year 5 play out on a guy they drafted in the first round when what they have said and done generally is draft, develop, re-sign... then it indicates some concerns exist in the building. Despite Beane seeming definitive at the combine on the building block point. 

 

The only way for them to demonstrate that they are still truly all in on Edmunds is to extend him this offseason. That could still happen. It wouldn't shock me if it does. But my instinct now is that they are not going to. I still think they really like Tremaine. I'm not sure I still think they are quite as in love with him as they were. 

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7 hours ago, mrags said:

If he does a ton more than fans know, how do you know he does it? Did someone tell you he does it? I’ve gone over this ad nauseam. No coach or teammate will ever say anything bad about a player like ever. They will always support them no matter what. Even ones that we know are terrible. 

 

 

 

Oh, please. 

 

We know it because they've specifically gone out of their way to say it.

 

Your argument here is deeply off the mark. When Beane doesn't want to say something good, he and McDermott have both shown a mastery of Crash Davis speak where they say nice things that mean nothing.

 

They go immediately from commenting on the player to commenting on the room. Asked about an a lineman they'll say, "Well, we really like the OL room. Of course, you need improvement everywhere but overall we're quite happy with things in that room."

 

And they've said plenty of times things that were not complimentary at all about the players. No, they wouldn't ever say, "He sucks and we have no respect for him," of course.

 

But remember when they said this, ""It was never where the opposing defense was like, ‘Man we’ve really got to stop their tight ends from going off,' " Beane said. They have zero problems indicating unhappiness.

 

Your argument, that they can't say bad things, is what always comes up when somebody disagrees with something Beane or McDermott says. They have a history of being willing to say things that aren't all that nice sometimes, and of throwing out the sports cliches that mean nothing. "Player X, we'd go to war with him. I want him beside me in an alley fight. I want him in my foxhole. He gives 110% every day. He's really a football player."

 

When you see those, you know they're not willing to give specifics. They've given specifics over and over again with Edmunds, most recently that he's definitely a core building block moving forwards.

 

 

Edited by Thurman#1
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5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes, the January presser was definitely not the typical response when asked about Edmunds. I didn't say it was weak, I said it was somewhat more circumspect. And it was. It was a marked difference in tone from where they have been before. Maybe that is why he went so strong at the Combine which I agree was more the "par for the course" Beane answer on Tremaine. Effusive and talking about him as a quiet leader. I still think they really want Edmunds to work out. But my sense is that there are more doubts now than there were a year ago. I think the tone of what he said in January demonstrated that.

 

On draft in a linebacker I agree with you. Won't be rounds one or two, but they will take a mid-round guy. I don't know that would be definitive either way on Tremaine. But I now suspect he is playing on the option this year. That does, in its own way, indicate that their belief has weakened to some extent. If they are willing to let year 5 play out on a guy they drafted in the first round when what they have said and done generally is draft, develop, re-sign... then it indicates some concerns exist in the building. Despite Beane seeming definitive at the combine on the building block point. 

 

The only way for them to demonstrate that they are still truly all in on Edmunds is to extend him this offseason. That could still happen. It wouldn't shock me if it does. But my instinct now is that they are not going to. I still think they really like Tremaine. I'm not sure I still think they are quite as in love with him as they were. 

 

 

You certainly could be right. 

 

My guess was that they would extend him when they feel the time was right, without feeling any particular hurry, depending on how much he was asking.

 

And that the odds dropped a bit after the cap impact from bringing in Von Miller and putting ourselves on shakier ground there.

 

I don't think, personally, that it makes sense that they were circumspect early and then changed things around by being much stronger. If they'd wanted to be circumspect, they'd have left things as they were.  Looked to me like both are quite positive with certainly the second being more powerfully so.

 

 

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17 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Some of these stats can be misleading.  I think his value is in clogging the middle of the field passing lanes with his size and speed.  He is not often asked to play man coverage.  He also does a good job roaming sideline to sideline on wide runs/short passes.  Like all inside LBs, he is affected if the DL allows OL to reach the second level and block him on inside runs.  His instincts may not b perfect, but I think the criticism of him on this board is overblown and is born from the misconceptions that all first round picks should be game changers and are slam dunks.  
 

i see Edmunds as a good starter that is a positive in the Bills’ preferred zone pass D and can impact outside run game as well.  He is not at his best as an inside run stuffer, but if DL can keep him clean, it would help a lot.

 

Now, is that enough to pay him a big contract next year?  I’m not sure,  but I think that Bills think much more highly of him than this message board does.

 

I know that for his detractors this won’t matter, but he doesn’t turn 24 until this May.  That is only a year (for some 2) older than this year’s rookie crop.

Wifey graduated from Virginia Tech, so we saw Tremaine play in person in college, and were delighted the Bills drafted him.  Bought his jersey.

 

That said, it boils down to production vs salary.   Is he an adequate MLB?  Sure.    Is he worth $12.7 million this year, and higher than that in 2023 and 2024?   

 

AND there is another factor Bills fans don't pay attention to.   Matt Milano's cap hit in 2023 and 2024 is $13 million.   How can the Bills pay Tremaine say $14 million a year, and Matt Milano $13 million a year and Poyer $10 million a year and Micah Hyde $10 million a year and Tre White $16 million and Von Mille a gazzilon?

 

Something has to give.  Some of the positions on the defense need to be players on a rookie contract.   Maybe Beane keeps Tremaine past 2022.  But maybe he can't.

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3 hours ago, Beerball said:

So, you let him walk for a comp pick which at best is a third vs. the OPs scenario where he garners a second?

 

I do, I don't potentially screw the defense this year for a pick that may or may not pan out. I don't think Edmunds is bad and I take issue with people who think he can be replaced with a rookie without significant dropoff. 

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1 minute ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I do, I don't potentially screw the defense this year for a pick that may or may not pan out. I don't think Edmunds is bad and I take issue with people who think he can be replaced with a rookie without significant dropoff. 

Yet he (Edmonds) started as a rookie.

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I definitely think that the Bills cannot afford to pay Edmunds what he will be looking for being a round 1 pick and i think that this would be a good get for the reasons the you have said we would get another first round LB for 5 years on a rookie contract which again as you said may make the D even better .

 

It would be nice to have Edmunds around but i have always thought he was playing in the wrong position because he has tot think to much & can't just play to his instincts . Edmunds will be a really good player for a long time but i just don't think the Bills will have the cap space to keep him & it would be a good move for all if he was traded as you said .

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8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Oh, please. 

 

We know it because they've specifically gone out of their way to say it.

 

Your argument here is deeply off the mark. When Beane doesn't want to say something good, he and McDermott have both shown a mastery of Crash Davis speak where they say nice things that mean nothing.

 

They go immediately from commenting on the player to commenting on the room. Asked about an a lineman they'll say, "Well, we really like the OL room. Of course, you need improvement everywhere but overall we're quite happy with things in that room."

 

And they've said plenty of times things that were not complimentary at all about the players. No, they wouldn't ever say, "He sucks and we have no respect for him," of course.

 

But remember when they said this, ""It was never where the opposing defense was like, ‘Man we’ve really got to stop their tight ends from going off,' " Beane said. They have zero problems indicating unhappiness.

 

Your argument, that they can't say bad things, is what always comes up when somebody disagrees with something Beane or McDermott says. They have a history of being willing to say things that aren't all that nice sometimes, and of throwing out the sports cliches that mean nothing. "Player X, we'd go to war with him. I want him beside me in an alley fight. I want him in my foxhole. He gives 110% every day. He's really a football player."

 

When you see those, you know they're not willing to give specifics. They've given specifics over and over again with Edmunds, most recently that he's definitely a core building block moving forwards.

 

 

Whatever. Believe what you want. I am firmly in the camp that he will not be a Bill after this season at the very least. I believe they may be trying to shop him because they’d rather get something than nothing by letting him walk via FA at the end of the year. 
 

I also believe he’s pretty much garbage and always someone that you can look at, as making bad plays, bad angles, tackling 5 yards downfield because of poor decisions, out of position, and unable to grasp what a MLB is actually supposed to do. That’s my opinion. 
 

the only reason I see them keeping him is because they are all hands on deck this year and wouldn’t want to replace a major piece of the defense in a SuperBowl year. Which I will concede may be beneficial, but I also have such little faith in him as a playmaker that it probably hurts is more than if we were to draft someone like Lloyd. 
 

Im done arguing with you. It’s obvious neither of us is going to change each other’s minds on this. So have a good day. 

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5 minutes ago, Beerball said:

So, that’s what has stopped him from making impact plays on the field?

 

I think it's pretty clear we have different views on Edmunds, I doubt you will convince me he sucks and I doubt I will convince you he is competent. 

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I wonder if they are waiting to see what impact Von can have on him and what Von’s thoughts are on him after being together for a bit. 
 

Von is known as a great player, obviously, but also a great leader. He got AD to be more vocal and leadership-confident. Maybe the Bills are looking to see if he can do the same for Tremaine as well as player coach him up a bit.

 

Tin foil hat, I know, but just a thought that occurred to me.

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17 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I think it's pretty clear we have different views on Edmunds, I doubt you will convince me he sucks and I doubt I will convince you he is competent. 

I didn’t say he sucked. He hasn’t lived up to his billing. From almost day one I’ve wished they would play him at OLB, but what do I know? It’s now to late for that experiment.

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50 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I think it's pretty clear we have different views on Edmunds, I doubt you will convince me he sucks and I doubt I will convince you he is competent. 

 

Its really not about whether Edmunds sucks or not, its about if you want to pay Edmunds 17 million per year for the next 5 years, or draft a comparable and most likely better player in Lloyd who will be on a rookie contract for the next 5 years. If possible, I prefer option number 2.

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In the unlikely scenario that Lloyd is available, I would draft him and keep both. Because Injuries happen. Competition is good. I don't think we survive really well with #44 as a starter. JMO. Though Dotson will probably get first crack if Edmunds gets hurt, He doesn't look like anything special.  Depth in the middle and at CB seems like a logical goal early in the draft. Remember, there could be many cuts of RB's, CB's, and LB's after the draft. Bottom Line-----> I trust our staff to fill those holes with Buffalo type Men/Players.

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On 4/12/2022 at 8:34 AM, newcam2012 said:

What do you and or Beane think he does well?  He's a solid play caller is what you are saying? Maybe he'd make a good coach? 

 

Edmunds is comparable to the freakish speed burner receiver who has brick hands. Great athleticism but his instincts are God awful too many times. Hes just not dependable and the lack of big plays is icing on the cake. 

 

Beane certainly knows more than me but he's not always correct either. Thos could very well be the case with Edmunds. Sometimes the fans eyeball test is truly a good parameter of accuracy. 

 

 

Yeah, we get it. You don't like him. 

 

The people who coach him do. He calls the plays well in an extremely complicated system, he has terrific range, he is most of the reason teams just don't throw to the middle much at all, and that causes the QB to have to go to the next read, giving the rushers a better chance.

 

You know all this.

 

Correct, Beane's not perfect. But in this case, his opinion of a guy who's been there four years, when Beane has access to not just the film but to the locker room, the practice fields, the assignments on each play and the coaches grades, he's far far more likely to be right than people on the internet.

 

5 hours ago, Special K said:

 

Its really not about whether Edmunds sucks or not, its about if you want to pay Edmunds 17 million per year for the next 5 years, or draft a comparable and most likely better player in Lloyd who will be on a rookie contract for the next 5 years. If possible, I prefer option number 2.

 

 

It's also about the fact that $17 million a year is pure and utter guesswork. That's probably somewhere close to what he could get if he goes elsewhere but plenty of Bills on this team have given a team discount.

 

And yet another factor you're not addressing is the opportunity cost of drafting Lloyd. That would mean we couldn't draft someone there at positions where we have a real and immediate need, such as WR, CB, IOL.

 

If it is $17 mill he demands, I'm with you. In that case let him go.

 

Bringing in Von Miller changed their cap calculus. They haven't really had to let anyone go that they desperately wanted to keep since they straightened out the cap. I remember Beane was rueing have to let Robert Woods go, but since then not so much. That may change now. They have significantly fewer contracts they can squeeze some cap cash out of then they have since they straightened out the cap. I think Miller will be worth it, but there's a downside.

Edited by Thurman#1
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Devin Lloyd?  Yes please, even if there are long term plans for Tremaine.  Tremaine needs a huge season this year in order for CONSIDERATION of a large extension.  If he falls flat, he's out. Pretty simple!

 

In any case, I'd be extremely happy to see Devin in Buffalo.  Just thinking about that KC game, I'd love to see a more stout defense......  And Kelce is one heck of a TE.  

 

We need to counter that.

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17 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Oh, please. 

 

We know it because they've specifically gone out of their way to say it.

 

Your argument here is deeply off the mark. When Beane doesn't want to say something good, he and McDermott have both shown a mastery of Crash Davis speak where they say nice things that mean nothing.

 

They go immediately from commenting on the player to commenting on the room. Asked about an a lineman they'll say, "Well, we really like the OL room. Of course, you need improvement everywhere but overall we're quite happy with things in that room."

 

And they've said plenty of times things that were not complimentary at all about the players. No, they wouldn't ever say, "He sucks and we have no respect for him," of course.

 

But remember when they said this, ""It was never where the opposing defense was like, ‘Man we’ve really got to stop their tight ends from going off,' " Beane said. They have zero problems indicating unhappiness.

 

Your argument, that they can't say bad things, is what always comes up when somebody disagrees with something Beane or McDermott says. They have a history of being willing to say things that aren't all that nice sometimes, and of throwing out the sports cliches that mean nothing. "Player X, we'd go to war with him. I want him beside me in an alley fight. I want him in my foxhole. He gives 110% every day. He's really a football player."

 

When you see those, you know they're not willing to give specifics. They've given specifics over and over again with Edmunds, most recently that he's definitely a core building block moving forwards.

This is spot on and why I doubt they move on from Edmunds.  The compliments Beane gave him at the combine surprised me because it just gave Edmund's agent more leverage.  

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46 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we get it. You don't like him. 

 

The people who coach him do. He calls the plays well in an extremely complicated system, he has terrific range, he is most of the reason teams just don't throw to the middle much at all, and that causes the QB to have to go to the next read, giving the rushers a better chance.

 

You know all this.

 

Correct, Beane's not perfect. But in this case, his opinion of a guy who's been there four years, when Beane has access to not just the film but to the locker room, the practice fields, the assignments on each play and the coaches grades, he's far far more likely to be right than people on the internet.

 

 

 

It's also about the fact that $17 million a year is pure and utter guesswork. That's probably somewhere close to what he could get if he goes elsewhere but plenty of Bills on this team have given a team discount.

 

And yet another factor you're not addressing is the opportunity cost of drafting Lloyd. That would mean we couldn't draft someone there at positions where we have a real and immediate need, such as WR, CB, IOL.

 

If it is $17 mill he demands, I'm with you. In that case let him go.

 

Bringing in Von Miller changed their cap calculus. They haven't really had to let anyone go that they desperately wanted to keep since they straightened out the cap. I remember Beane was rueing have to let Robert Woods go, but since then not so much. That may change now. They have significantly fewer contracts they can squeeze some cap cash out of then they have since they straightened out the cap. I think Miller will be worth it, but there's a downside.

I would just add that Beane drafted him and may not be completely objective. 

 

I'm not saying Edmunds completely sucks. I'll concede he's a good play caller for arguments sake. However, I find it difficult to believe the Bill's couldn't find a solid replacement.

 

Edmund's range is excellent but his instincts are poor. He's out of position often, disappears in many games, and NEVER makes a big play. After four years it's clear he's not even close to being elite. Watch Micah Parsons for eliteness or Bobby Wagner in his prime. I think it's generous to say Edmunds is above average. I see him as mediocre. I'd be surprised and disappointed if he's a Bill next year. I don't even think he's worth 10 mil a year. I see him as a stop gap LB for this year. 

 

 

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