Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Can the Ukrainians make any use at all of historical parallels?
Reading this off Drudge earlier today about the now standard Russian artillery-centric frontal attack (throwback) tactics being employed https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/theyre-in-hell-hail-of-russian-artillery-tests-ukrainian-morale/ar-AAY3MQM, in turn made me think of German General Heinrici’s late WW2 defensive doctrine, that called for pulling all frontline troops in his sector out of the main battle lines being targeted by the Reds, shortly before the artillery barrages started. Then jump from ca. 10km back to re-occupy the main line at the end of the barrages but before the infantry charges that followed. He used this to no small effect in conserving the defensive punch of the relatively paltry numbers assigned to his command, up to the last days of the war. Just some food for thought from the lessons of military history…

(for some reason this link had issues embedding so you may need to copy/paste):
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2017/06/08/masterful-german-defense-battle-of-seelow-heights/

‘To ensure German frontline troops survived the artillery bombardment that typically preceded a major Soviet attack, Heinrici planned to withdraw the men from forward positions the night before the attack and have them wait out the bombardment nearly 10 kilometers behind the front line…Heinrici expected the attack to occur on April 16 based on interrogations of captured Russian soldiers and had taken the necessary steps to shield the Ninth Army from the full fury of the Russian artillery. For the most part, the German infantry stationed in forward positions had pulled back to the third line of the first position the night before and, therefore, survived the rain of Soviet shells. Afterward, Zhukov was roundly criticized by his fellow generals for sticking to the doctrine of using a lengthy preliminary artillery bombardment. “As usual, we stuck to the book and by now the Germans know our methods,” said Colonel General Vasili Kuznetsov, commander of the Third Shock Army. “They pulled back their troops a good eight kilometers. Our artillery hit everything but the enemy.” ‘

[Coffeesforclosers]

16 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Unfortunate (if true)

 

 

U.S. Officials Admit They Have Lied About Ukraine Success and Russian Failures

by Larry Johnson

 

The U.S. and NATO have been lying about what is actually taking place on the ground in Ukraine. For those not familiar with my early writings on the actual situation, go back a look at my previous articles written in March– Is Russia on the Ropes in Ukraine? and Update on the Military Situation in Ukraine. NBC News, not known as a pro-Putin media outlet, published this bombshell this week:

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/u-s-officials-admit-lied-ukraine-success-russian-failures/

 

Call me shocked. Liars lying. Who'd have thought it? Beware of "hitching your wagon" to Neocon/State Dept/Pentagon/Brandon propaganda.

 

What's the bombshell?  The Pentagon called Russian moves around Kyiv a repositioning, not a withdrawal, and said so back in March. They even said those forces were going to the Donbass.  AP, Reuters, Forbes, ABC, all were saying that the Russians were pulling back so they could head over to the Donbass.  Nobody was saying that the Russians were withdrawing because of Ukrainian pressure.   This guy is screaming out an answer to a question nobody asked.

 

But yeah, there is always propaganda in war.  Like the whole crowd who thought the attack on Kyiv was just a feint, that 40,000 Ukrainian troops were going to be cut off and annihilated within 48 hours of the war starting, that Ukraine had been "ground to dirt"...two months ago.  AKA Col. Douglas MacGregor, who the author of article references as an authority.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Tenhigh]

6 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

What's the bombshell?  The Pentagon called Russian moves around Kyiv a repositioning, not a withdrawal, and said so back in March. They even said those forces were going to the Donbass.  AP, Reuters, Forbes, ABC, all were saying that the Russians were pulling back so they could head over to the Donbass.  Nobody was saying that the Russians were withdrawing because of Ukrainian pressure.   This guy is screaming out an answer to a question nobody asked.

 

But yeah, there is always propaganda in war.  Like the whole crowd who thought the attack on Kyiv was just a feint, that 40,000 Ukrainian troops were going to be cut off and annihilated within 48 hours of the war starting, that Ukraine had been "ground to dirt"...two months ago.  AKA Col. Douglas MacGregor, who the author of article references as an authority.

No bombshell in that article, the government is going to only tell people what they want them to hear, especially in a (proxy) war.  What is eye opening to me is how the press is treating it all as fact, especially in the early days. 

but what's weird to me is that the press is publishing that propaganda as fact, especially in the early days of the invasion. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Tenhigh

[Tiberius]

Not sure if just speculation or if he is in the know 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Earth calling Israel! You hear this? Attempted genocide taking place and you are silent. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

31 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Earth calling Israel! You hear this? Attempted genocide taking place and you are silent. 

 

 

Are there any people other than Ukrainians that you don’t hate? 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Everything I say is really stupid 

Yes 

[SoCal Deek]

46 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yes 

Nice Tibs …keep stoking the hate.

[All_Pro_Bills]

20 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Earth calling Israel! You hear this? Attempted genocide taking place and you are silent. 

 

 

Its not much of a choice given no third option, is it?  Either support Putin or support a government employing Nazi militias.  

[Tiberius]

33 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Its not much of a choice given no third option, is it?  Either support Putin or support a government employing Nazi militias.  

That's how you describe Ukraine? Right out of Putin's propaganda book

[All_Pro_Bills]

14 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That's how you describe Ukraine? Right out of Putin's propaganda book

Well in what version of reality are Azov fighters and members of other militias covered head-to-toe in tattoos of swastikas and Nazi SS symbols and Third Reich images not Nazi's or Nazi sympathizers?  I mean, you've got to be freakin' kidding yourself here.

Edited June 8, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well in what version of reality are Azov fighters and members of other militias covered head-to-toe in tattoos of swastikas and Nazi SS symbols and Third Reich images not Nazi's or Nazi sympathizers?  I mean, you've got to be freakin' kidding yourself here.

That's how you define a country? 

 

So American is the land of racists then? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

6 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That's how you define a country? 

 

So American is the land of racists then? 

I'm saying there are Nazi militias in Ukraine.  Why are you so afraid to admit to the truth?  Heck, even they admit they're Nazi's.  Why can't you? 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm saying there are Nazi militias in Ukraine.  Why are you so afraid to admit to the truth?  Heck, even they admit they're Nazi's.  Why can't you? 

 

Because they're the victim and you can't say anything bad about a victim...

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Its not much of a choice given no third option, is it?  Either support Putin or support a government employing Nazi militias.  

So let me get this straight if the United States was invaded by a foreign power and some of the White Nationalist/Neo Nazi/ KKK militias which do exist here helped fight against that invader the U.S. would be the bad guys?

 

Hell go with this "hypothetical" example, would the United States be in the wrong for fighting in a war allied with a mass murdering Communist dictatorship against Nazis?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Warcodered

[All_Pro_Bills]

32 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

So let me get this straight if the United States was invaded by a foreign power and some of the White Nationalist/Neo Nazi/ KKK militias which do exist here helped fight against that invader the U.S. would be the bad guys?

 

Hell go with this "hypothetical" example, would the United States be in the wrong for fighting in a war allied with a mass murdering Communist dictator ship against Nazis?

In those situations there's a clear acknowledgement of the arrangement among the parties involved.  But in my back and forth with my friend Tibs there seems to be a refusal to acknowledge the truth.  All I asked for is an acknowledgment that Nazi militias exist in Ukraine.  And I curiously ask based on the original tweet posted why would Jewish Rabbi's side with Nazi's?  These militias have been engaged in fighting against Russian separatists in Donbas for 8 years running.  And this is hardly the absolute good vs. evil fight for a pure as the driven snow democracy story we're being fed 24/7.  I mean you won't find many references to Nazi or white nationalist elements in the US press in regards to Ukraine even though those militias are likely the difference between winning or losing the fight here.    

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

In those situations there's a clear acknowledgement of the arrangement among the parties involved.  But in my back and forth with my friend Tibs there seems to be a refusal to acknowledge the truth.  All I asked for is an acknowledgment that Nazi militias exist in Ukraine.  And I curiously ask based on the original tweet posted why would Jewish Rabbi's side with Nazi's?  These militias have been engaged in fighting against Russian separatists in Donbas for 8 years running.  And this is hardly the absolute good vs. evil fight for a pure as the driven snow democracy story we're being fed 24/7.  I mean you won't find many references to Nazi or white nationalist elements in the US press in regards to Ukraine even though those militias are likely the difference between winning or losing the fight here.    

They're mostly Ukrainian nationalists using Nazi symbolism.   Of course they gained popularity because some shiite-hole neighbor has been trying to take over part of their country.  But yeah there are Nazis there.  I know some Nigerians who were there for schooling and got stuck were not treated very well because they were black.

 

Ukraine may come out of this stronger and with more equality.  After seeing women, LGBT, and some black volunteers from overseas one would hope some of the racist sentiments would subside.

Who knows though?

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by L Ron Burgundy

[T&C]

Nice work lol

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-radio-hacked-broadcast-ukraine-national-anthem-anti-war-songs-2022-6?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sf-insider-main&fbclid=IwAR0ziI8HRAnniRUru7QaOkNiFNtw4ePrC3qMITVQJkGQTkJr7bfxSiG1STY

[Tiberius]

Oy!! 

Quote

 

LONDON — He may be in the middle of a leadership crisis in Britain and facing pressure from his own Conservative Party lawmakers, but Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s popularity continues to soar in Ukraine.

This week, he was afforded honorary Cossack status by a community in Chernihiv, in northern Ukraine, and dubbed “Borys Chupryna.” The blessing ceremony took place at St. Catherine’s Church, and a certificate of his new status along with a portrait by artists Daria Dobryakova and Yuri Kutilov are on their way to London, Ukrainian media outlets reported.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/09/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news-live-updates/

[ALF]

Poland's president says calls with Russia's Putin are like speaking to Hitler: report

 

Duda made the remark late Wednesday after French President Emmanuel Macron – who has kept up a dialogue with Putin during the Ukraine war – said over the weekend that "we must not humiliate Russia so that the day when the fighting stops we can build an exit ramp through diplomatic means," according to Reuters. 

 

"Did anyone speak like this with Adolf Hitler during World War Two?" Duda reportedly told the German newspaper Bild. "Did anyone say that Adolf Hitler must save face? That we should proceed in such a way that it is not humiliating for Adolf Hitler? I have not heard such voices."

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/poland-russia-ukraine-war-putin-hitler-comparison

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Tiberius said:

 

And they wonder why Nordic countries are moving to get into Nato.  

 

Hopefully Ukraines neighbors will get more financial help from the eu and elsewhere.  Poland for example has absorbed a huge amount of refugees and they aren't exactly rich.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

And they wonder why Nordic countries are moving to get into Nato.  

 

Hopefully Ukraines neighbors will get more financial help from the eu and elsewhere.  Poland for example has absorbed a huge amount of refugees and they aren't exactly rich.  

Help from the EU?  Almost all of these economies are raging dumpster fires that depend on transfer payments from a few stronger economies like Germany,  With the US close behind in conditions deteriorating.  Most observers here are still fixated on the idea Putin is out to reform the Soviet Union or some other territorial conquest.  What he's out to do, with China in the wings, is break the world financial order where the US and Europe call the shots.  Look at today's market action for a clue.  Gold was up $24 US in trading and every major currency lost ground to the US dollar except one.  The Russian Ruble.  The sanctions are working great.  To destroy the economies of the West. 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

16 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Help from the EU?  Almost all of these economies are raging dumpster fires that depend on transfer payments from a few stronger economies like Germany,  With the US close behind in conditions deteriorating.  Most observers here are still fixated on the idea Putin is out to reform the Soviet Union or some other territorial conquest.  What he's out to do, with China in the wings, is break the world financial order where the US and Europe call the shots.  Look at today's market action for a clue.  Gold was up $24 US in trading and every major currency lost ground to the US dollar except one.  The Russian Ruble.  The sanctions are working great.  To destroy the economies of the West. 

 

A few in the east are raging dumpster fires because they were under the ussr's thumb for so long.  Not easy to rebuild after that.  I've been to a few of these countries shortly after communism collapsed and the difference between now and then is immense.

 

And one reason Germany is doing so well is because they looted a lot of countries they invaded in ww2.  Gold, art, you name it they pillaged it.  They've made some amends but only a fraction. 

 

As to Russia you may be right.   I suspect their aims are not quite so high (bit unrealistic) but could be.  I think as Putin finally admitted they are trying to get old lands back and he's blowing off some fireworks before he croaks.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

A few in the east are raging dumpster fires because they were under the ussr's thumb for so long.  Not easy to rebuild after that.  I've been to a few of these countries shortly after communism collapsed and the difference between now and then is immense.

 

And one reason Germany is doing so well is because they looted a lot of countries they invaded in ww2.  Gold, art, you name it they pillaged it.  They've made some amends but only a fraction. 

 

As to Russia you may be right.   I suspect their aims are not quite so high (bit unrealistic) but could be.  I think as Putin finally admitted they are trying to get old lands back and he's blowing off some fireworks before he croaks.

Germany is doing well because they stole artwork almost 3/4 of a century ago? I have to say….you may be right…but I’ve never heard that one. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Germany is doing well because they stole artwork almost 3/4 of a century ago? I have to say….you may be right…but I’ve never heard that one. 

I suspect you're being facetious.  Not quite my point there.  They stole gold reserves and anything they could get their hands on of value.  Many of a certain age in formerly occupied nations hold a grudge still while the young look to Germany for work. 

 

Former eastern bloc countries had it real rough it's hard not to have some sympathy there.  For Poland, Czech,  Slovakia which didn't exist then, Germany either invades or is gifted lands and pillages resources and kills any who dissent.  Then what do they have to look forward to?  Soviet rule which wasn't better and certainly not wanted.   It's a wonder some have recovered as they have.

[ALF]

Putin carries poop case when he travels outside Moscow to hide possible health problems: Report
Putin reportedly collects his fecal matter and urine to dispose of in Moscow

 

"Putin fears the possibility of any information about his health getting into the hands of foreign intelligence services," Rebekah Koffler, president of Doctrine & Strategy Consulting and a former DIA intelligence officer, told Fox News Digital. 

Putin has an 81% approval rating despite scattered protests since the start of the invasion of Ukraine. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-poop-case-moscow-health-problems

[Tiberius]

Evil 

 

 

[B-Man]

3 hours ago, ALF said:

Putin carries poop case when he travels outside Moscow to hide possible health problems: Report
Putin reportedly collects his fecal matter and urine to dispose of in Moscow

 

"Putin fears the possibility of any information about his health getting into the hands of foreign intelligence services," Rebekah Koffler, president of Doctrine & Strategy Consulting and a former DIA intelligence officer, told Fox News Digital. 

Putin has an 81% approval rating despite scattered protests since the start of the invasion of Ukraine. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-poop-case-moscow-health-problems

 

 

Well, I am sure that he doesn't carry it himself.

 

He has his Private Putin Poop Patrol for that.  😎

 

 

[Tiberius]

Two world leaders were screaming about how bad NATO is. Trump and Putin 

[B-Man]

 

 

Back to the thread.

 

Putin given 'urgent medical help' after falling ill while talking to military chiefs, Kremlin insider claims

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10903627/Putin-given-urgent-medical-help-falling-ill-talking-military-chiefs.html

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

Our President Ladies and Gentlemen...........Good job Joe !

 

Joe Biden Tosses Zelensky Under the Bus and Backs up Over Him 

 

 

 

President Joe Biden, speaking to donors at a Democratic fundraiser here, said Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky “didn’t want to hear it” when U.S. intelligence gathered information that Russia was preparing to invade.

 

The remarks came as Biden was talking about his work to rally and solidify support for Ukraine as the war continues into its fourth month.

 

“Nothing like this has happened since World War II. I know a lot of people thought I was maybe exaggerating. But I knew we had data to sustain he” — meaning Russian President Vladimir Putin — “was going to go in, off the border.”

 

“There was no doubt,” Biden said. “And Zelensky didn’t want to hear it.”

 

Well, that’s nice. The empathizer-in-chief maligning a guy whose country is being invaded by nuclear-armed Russia, in order to gain a few claps at a fundraiser.

 

Biden doing that is so on-brand because nothing is ever his fault. Inflation isn’t his fault, the economy isn’t his fault, Afghanistan wasn’t his fault, the border crisis isn’t his fault, and of course, he bears zero responsibility for Russia invading Ukraine. Do you understand how all this works now?

 

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2022/06/11/joe-biden-tosses-zelensky-under-the-bus-and-backs-up-over-him-n577352

 

 

[Tiberius]

32 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

Our President Ladies and Gentlemen...........Good job Joe !

 

Joe Biden Tosses Zelensky Under the Bus and Backs up Over Him 

 

 

 

President Joe Biden, speaking to donors at a Democratic fundraiser here, said Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky “didn’t want to hear it” when U.S. intelligence gathered information that Russia was preparing to invade.

 

The remarks came as Biden was talking about his work to rally and solidify support for Ukraine as the war continues into its fourth month.

 

“Nothing like this has happened since World War II. I know a lot of people thought I was maybe exaggerating. But I knew we had data to sustain he” — meaning Russian President Vladimir Putin — “was going to go in, off the border.”

 

“There was no doubt,” Biden said. “And Zelensky didn’t want to hear it.”

 

Well, that’s nice. The empathizer-in-chief maligning a guy whose country is being invaded by nuclear-armed Russia, in order to gain a few claps at a fundraiser.

 

Biden doing that is so on-brand because nothing is ever his fault. Inflation isn’t his fault, the economy isn’t his fault, Afghanistan wasn’t his fault, the border crisis isn’t his fault, and of course, he bears zero responsibility for Russia invading Ukraine. Do you understand how all this works now?

 

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2022/06/11/joe-biden-tosses-zelensky-under-the-bus-and-backs-up-over-him-n577352

 

 

Was this before or after giving Uk $ 40 billion in aid? 

 

Two wo world leaders were very critical of NATO, Trump and Putin 

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Back to the thread.

 

Putin given 'urgent medical help' after falling ill while talking to military chiefs, Kremlin insider claims

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10903627/Putin-given-urgent-medical-help-falling-ill-talking-military-chiefs.html

 

 

Would be nice if he would just die already. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Two world leaders were screaming about how bad NATO is. Trump and Putin 

 

WTF does NATO have to do with this?

[L Ron Burgundy]

5 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Back to the thread.

 

Putin given 'urgent medical help' after falling ill while talking to military chiefs, Kremlin insider claims

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10903627/Putin-given-urgent-medical-help-falling-ill-talking-military-chiefs.html

 

 

Please let this be serious.   Wonder who would take over should this come to pass.   

[SoCal Deek]

20 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Two world leaders were screaming about how bad NATO is. Trump and Putin 

Ugh! Trump isn’t anti-NATO. He just wanted them to pay their required ‘taxes’. None of this is complicated! 

[Tiberius]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ugh! Trump isn’t anti-NATO. He just wanted them to pay their required ‘taxes’. None of this is complicated! 

Yup, that was his excuse for doing what Putin wanted