Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

What? 

Exactly 

[Tiberius]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Exactly 

Well, you make 0 sense 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Well, you make 0 sense 

You don’t think it’s time to stop this? Really? You think that after six months the solution is going to be found in more arms sales and Twitter handles? 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

You don’t think it’s time to stop this? Really? You think that after six months the solution is going to be found in more arms sales and Twitter handles? 

Sure

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Sure

Excellent…we agree. 

I’m serious about the Star Trek episode. Good science fiction takes you out of the constraints of your current location and time to tell a story that makes you pause and think. I recommend you find the episode on a streaming source somewhere. 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Excellent…we agree. 

I’m serious about the Star Trek episode. Good science fiction takes you out of the constraints of your current location and time to tell a story that makes you pause and think. I recommend you find the episode on a streaming source somewhere. 

.

[ALF]

Russia supplied the EU with 40% of its natural gas last year. Germany, Europe's largest economy, was the largest importer of Russia gas in 2020, followed by Italy. The UK is less reliant on Russian gas, importing just 4% of its needs from there last year, and the US doesn't import any gas from Russia.Jul 11, 2022

 

The EU imported 2.2 million barrels per day (bpd) of crude in 2021, including 0.7 million bpd via pipeline. The bloc also imported 1.2 million bpd of refined oil products from Russia, including 0.5 million bpd of diesel. Jun 1, 2022

 

Oil and nat gas are holding back help for Ukraine. 

[SoCal Deek]

16 minutes ago, ALF said:

Russia supplied the EU with 40% of its natural gas last year. Germany, Europe's largest economy, was the largest importer of Russia gas in 2020, followed by Italy. The UK is less reliant on Russian gas, importing just 4% of its needs from there last year, and the US doesn't import any gas from Russia.Jul 11, 2022

 

The EU imported 2.2 million barrels per day (bpd) of crude in 2021, including 0.7 million bpd via pipeline. The bloc also imported 1.2 million bpd of refined oil products from Russia, including 0.5 million bpd of diesel. Jun 1, 2022

 

Oil and nat gas are holding back help for Ukraine. 

Ya think? 

[ALF]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ya think? 

 

Yep , makes more sense then you suggesting watching Star Trek

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Yep , makes more sense then you suggesting watching Star Trek

Not trying to be nasty Alf, but your statistics are spot on. And the US could easily find itself in the exact same predicament if we’re not careful. Regarding my reference, I’m going to guess you don’t know the story told in that episode do you? Look it up. You’ll learn something. 
 

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

Omg they aren't even at war......well.....they will be now....

 

What a disaster....

 

The globalists had to have a *post Covid* distraction! 

 

Nice job Covidiots

 

 

 

Ukraine Live Updates: European Nations Are Asked to Immediately Start Rationing Natural Gas

 

BRUSSELS — To avoid energy shortages that would stall economic growth and leave households cold in the winter as Russia weaponizes its gas exports, European countries should immediately start rationing use of the fuel, the European Commission said on Wednesday, and cut their use 15 percent until next spring.

 

If the bloc’s 27 member countries agree to adopt the plan and the new legislation that goes with it, it would solidify the sense that Europe’s economy is on war footing because of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The proposal would grant the Commission, the bloc’s executive arm, powers to force member nations to follow a strict plan of energy consumption cuts as of this summer.

 

“Months before the war broke out, Russia kept gas supply intentionally as low as possible despite the high gas prices,” the Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, told the news media on Wednesday.

 

“Russia is blackmailing us. Russia is using energy as a weapon,” she said. 

 

*No ***t," said people who aren't morons.

 

Public opinion is split over whether supporting Ukraine is worth the sacrifice, with some people saying they are ready to take a bigger hit to keep up resistance to Russia and others saying the war would hurt them more than they are willing to accept.

 

Europeans, especially those living in the bloc’s wealthiest regions in the north and west, are among the world’s richest people on average, and are not accustomed to hardships like keeping houses cold in the winter.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/07/20/world/ukraine-russia-war/european-nations-are-asked-to-cut-their-use-of-natural-use-15-percent-until-next-spring?smid=url-share

 

 

 

Until next Spring!

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Big Blitz

[ALF]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Not trying to be nasty Alf, but your statistics are spot on. And the US could easily find itself in the exact same predicament if we’re not careful. Regarding my reference, I’m going to guess you don’t know the story told in that episode do you? Look it up. You’ll learn something. 
 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I took ya think the wrong way. In the long run the US and EU need to be energy independent. The present time is a real dilemma . 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Maybe I took ya think the wrong way. In the long run the US and EU need to be energy independent. The present time is a real dilemma . 

Bingo! Put another way….There’s no difference between farm to table food and farm to table energy. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

46 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Bingo! Put another way….There’s no difference between farm to table food and farm to table energy. 

The reality is no country is totally self-sufficient.  Even if the US or Europe were "energy independent" they'd still be dependent on other countries for a long list of other primary inputs or finished goods.  Maybe a system where a  matrix of co-dependencies between countries would imposes the need for cooperation and a better path to peace and compromise? 

 

My assessment of the current insanity is there was very little effort from all involves parties to avoid hostilities because nobody around the table was willing to yield an inch and consider the consequences a conflict would bring and how it might impact their mutual and domestic interests.  But here we are.  The world is a mess and headed to getting messier.  I say this as a subscriber to the Edwin Starr school of War.

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The reality is no country is totally self-sufficient.  Even if the US or Europe were "energy independent" they'd still be dependent on other countries for a long list of other primary inputs or finished goods.  Maybe a system where a  matrix of co-dependencies between countries would imposes the need for cooperation and a better path to peace and compromise? 

 

My assessment of the current insanity is there was very little effort from all involves parties to avoid hostilities because nobody around the table was willing to yield an inch and consider the consequences a conflict would bring and how it might impact their mutual and domestic interests.  But here we are.  The world is a mess and headed to getting messier.  I say this as a subscriber to the Edwin Starr school of War.

Note that I didn’t say you’d be able to grow ALL of your food in the restaurant parking lot. 😂

But the concept still applies. The closer you are to the point of consumption, the more efficient the source of energy. That’s not a political statement of any kind. It’s just a fact.

[Tiberius]

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The reality is no country is totally self-sufficient.  Even if the US or Europe were "energy independent" they'd still be dependent on other countries for a long list of other primary inputs or finished goods.  Maybe a system where a  matrix of co-dependencies between countries would imposes the need for cooperation and a better path to peace and compromise? 

 

My assessment of the current insanity is there was very little effort from all involves parties to avoid hostilities because nobody around the table was willing to yield an inch and consider the consequences a conflict would bring and how it might impact their mutual and domestic interests.  But here we are.  The world is a mess and headed to getting messier.  I say this as a subscriber to the Edwin Starr school of War.

Tell that to Putin. Who else? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

44 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Tell that to Putin. Who else? 

You know who else but its obvious you're unable to objectively view this conflict and as a result are against any peaceful compromise.

Edited July 20, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Tell that to Putin. Who else? 

Funny you put it that way. I don’t have his phone number…but I’m betting that the Biden Administration does. 

[ALF]

Putin faces second war front as Chechens threaten new offensive in Russia
Chechen forces could force Putin to divert troops from Ukraine as he faces down civil war at home

 

Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February, volunteer Chechen forces joined the fight in support of Kyiv – fueling the flames to a long-held animus towards not only Russia, but Putin.

 

Chechen resistance to Russian rule dates back centuries and calls for independence began more than 30 years ago following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. 

 

However, disdain for Putin and a decade of war broke out after he voided the treaty and launched a deadly military campaign in 1999 after he was appointed prime minister by then President Boris Yeltsin.

 

An estimated 160,000 people were killed in both campaigns, though exact figures remain unclear.

At least two volunteer Chechen battalions, including veteran soldiers from both the first and second Chechen wars, have taken up arms against Russia in Ukraine, including the Sheikh Mansur Battalion and the Dzhokhar Dudayev Battalion.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-faces-second-war-front-chechens-threaten-new-offensive-russia

[Tiberius]

50 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You know who else but its obvious you're unable to objectively view this conflict and as a result are against any peaceful compromise.

Who else? Putin is invading another country and you think Ukraine should what..? Stop defending themselves? 

32 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Funny you put it that way. I don’t have his phone number…but I’m betting that the Biden Administration does. 

What solution do you want Biden to propose? 

33 minutes ago, ALF said:

Putin faces second war front as Chechens threaten new offensive in Russia
Chechen forces could force Putin to divert troops from Ukraine as he faces down civil war at home

 

Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February, volunteer Chechen forces joined the fight in support of Kyiv – fueling the flames to a long-held animus towards not only Russia, but Putin.

 

Chechen resistance to Russian rule dates back centuries and calls for independence began more than 30 years ago following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. 

 

However, disdain for Putin and a decade of war broke out after he voided the treaty and launched a deadly military campaign in 1999 after he was appointed prime minister by then President Boris Yeltsin.

 

An estimated 160,000 people were killed in both campaigns, though exact figures remain unclear.

At least two volunteer Chechen battalions, including veteran soldiers from both the first and second Chechen wars, have taken up arms against Russia in Ukraine, including the Sheikh Mansur Battalion and the Dzhokhar Dudayev Battalion.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-faces-second-war-front-chechens-threaten-new-offensive-russia

Living under Russian occupation must be just horrible 

[SoCal Deek]

25 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

What solution do you want Biden to propose? 

 

It's called 'brokering the peace'.  What solution are you holding your breath over?  Besides screaming PUTIN at everyone 24/7.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Who else? Putin is invading another country and you think Ukraine should what..? Stop defending themselves?

I think clearly knowing your taking actions that will lead to a conflict is equivalent to staring a conflict.  And I'm not talking about the Ukrainians.  

 

 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

It's called 'brokering the peace'.  What solution are you holding your breath over?  Besides screaming PUTIN at everyone 24/7.

Seriously, you complain but don't propose anything serious. Just nothing but crap from you 

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Seriously, you complain but don't propose anything serious. Just nothing but crap from you 

I just said the Biden Administration needs to broker the peace!

 

Hello? Is this thing on?

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I just said the Biden Administration needs to broker the peace!

 

Hello? Is this thing on?

How, what terms? More crap from you, just general puck 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

How, what terms? More crap from you, just general puck 

Are you clueless? The broker doesn’t set the terms. They negotiate and facilitate them. Have you ever bought a house?  Sheeesh! 

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You know who else but its obvious you're unable to objectively view this conflict and as a result are against any peaceful compromise.

 

Russia chose to start a war of conquest. Why should anybody compromise with them, when all a compromise does is incentivize another war?

 

Do you think Russia's invasion and its subsequent conduct are justified in some way? I'm interested in hearing your reasoning if you do. 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Are you clueless? The broker doesn’t set the terms. They negotiate and facilitate them. Have you ever bought a house?  Sheeesh! 

Negotiate what? What do you want the two sides to negotiate? 

 

Biden and Ukraine are pretty clear, Russia has to leave. Putin wants to take over people's territory. 

 

So what do you think would they can negotiate about? 

 

I'm giving you a chance to show you know something about this topic. Come on 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Negotiate what? What do you want the two sides to negotiate? 

 

Biden and Ukraine are pretty clear, Russia has to leave. Putin wants to take over people's territory. 

 

So what do you think would they can negotiate about? 

 

I'm giving you a chance to show you know something about this topic. Come on 

It’s not up to me (or you) to decide what each side is willing to accept. You’ve clearly never negotiated for anything in your life or sat through a mediation or arbitration process in a civil suit. I have. And I can tell you that everyone walks into the room with your attitude. And some hours later everyone walks out with a solution. It happens THOUSANDS of times each and every day. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just now, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Russia chose to start a war of conquest. Why should anybody compromise with them, when all a compromise does is incentivize another war?

 

Do you think Russia's invasion and its subsequent conduct are justified in some way? I'm interested in hearing your reasoning if you do. 

First, none of this has anything to do with what I want or what I don't want.  We have family of Ukrainian descent (my sister-in-law) and we've pitched in to help at the church with time and money for aid shipments.  So I'm hardly what others here suggest as some sort of Russian sympathizer or asset because I'm not buying into the propaganda about how well and great this war is going.  And when somebody responds with some"Putin" reference I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  There's a lot of needless death and suffering.  That's my base case here.  

 

But this conflict started back in 2014.  When the State department's neocon extraordinaire Victoria Nuland and the CIA engineered the coup in 2014.  In 2016 Trump's in, she's out and a balance of power back-and-forth is in place.  In 2020 Biden's in and she's back in the club.  Under-secretary for Blinken assigned to finish the job.  

 

To fast-forward to today, in my view this war is already lost  But Washington refuses to allow Zelensky to sit down and discuss peace terms.  Europe is a disaster,  It should be pointed out these are the same cast of characters that FUBAR'd every single one of these regime change operations over the past 25+ years and its almost a guarantee this one is also going to end in abject failure.  

 

If the US had clearly stated there are no plans to put missiles in Ukraine or to advance the NATO alliance towards their border none of this would have happened.  But the US didn't say that because that's absolutely the objective.    

 

What you might be distracted from here is the big picture of changing alliances and transfer of power among the global players.  Do you really believe the US is playing from a position of strength?  Look at Biden's recent trip for clues.  The body language and how he came off as weak and begging for the Saudi's to increase oil output.  And he came away with nothing.  They did everything short of just laughing in his face.  This week Putin follows up with his visit.  Don't be surprised if Putin along with Xi eventually broker an armistice or peace deal between long time adversaries Iran and Saudi Arabia.  That will be a real kick in the toolbox for the US State Department.  The balance of power is shifting away from the US and these weak and ineffective leaders and constant threats of violence and military intervention and sanctions are accelerating the process as the world is looking for the exit ramp.  

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

58 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

First, none of this has anything to do with what I want or what I don't want.  We have family of Ukrainian descent (my sister-in-law) and we've pitched in to help at the church with time and money for aid shipments.  So I'm hardly what others here suggest as some sort of Russian sympathizer or asset because I'm not buying into the propaganda about how well and great this war is going.  And when somebody responds with some"Putin" reference I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  There's a lot of needless death and suffering.  That's my base case here.  

 

But this conflict started back in 2014.  When the State department's neocon extraordinaire Victoria Nuland and the CIA engineered the coup in 2014.  In 2016 Trump's in, she's out and a balance of power back-and-forth is in place.  In 2020 Biden's in and she's back in the club.  Under-secretary for Blinken assigned to finish the job.  

 

To fast-forward to today, in my view this war is already lost  But Washington refuses to allow Zelensky to sit down and discuss peace terms.  Europe is a disaster,  It should be pointed out these are the same cast of characters that FUBAR'd every single one of these regime change operations over the past 25+ years and its almost a guarantee this one is also going to end in abject failure.  

 

If the US had clearly stated there are no plans to put missiles in Ukraine or to advance the NATO alliance towards their border none of this would have happened.  But the US didn't say that because that's absolutely the objective.    

 

What you might be distracted from here is the big picture of changing alliances and transfer of power among the global players.  Do you really believe the US is playing from a position of strength?  Look at Biden's recent trip for clues.  The body language and how he came off as weak and begging for the Saudi's to increase oil output.  And he came away with nothing.  They did everything short of just laughing in his face.  This week Putin follows up with his visit.  Don't be surprised if Putin along with Xi eventually broker an armistice or peace deal between long time adversaries Iran and Saudi Arabia.  That will be a real kick in the toolbox for the US State Department.  The balance of power is shifting away from the US and these weak and ineffective leaders and constant threats of violence and military intervention and sanctions are accelerating the process as the world is looking for the exit ramp.  

 

 

 

Thank ***** god for a nuanced opinion rather than a raft of tweets!  Ill reply to you at length later, and I asked for your take because I know you have a personal connection to what's going on. 

[Tiberius]

 

[SoCal Deek]

49 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Well there you have it. Twitter has spoken. 

[Tiberius]

Good good! 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

As Questions Mount About Corruption In Ukraine, The Neocon Narrative Is Unraveling

BY: JOHN DANIEL DAVIDSON

JULY 20, 2022

 

The Washington establishment would rather cast aspersions on those asking questions about corruption in Ukraine than recognize the problem.

 

https://thefederalist.com/2022/07/20/as-questions-mount-about-corruption-in-ukraine-the-neocon-narrative-is-unraveling/

 

 

Neocons? 

 

They are the ones that pushed the Iraq War. @B-Man Remember that? Now all these Conservatives say they were with with Obama against the war, lol 

 

Go Ukraine!!! Hopefully next month sees a major shift in the war there 

[Tiberius]

Well, ya 

 

 

 

[aristocrat]

 

[Orlando Tim]

I just got back from a vacation with some extended family, one who works for the govt and has knowledge of what our intelligence believes, and it was mainly very encouraging. Our govt has sent more than they have truly publicized, but refused American troops at all points, which made me happy. The Ukrainians have actually done more damage to the Russian army than is being discussed on mainstream media. The problem is there is little in a way Putin can bow out and look like the "winner" so some are concerned about that. I will add the caveat that the info I was given was very general and my family member is rarely even in the room where the decisions are made but he is sometimes and what he shared is big picture nothing specific.

[B-Man]

 

 

WELL, GOOD: 

 

Ukraine is winning.

 

https://hotair.com/headlines/2022/07/21/ukraine-is-winning-n484219