Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

31 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Sounds like it was a made up slander against the process. 

That's what it sounds like to you?  You have absolutely 100% confidence the entire transfer process was performed at a level of perfection?  Okay then, when I need somebody to lead a course on Six Sigma process improvement and execution that includes discussing concepts like conformance to specifications you'll be the first person I contact.    

Edited October 24, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's what it sounds like to you?  You have absolutely 100% confidence the entire transfer process as performed at a level of perfection?  Okay then, when I need somebody to lead a course on Six Sigma process improvement and execution that includes discussing concepts like conformance to specifications you'll be the first person I contact.    

Made up issue. You are just trying to slander a process because you don't like what's going on

 

Are you an America first Isolationist? 

[sherpa]

41 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Sounds like it was a made up slander against the process. 

 

Obvious, but you don't know the definition of "slander," and nobody here knows the "process," least of all, you.

 

I voiced these concerns, here, many months before the Pentagon, Interpol and the EU echoed those same sentiments.

 

You have shown no instinct for these things, evidenced by the insane idea that position two fighter squadrons in the Ukraine as a deterrent, which really means "bait," and your initial view that a US led no fly zone was a great idea.

Simply crazy. 

[Tiberius]

22 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Obvious, but you don't know the definition of "slander," and nobody here knows the "process," least of all, you.

 

I voiced these concerns, here, many months before the Pentagon, Interpol and the EU echoed those same sentiments.

 

You have shown no instinct for these things, evidenced by the insane idea that position two fighter squadrons in the Ukraine as a deterrent, which really means "bait," and your initial view that a US led no fly zone was a great idea.

Simply crazy. 

Just asked for some proof, gees. 

[sherpa]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Just asked for some proof, gees. 

 

No you didn't just ask for proof.

You asked for proof of something that is going to take years to sort out, but has happened every single time since my experience in this fort of thing, and is made far more likely by the Administration led hideous escape from Afghanistan.

 

Further, you suggested that people concerned with this thing, which has happened every single time, are guilty of "slandering the process," a process that you know nothing about.

[Tiberius]

42 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

No you didn't just ask for proof.

You asked for proof of something that is going to take years to sort out, but has happened every single time since my experience in this fort of thing, and is made far more likely by the Administration led hideous escape from Afghanistan.

 

Further, you suggested that people concerned with this thing, which has happened every single time, are guilty of "slandering the process," a process that you know nothing about.

So you admit it is not provable at this time. Perhaps it's going great! 

 

I bet it is going great. Sure looks like it 👍 🇺🇸

[sherpa]

25 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So you admit it is not provable at this time. Perhaps it's going great! 

 

I bet it is going great. Sure looks like it 👍 🇺🇸

 

No. incorrect premise again.

What it looks like to you, a person who has demonstrated absolutely zero awareness of how this stuff happens, is of no value.

 

I'd take that bet.

As this unfolds, and the truth is revealed, I'm quite certain the concerns I have expressed will prove to be the situation.

 

[Tenhigh]

4 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

#$%& no.  

Many reasons.  First, we need fewer nuclear powers in the world, not more.  Second, the main reason we are dumping 100s of $billions into Ukraine is because that was the trade off to get them to get rid of their nukes in the Budapest Agreement.  Third,  Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt country.

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

No. incorrect premise again.

What it looks like to you, a person who has demonstrated absolutely zero awareness of how this stuff happens, is of no value.

 

I'd take that bet.

As this unfolds, and the truth is revealed, I'm quite certain the concerns I have expressed will prove to be the situation.

 

So no proof then? Ok, thanks, you may not be stable, but you are consistent 😂

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Many reasons.  First, we need fewer nuclear powers in the world, not more.  Second, the main reason we are dumping 100s of $billions into Ukraine is because that was the trade off to get them to get rid of their nukes in the Budapest Agreement.  Third,  Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt country.

Oh, I thought it was because Putin attacked them. But, ya, blame our side, or my side, should I say. 

[Tenhigh]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Oh, I thought it was because Putin attacked them. But, ya, blame our side, or my side, should I say. 

Tibs, this doesn't even make sense.  You asked why we shouldn't give Ukraine nukes, I replued why, then you post this.  I can usually parse your gibberish to get whatever misguided point you are trying to make, but not here. 

[Tiberius]

19 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, this doesn't even make sense.  You asked why we shouldn't give Ukraine nukes, I replued why, then you post this.  I can usually parse your gibberish to get whatever misguided point you are trying to make, but not here. 

You literally blamed the West for the disaster in Ukraine. 

 

That's you, that's what you think, so don't get your knickers tied if you get called on it. Own your own! 

[sherpa]

56 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So no proof then? Ok, thanks, you may not be stable, but you are consistent 😂

 

 

I'm not stable?

 

You are in your own league of ignorant.

Indeed, the standard of this sites ignorance.

 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

 

I'm not stable?

 

You are in your own league of ignorant.

Indeed, the standard of this sites ignorance.

 

So still no proof? A stable person would back up their claims at least a little 

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

So still no proof? A stable person would back up their claims at least a little 

 

And thus my claim suggesting your ignorance.

My "claim" was that I was concerned about these weapons getting into the wrong hands, as has happened with sales to Iran, gifts to the Mujahedeen and others.

Weapons that US forces have had to plan to, and actually fight against, and have shown up in use by folks quite happy to use them against civilian targets.

 

If that "concern" is unwarranted, you are ignorant of 42 years of history, US military operations, and will prove to be so in the future.

 

You sir, are a clueless fool.

 

[Tenhigh]

40 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You literally blamed the West for the disaster in Ukraine. 

 

That's you, that's what you think, so don't get your knickers tied if you get called on it. Own your own! 

Where did I do that Tibs?

[LDD]

30 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So still no proof? A stable person would back up their claims at least a little 

I'm pretty sure his proof is every conflict in the history of the world that distributed weapons.  Also, his proof may be gun violence in the United States where guns get into the wrong hands simply because there are so many of them.  

 

It will undoubtedly occur in the Ukraine war.  The hope is to keep it to a minimum.  

[BillStime]

 

 

 

Sounds just like the cult - always the victim.

 

[Doc]

It's a shame Joke let this happen.

[Tiberius]

14 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

We all know that you didn't.

 

Tibs is not worth this effort.

 

Even the libs want peace.

 

 

 

"A group of 30 House liberals is urging President Biden to dramatically shift his strategy on the Ukraine war and pursue direct negotiations with Russia..."

"... the first time prominent members of his own party have pushed him to change his approach to Ukraine....The Democrats are specifically concerned that the United States is not engaging in regular dialogue with Russia as part of its effort to end a protracted war....

 

The Biden administration has been adamant that it is up to Kyiv whether and when to negotiate with Russia, arguing that Ukrainians as a free people should decide their fate. But some Russia experts say Moscow will only negotiate with the United States, a fellow superpower.

 

The lawmakers say that opening must be seized given the war’s spreading devastation.... The letter was signed by some of the best-known and most outspoken liberal Democrats in Congress, including Reps. Jamie Raskin (Md.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.), Cori Bush (Mo.), Ro Khanna (Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (Minn.)."

 

 

 

 WaPo reports.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/24/biden-ukraine-liberals/

BS. This is stupid. Have they called for the return of Ukranian children kidnapped are removed to Russia? They should be calling on Putin to stop murdering civilians. Good thing the moderate Dems are in charge 

[Tenhigh]

So, @Tiberius, I now have 2 questions for you:

1. When did I "blame the West for the disaster in Ukraine"?

2. Nukes or no nukes for Ukraine?

 

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

So, @Tiberius, I now have 2 questions for you:

1. When did I "blame the West for the disaster in Ukraine"?

2. Nukes or no nukes for Ukraine?

 

You: Second, the main reason we are dumping 100s of $billions into Ukraine is because that was the trade off to get them to get rid of their nukes in the Budapest Agreement. 

 

Do you understand the point? 

[Tenhigh]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

You: Second, the main reason we are dumping 100s of $billions into Ukraine is because that was the trade off to get them to get rid of their nukes in the Budapest Agreement. 

 

Do you understand the point? 

One of us does.  Point #2 is not blaming the west for the disaster in Ukraine, it's explaining why we (the US and UK) are doing so much to help.  Do you want me to explain it to you?

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

One of us does.  Point #2 is not blaming the west for the disaster in Ukraine, it's explaining why we (the US and UK) are doing so much to help.  Do you want me to explain it to you?

Yes, explain that. Use Joe Biden's words, please. Never heard him say we had a treaty obligation to supply Ukraine. I thought he made a better argument, like, you know, its just the right thing to do. But don't let me stop you, you just go right ahead and show me I'm wrong. 

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, explain that. Use Joe Biden's words, please. Never heard him say we had a treaty obligation to supply Ukraine. I thought he made a better argument, like, you know, its just the right thing to do. But don't let me stop you, you just go right ahead and show me I'm wrong. 

Ok, here goes. 

Where am I again?, I like ice cream, I beat up Corn Pop, I was a football star and a lifeguard, I couldnt' fight in Vietnam because I have asthma, I am sorry that I have to drop out of the race because I plagiarized and exaggerated my record, you ain't black, 2 words, made in America, I did not sniff inappropriately!  

I keed, I keed, but you DID say to use Biden's words, fortunately my brain isn't Mushy enough yet to use them in kind.   

 

But for realsies, and In a nutshell at the end of the Cold War, about 1/3 of the USSR nuclear stockpile was in Ukraine.  In exchange for them getting rid of the nukes, the US, UK and a western-friendly Russia (under Yeltsin) agreed to provide Ukraine with "security assurances".   While they fall short of security guarantees as provided by a NATO member (of which Ukraine has been far too corrupt to gain access), we did tell Ukraine that we would respond should they be attacked.  Just google it if you want to learn more, but here is a start from the hyper-conservative Brookings Institute:

 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/12/04/the-budapest-memorandum-and-u-s-obligations/

 

If anything this should bolster your argument that we should be helping Ukraine more, but if it makes you feel better to call me a fascist Putin supporter, by all means, have at it.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Tenhigh

[Tiberius]

Good 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Ok, here goes. 

Where am I again?, I like ice cream, I beat up Corn Pop, I was a football star and a lifeguard, I couldnt' fight in Vietnam because I have asthma, I am sorry that I have to drop out of the race because I plagiarized and exaggerated my record, you ain't black, 2 words, made in America, I did not sniff inappropriately!  

I keed, I keed, but you DID say to use Biden's words, fortunately my brain isn't Mushy enough yet to use them in kind.   

 

But for realsies, and In a nutshell at the end of the Cold War, about 1/3 of the USSR nuclear stockpile was in Ukraine.  In exchange for them getting rid of the nukes, the US, UK and a western-friendly Russia (under Yeltsin) agreed to provide Ukraine with "security assurances".   While they fall short of security guarantees as provided by a NATO member (of which Ukraine has been far too corrupt to gain access), we did tell Ukraine that we would respond should they be attacked.  Just google it if you want to learn more, but here is a start from the hyper-conservative Brookings Institute:

 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/12/04/the-budapest-memorandum-and-u-s-obligations/

 

If anything this should bolster your argument that we should be helping Ukraine more, but if it makes you feel better to call me a fascist Putin supporter, by all means, have at it.  

So no we are not helping them because of that Yeltsin era agreement. We are just doing it because its the right thing to do. Thanks You could of just agreed with me and saved time 

[Tiberius]

 

[OrangeBills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

The Korean War argument

 

[reddogblitz]

27 minutes ago, OrangeBills said:

 

The Korean War argument

 

 

The Vietnam argument.

[Warcodered]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:25 PM, BillStime said:

 

 

 

Sounds just like the cult - always the victim.

 

What an incredibly stupid concept, so what are they setting up a false flag of a false flag? Or are they really implying that Ukraine would think using a dirty bomb within the borders of the country they're trying to take back makes any kind of ***** sense?

Edited October 26, 2022 by Warcodered

[Tenhigh]

12 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

So no we are not helping them because of that Yeltsin era agreement. We are just doing it because its the right thing to do. Thanks You could of just agreed with me and saved time 

I hope you are at least good looking Tibs.  

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

I hope you are at least good looking Tibs.  

Don't need to hope about that  

 

 

[Tiberius]

19 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Ukraine Wants $2 Billion of EU Taxpayer Money in Aid Every Month

 

 

Officials from Ukraine are looking to get the EU taxpayers to bankroll them to the tune of $2 billion dollars every month.

 

Taxpayers within the European Union should hand over billions of dollars in funding to Ukraine every single month, officials from the war-torn nation have said.

 

Of this two billion, Die Welt reports the Zelensky administration as wanting Germany alone to send $500 million every month to tide Ukraine over, perhaps a tall order considering the frequently strained relations between the two countries.

 

“We need four to five billion dollars for our budget every month,” Die Welt reports Alexander Rodnyansky, a financial advisor to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, as saying.

.

“We believe that Germany could take on around $500 million a month, especially with a view to 2023,” he continued. “From the EU as a whole we are hoping for around $2 billion a month.”

 

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article241772151/Ukraine-Krieg-Ukraine-hofft-auf-500-Millionen-Dollar-Finanzhilfen-pro-Monat-von-Deutschland.html

 

 

Yup, freedom isn't free. Do they want Putin to succeed in creating a failed state at the gateway to Europe? no 

[ALF]

Russia threatens to target Western commercial satellites like Elon Musk's Starlink
Russia threatens arms race in space if commercial satellites do not stop assisting Ukraine in war

 

The satellites have proven vital for Ukraine’s troop communication on the ground and along the front lines, but their assistance to Kyiv in its battlefield successes have become a sore point in Russia.

 

"Namely, the use by the United States and its allies of civilian, including commercial, infrastructure elements in outer space for military purposes," he added, noting that satellite use "constitute[s] indirect participation" in the war. "Quasi-civilian infrastructure may become a legitimate target for retaliation.

 

Frustration has reportedly mounted in Moscow and within Russia’s own ranks over its inability to maintain command and control as Ukrainian forces continue to make battlefield advances.

 

Vorontsov argued that commercial satellites used to benefit Ukraine in the war violates The Outer Space Treaty and warned it could start a"full-fledged arms race in outer space."

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-threatens-target-western-commercial-satellites-elon-musks-starlink

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, ALF said:

Russia threatens to target Western commercial satellites like Elon Musk's Starlink
Russia threatens arms race in space if commercial satellites do not stop assisting Ukraine in war

 

The satellites have proven vital for Ukraine’s troop communication on the ground and along the front lines, but their assistance to Kyiv in its battlefield successes have become a sore point in Russia.

 

"Namely, the use by the United States and its allies of civilian, including commercial, infrastructure elements in outer space for military purposes," he added, noting that satellite use "constitute[s] indirect participation" in the war. "Quasi-civilian infrastructure may become a legitimate target for retaliation.

 

Frustration has reportedly mounted in Moscow and within Russia’s own ranks over its inability to maintain command and control as Ukrainian forces continue to make battlefield advances.

 

Vorontsov argued that commercial satellites used to benefit Ukraine in the war violates The Outer Space Treaty and warned it could start a"full-fledged arms race in outer space."

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-threatens-target-western-commercial-satellites-elon-musks-starlink

Are the appeasers going to demand we accommodate the dictator? 

[Tiberius]

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Ugh.

 

 

Russia Now Has a Second Frontline Set Up Just to Kill Its Deserters: Intel.

 

Ukrainian intelligence on Thursday released an audio recording that appears to capture in disturbing detail the mayhem and internal rifts between Russian troops on the battlefield. In the five-minute clip, described as an intercepted phone conversation between a Russian soldier and his wife, the man says he and the other men in his unit are a comfortable distance from the actual fighting.

 

“They moved us back to the second line, there’s shooting somewhere ahead of us, but we’re back here for now in the trenches,” he says, before boasting that he’d been lucky and found a “Rosneft jacket covered in blood, but warm.”

 

“They brought the inmates here… from prison. But they led them somewhere way up front. And we’re sitting here as a retreat-blocking detachment, *****. If someone runs back, we snuff them out.”

 

“What a nightmare,” his wife says.

 

“That’s how we have it set up. We sit on the second line, guarding the first. Behind us, there’s another line. If you go that way, you also won’t make it. So it’s impossible to run away. They shoot their own.”

 

This could just be Ukrainian propaganda. On the other hand, Stalin had the NKVD do the exact same thing during World War II.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-now-has-a-second-frontline-set-up-just-to-kill-its-deserters-intel

 

 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Ugh.

 

 

Russia Now Has a Second Frontline Set Up Just to Kill Its Deserters: Intel.

 

Ukrainian intelligence on Thursday released an audio recording that appears to capture in disturbing detail the mayhem and internal rifts between Russian troops on the battlefield. In the five-minute clip, described as an intercepted phone conversation between a Russian soldier and his wife, the man says he and the other men in his unit are a comfortable distance from the actual fighting.

 

“They moved us back to the second line, there’s shooting somewhere ahead of us, but we’re back here for now in the trenches,” he says, before boasting that he’d been lucky and found a “Rosneft jacket covered in blood, but warm.”

 

“They brought the inmates here… from prison. But they led them somewhere way up front. And we’re sitting here as a retreat-blocking detachment, *****. If someone runs back, we snuff them out.”

 

“What a nightmare,” his wife says.

 

“That’s how we have it set up. We sit on the second line, guarding the first. Behind us, there’s another line. If you go that way, you also won’t make it. So it’s impossible to run away. They shoot their own.”

 

This could just be Ukrainian propaganda. On the other hand, Stalin had the NKVD do the exact same thing during World War II.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-now-has-a-second-frontline-set-up-just-to-kill-its-deserters-intel

 

 

Sad 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

Huh.

 

 

 

"Russia's not our enemy, the government of warmongers is the enemy."

 

The protesters have repeatedly condemned the government for its support of Ukraine and the European Union sanctions against Russia, and opposed Czech membership in the EU, NATO."

 

They are worried about freezing this winter.

 

 

.

[Tiberius]

PRAGUE, Oct 28 (Reuters) - Thousands of Czechs protested in Prague on Friday, demanding the centre-right government step down to allow an early election and calling for talks with Russia on gas supplies ahead of winter.

The demonstration on a national holiday in Prague's main square was the third organised by far-right political movements, fringe groups and the Communist party. Police estimated the crowd in the lower tens of thousands, less than the two previous rallies.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/czech-protesters-call-new-government-direct-gas-talks-with-russia-2022-10-28/

[Tiberius]

This is the other side of blocking battalions