Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

18 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Think you're missing my point. Completely. 

Let's hear it then. What is your point? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

23 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Let's hear it then. What is your point? 

What was the Cuban missile crisis about?  The Russians crossed the line in the sand by attempting to place ICBMs in Cuba.  90 miles from US territory.  Washington found this unacceptable.  What is one of the Russian concerns about Ukraine and NATO?  Parking strategic nuclear weapons on their border.  Moscow found this unacceptable as it crosses a line in the sand they've clearly communicated. 

 

Now if your a partisan player on one side or the other you can take the stance of one party being right and the other party being wrong.  You can even say that Cuba has a right to do whatever they want inside their country and the US had no justification to object just like you've stated in past posts as a justification for Kiev position and Moscow's illegitimate objections and actions.  But if you view the concerns objectively and equally you need to consider both valid or both invalid.  You can't pick and choose.  Moscow is just doing what Washington did in the '60's and the only difference is Moscow blinked and Washington didn't.  I think that's pretty much the point.    

Edited October 17, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Coffeesforclosers]

13 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

At this point we need to push much harder for negotiations of a peaceful ceasefire. Nothing good is going to come from continued war.

 

I'm all for a ceasefire, assuming the Ukrainians are holding the whip hand going into the negotiations.

 

Otherwise, Putin's dick is in a sausage maker and his hand is on the crank. He can stop cranking whenever he wants to.

 

Also, did we secretly deploy actual NATO units to the war, and nobody's said anything? I'm still trying to figure out how we're fighting in this war without our military actually, you know, fighting in it. 

[Tiberius]

29 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What was the Cuban missile crisis about?  The Russians crossed the line in the sand by attempting to place ICBMs in Cuba.  90 miles from US territory.  Washington found this unacceptable.  What is one of the Russian concerns about Ukraine and NATO?  Parking strategic nuclear weapons on their border.  Moscow found this unacceptable as it crosses a line in the sand they've clearly communicated. 

 

Now if your a partisan player on one side or the other you can take the stance of one party being right and the other party being wrong.  You can even say that Cuba has a right to do whatever they want inside their country and the US had no justification to object just like you've stated in past posts as a justification for Kiev position and Moscow's illegitimate objections and actions.  But if you view the concerns objectively and equally you need to consider both valid or both invalid.  You can't pick and choose.  Moscow is just doing what Washington did in the '60's and the only difference is Moscow blinked and Washington didn't.  I think that's pretty much the point.    

So you don't agree with all the democratic countries seeing this as protecting one of their own, correct? That makes no sense to you protecting a fellow democracy? 

[Tiberius]

Putin, Xi and the Saudis know what they are doing. Keep inflation high and snuff out the democratic nations one at a time 

 

 

[Demongyz]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Putin, Xi and the Saudis know what they are doing. Keep inflation high and snuff out the democratic nations one at a time 

 

 

No link, no quote?  Who is Heath Mayo?

 

A vote for Democrats is a vote for killing puppies!!!!

[B-Man]

35 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Putin, Xi and the Saudis know what they are doing. Keep inflation high and snuff out the democratic nations one at a time

 

 

 

Another Lie.

 

McCarthy said no such thing.

 

 

 

McCarthy Warns GOP May Cut Back Ukraine Aid If Party Wins House

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-18/mccarthy-warns-gop-may-cut-back-ukraine-aid-if-party-wins-house

 

 

 

 

McCarthy: No 'blank check' for Ukraine if GOP wins majority

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/mccarthy-no-blank-check-ukraine-201152336.html

 

 

“I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine," McCarthy told Punchbowl News. “They just won’t do it. … It’s not a free blank check.”

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Another Lie.

 

McCarthy said no such thing.

 

 

 

McCarthy Warns GOP May Cut Back Ukraine Aid If Party Wins House

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-18/mccarthy-warns-gop-may-cut-back-ukraine-aid-if-party-wins-house

 

 

 

 

McCarthy: No 'blank check' for Ukraine if GOP wins majority

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/mccarthy-no-blank-check-ukraine-201152336.html

 

 

“I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine," McCarthy told Punchbowl News. “They just won’t do it. … It’s not a free blank check.”

 

 

 

Will MTG be sitting right next to him saying (again) "Putin just wants to be our friend" 

[Tiberius]

Republicans have already indicated what they would do if they control one of both houses of Congress after the midterm elections. And it’s terrifying.

Of most concern is the resistance from House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) toward additional military aid to Ukraine. He told Punchbowl News during a recent interview, “I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession, and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine,” he said. “They just won’t do it.” He added, “Then there’s the things [the Biden administration] is not doing domestically. Not doing the border and people begin to weigh that. Ukraine is important, but at the same time it can’t be the only thing they do and it can’t be a blank check.”

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Such a proclamation must be encouraging for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin, whose invasion strategy rests on the assumption that the will of Ukraine’s Western allies will weaken, allowing Russian forces to grind the neighboring nation into submission. President Biden has spent nearly a year showing that the West will not bend. Now, with McCarthy’s typical recklessness in indulging MAGA isolationists, he is offering hope to Putin that if the Russian leader sticks to his war plan — built on human rights atrocities and Iranian weaponry — he might prevail.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/19/mccarthy-gop-ukraine-aid-midterms/

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Republicans have already indicated what they would do if they control one of both houses of Congress after the midterm elections. And it’s terrifying.

Of most concern is the resistance from House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) toward additional military aid to Ukraine. He told Punchbowl News during a recent interview, “I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession, and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine,” he said. “They just won’t do it.” He added, “Then there’s the things [the Biden administration] is not doing domestically. Not doing the border and people begin to weigh that. Ukraine is important, but at the same time it can’t be the only thing they do and it can’t be a blank check.”

Sign up for a weekly roundup of thought-provoking ideas and debates

Such a proclamation must be encouraging for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin, whose invasion strategy rests on the assumption that the will of Ukraine’s Western allies will weaken, allowing Russian forces to grind the neighboring nation into submission. President Biden has spent nearly a year showing that the West will not bend. Now, with McCarthy’s typical recklessness in indulging MAGA isolationists, he is offering hope to Putin that if the Russian leader sticks to his war plan — built on human rights atrocities and Iranian weaponry — he might prevail.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/19/mccarthy-gop-ukraine-aid-midterms/

So if you notice, the quote is that “we’re not going to be sending a BLANK check to Ukraine”, and honestly we shouldn’t be. 
 

Nothing to see here….next! 

[Tiberius]

34 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So if you notice, the quote is that “we’re not going to be sending a BLANK check to Ukraine”, and honestly we shouldn’t be. 
 

Nothing to see here….next! 

The signal has been sent. The GOP leadership will cut the aid to a nation facing a murderous tyrant. The base is thrilled 

[SoCal Deek]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

The signal has been sent. The GOP leadership will cut the aid to a nation facing a murderous tyrant. The base is thrilled 

Or….you could just read the actual quote. 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Or….you could just read the actual quote. 

The quote about limiting aid to a nation besieged by murderous tyrant? 

 

You don't give a crap anyway. Why are you even responding to this? 

[B-Man]

 

 

WELCOME TO RUSSIA. OBEY ORDERS: Putin declares martial law in annexed regions of Ukraine. 

 

“The upper house of Russia’s parliament was set to quickly seal Putin’s decision to impose martial law in the four regions. Draft legislation indicates it may involve restrictions on travel and public gatherings, tighter censorship and broader authority for law enforcement agencies.”

 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/story/2022-10-19/putin-declares-martial-law-in-annexed-regions-of-ukraine

 

 

.

[Motorin']

15 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

WELCOME TO RUSSIA. OBEY ORDERS: Putin declares martial law in annexed regions of Ukraine. 

 

“The upper house of Russia’s parliament was set to quickly seal Putin’s decision to impose martial law in the four regions. Draft legislation indicates it may involve restrictions on travel and public gatherings, tighter censorship and broader authority for law enforcement agencies.”

 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/story/2022-10-19/putin-declares-martial-law-in-annexed-regions-of-ukraine

 

 

.

 

They've also announced that the four stolen regions are under the protection of Russia's nuclear arsenal. Which leads me to believe they aren't sure if they can hold them with their deteriorating conventional forces.

 

Will Putin uses nuclear weapons on Ukrainian troops retaking self-proclaimed Russian territory, and if so, what should the response be?

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

The quote about limiting aid to a nation besieged by murderous tyrant? 

 

You don't give a crap anyway. Why are you even responding to this? 

Read the quote…it’s REALLY short… and learn basic English phrases. That is not what the term giving someone a ‘blank check’ means and you know it. So that’s why I’m responding to your partisan nonsense. 

[Tiberius]

29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Read the quote…it’s REALLY short… and learn basic English phrases. That is not what the term giving someone a ‘blank check’ means and you know it. So that’s why I’m responding to your partisan nonsense. 

Hypocrite. Total hypocrisy 

 

And I read it and get that he wants to cut funding to Ukraine. Gee, I wonder why 

[SoCal Deek]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Hypocrite. Total hypocrisy 

 

And I read it and get that he wants to cut funding to Ukraine. Gee, I wonder why 

I see. So as long as Ukraine asks for American taxpayer money, the Congress is obligated to give it to them, with no strings attached? Please tell President Biden that. Because that wasn’t his policy when he was the VP. 

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I see. So as long as Ukraine asks for American taxpayer money, the Congress is obligated to give it to them, with no strings attached? Please tell President Biden that. Because that wasn’t his policy when he was the VP. 

So you admit they are going to cut aid, correct? 
 

you could if just said that. Learn to argue coherently

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So you admit they are going to cut aid, correct? 
 

you could if just said that. Learn to argue coherently

Still having trouble with English, I see? Again, for everyone in the class, that’s not what the term “blank check” means.
 

You’re running out of tries. You might want to try logging out and then log back in as someone with a clue. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by SoCal Deek

[Tenhigh]

Tibs, so you are saying we should give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves?  Or at least enough money to buy some?

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, so you are saying we should give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves?  Or at least enough money to buy some?

 

 

Tibs is saying we should have a policy of providing an unlimited amount of aid to Ukraine without regards for conditions or consequences or the impact on our national interests, budget, or other needs, and that anyone objecting to this policy or suggesting there should be clear objectives and goals tied to aid should be ostracized and labeled as an ally of Putin as no descent or debate about this can be tolerated by the establishment.  

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Tibs is saying we should have a policy of providing an unlimited amount of aid to Ukraine without regards for conditions or consequences or the impact on our national interests, budget, or other needs, and that anyone objecting to this policy or suggesting there should be clear objectives and goals tied to aid should be ostracized and labeled as an ally of Putin as no descent or debate about this can be tolerated by the establishment.  

Close….and what McCarthy is saying is that the aid better not be lining the pockets of traditionally corrupt Ukrainian officials with little to none of it seeing the battlefield. Seems pretty darn reasonable to me. I’ve grown accustomed to my tax dollars being burned in the fireplace of my own corrupt government. I’m much less inclined to have it be tossed in a fireplace halfway across the world. 

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Tibs is saying we should have a policy of providing an unlimited amount of aid to Ukraine without regards for conditions or consequences or the impact on our national interests, budget, or other needs, and that anyone objecting to this policy or suggesting there should be clear objectives and goals tied to aid should be ostracized and labeled as an ally of Putin as no descent or debate about this can be tolerated by the establishment.  

I'm not saying we should restrict or cut aid to Ukraine. The GOP is though. And you are happy about that. 

3 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, so you are saying we should give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves?  Or at least enough money to buy some?

 

 

I never said that

 

McCarthy knows the base wants Ukraine to suffer the Russians with less support from us. I mean the Russians are just murdering people because Putin wants to murder people. GOP seems upset we are helping these people defend themselves from that monster

 

You think Putin is a mass murdering terrorists, right? 

[SoCal Deek]

23 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I'm not saying we should restrict or cut aid to Ukraine. The GOP is though. And you are happy about that. 

I never said that

 

McCarthy knows the base wants Ukraine to suffer the Russians with less support from us. I mean the Russians are just murdering people because Putin wants to murder people. GOP seems upset we are helping these people defend themselves from that monster

 

You think Putin is a mass murdering terrorists, right? 

Let me see if I have this correct: You don’t like Putin. Is that right? 

[Tenhigh]

56 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

I never said that

 

McCarthy knows the base wants Ukraine to suffer the Russians with less support from us. I mean the Russians are just murdering people because Putin wants to murder people. GOP seems upset we are helping these people defend themselves from that monster

 

You think Putin is a mass murdering terrorists, right? 

You want to give Ukraine unlimited aid, right?  Why not nukes? Or the wherewithal to get them?

[Tiberius]

28 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

You want to give Ukraine unlimited aid, right?  Why not nukes? Or the wherewithal to get them?

I never said that. 

 

The GOP wants to strangle their war effort, though. That's been stated in no certain terms. 

 

The Pro-Putin crowd loves that. 

 

BTW, is Putin a mass murdering terrorist? 

[Tenhigh]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I never said that. 

 

The GOP wants to strangle their war effort, though. That's been stated in no certain terms. 

 

The Pro-Putin crowd loves that. 

 

BTW, is Putin a mass murdering terrorist? 

Totally. Do you believe that Ukraine should have nukes to defend itself against that mass murdering terrorist?  Yes or no?

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Totally. Do you believe that Ukraine should have nukes to defend itself against that mass murdering terrorist?  Yes or no?

I'd have to give that one some thought. Never thought about it before. 

 

What is your opinion, since you brought it up? 

[Tenhigh]

My opinion is we absolutely should not supply them with nukes. Are you seriously considering it?

[sherpa]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I'd have to give that one some thought. Never thought about it before. 

 

Absolutely, totally absurd.

[Tiberius]

46 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Absolutely, totally absurd.

Yes 

[Tenhigh]

58 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yes 

Just to be clear, are you saying that the idea of giving Ukraine nukes to deter the Russians is absurd?

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Just to be clear, are you saying that the idea of giving Ukraine nukes to deter the Russians is absurd?

Just to be clear, why are you asking? What's the point? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

14 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I'm not saying we should restrict or cut aid to Ukraine. The GOP is though. And you are happy about that.

The majority of Americans believe there should be limits on aid.  And the issue doesn't poll well as a major concern for prospective voters in the mid-terms.  Something like 5% of people polled think Ukraine is a major concern.  But you disagree and apparently so does the administration. 

The problem is this conflict has consequences to the US and the world beyond the desire to support Ukraine and weaken Russia.  Its has caused major issues in the energy and food markets.  It has consequences for alliances and arrangements between the US and other countries by asking many to put their national interests at risk for no benefit to themselves.  It has facilitated what might evolve into a global depression.  When these consequences are weighed against the pursuit of the administration agenda a basic cost vs. benefit evaluation makes it clear the trouble is more than its worth. 

While you might be "all in" on committing an infinite amount of funding and resources for the war an overwhelming majority of Americans are not.

[Tiberius]

15 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The majority of Americans believe there should be limits on aid.  And the issue doesn't poll well as a major concern for prospective voters in the mid-terms.  Something like 5% of people polled think Ukraine is a major concern.  But you disagree and apparently so does the administration. 

The problem is this conflict has consequences to the US and the world beyond the desire to support Ukraine and weaken Russia.  Its has caused major issues in the energy and food markets.  It has consequences for alliances and arrangements between the US and other countries by asking many to put their national interests at risk for no benefit to themselves.  It has facilitated what might evolve into a global depression.  When these consequences are weighed against the pursuit of the administration agenda a basic cost vs. benefit evaluation makes it clear the trouble is more than its worth. 

While you might be "all in" on committing an infinite amount of funding and resources for the war an overwhelming majority of Americans are not.

And appeasement has consequences too. Putin  very much hopes people don't remember that. Xi looking over at Taiwan also hopes people don't realize that  

[SoCal Deek]

48 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The majority of Americans believe there should be limits on aid.  And the issue doesn't poll well as a major concern for prospective voters in the mid-terms.  Something like 5% of people polled think Ukraine is a major concern.  But you disagree and apparently so does the administration. 

The problem is this conflict has consequences to the US and the world beyond the desire to support Ukraine and weaken Russia.  Its has caused major issues in the energy and food markets.  It has consequences for alliances and arrangements between the US and other countries by asking many to put their national interests at risk for no benefit to themselves.  It has facilitated what might evolve into a global depression.  When these consequences are weighed against the pursuit of the administration agenda a basic cost vs. benefit evaluation makes it clear the trouble is more than its worth. 

While you might be "all in" on committing an infinite amount of funding and resources for the war an overwhelming majority of Americans are not.

Great overview. So how about we just do what McCarthy said and put in some effort to make sure there’s a measure of accountability for the tax dollars we’re shoveling into this conflict? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

33 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

And appeasement has consequences too. Putin  very much hopes people don't remember that. Xi looking over at Taiwan also hopes people don't realize that  

The problem with that argument is that appeasement or warfare are not the only options.  The best option would be negotiating a mutually beneficial peace that addresses the needs and concerns of all parties.  

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The problem with that argument is that appeasement or warfare are not the only options.  The best option would be negotiating a mutually beneficial peace that addresses the needs and concerns of all parties.  

Putin, like Hitler before him, will not negotiate. You don't know that? 

[Tenhigh]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Just to be clear, why are you asking? What's the point? 

I want to know how far you are willing to go in your support of Ukraine. Do you support providing them with nukes? Its a simple question.