SoCal Deek Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 10 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Given how wrong you are about the events running up to the war, I think the replies to you have been charitable. They certainly don't merit this whiny crap. Oh I see. So in your version what we’re witnessing is the GOOD outcome? Excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: Oh I see. So in your version what we’re witnessing is the GOOD outcome? Excellent Better than Russia rolling Ukraine and having them under thumb. Yes the current situation is shiite. Yes it could be worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: By doing the hard work of diplomacy and assembling a coalition of our allies to make it clear that ANY incursion would not be tolerated…before it starts. How about that? But what were we doing…watching figure skating and hoping not to embarrass China while they were throwing a party. Are you suggesting that we failed to preempt the war bc we didn't offer a credible threat to go to war with Russia if they invaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 22 minutes ago, aristocrat said: These dudes are stupid cowards. According to them AOC started the war with Russia by voting to send arms to Ukraine to defend themselves from Russian invasion, and everyone will die in a nuclear Holocaust unless we make Ukraine lay down their weapons and be murdered by Russia. Cool story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 8 hours ago, Motorin' said: These dudes are stupid cowards. According to them AOC started the war with Russia by voting to send arms to Ukraine to defend themselves from Russian invasion, and everyone will die in a nuclear Holocaust unless we make Ukraine lay down their weapons and be murdered by Russia. Cool story. Ukraine has become the political litmus test for the right and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 27 minutes ago, meazza said: Ukraine has become the political litmus test for the right and left. It really isn't. For some reason the hard right/alt right thinks we should appease Russia because reasons. The hard left/far left thinks Imperialism is only bad when America does it, so they support Russia. Reasonable people in both parties tend to support Ukraine, because its a really, really easy issue to be right about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 15 hours ago, Motorin' said: Are you suggesting that we failed to preempt the war bc we didn't offer a credible threat to go to war with Russia if they invaded? Yes I am. We've all become way way too comfortable with the inevitably of armed conflicts. We've seen the modern world embroiled in a state of constant ‘war’ for decades now. This is ridiculous! The war machine simply moves from one hot spot to another, hopscotching from region to region. There’s barely even time to take a breath before the next one breaks out. This has NOTHING to do with partisan politics. There’s clearly an appetite for it on both sides of the aisle. I find it to be a huge waste of time, talent, blood and treasure. This most recent conflict wasn’t unforeseen. Everyone saw the build up….everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Ummmmm no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, B-Man said: Ummmmm no. Yeahhhhhh. Fortunately for Ukraine, Joe Biden cultivated alliances across Europe and Asia to help foot the bill, and there's some heavy hitting economies in North America, Europe and Asia. Edited October 13, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: We've all become way way too comfortable with the inevitably of armed conflicts. We've seen the modern world embroiled in a state of constant ‘war’ for decades now. This is ridiculous! The war machine simply moves from one hot spot to another, hopscotching from region to region. There’s barely even time to take a breath before the next one breaks out. This has NOTHING to do with partisan politics. There’s clearly an appetite for it on both sides of the aisle. I find it to be a huge waste of time, talent, blood and treasure. I don't disagree with the general sentiment... Although there's always been a ton of profit made from war... But I just don't see Putin not calling the bluff. He was denying he was going to invade until he did, and he's still refusing to say they are at war. So had we put a coalition together threatening to destroy Russia behind the scenes, and he invades, now we've trigged WWIII or look like total cowards for not following through. Maybe the threat does work, but given the fact that no countries seem willing to go to war with Russia in Ukraine after the invasion, I find it hard to believe a global coalition would have pledged to do so before the invasion. I think we're doing the best we can, giving Ukraine the means to fight the war itself. Isolating Russia from the rest of the world. The off ramp seems non-existent at this point. Putin has staked his regime and probably his life on victory. And Ukraine is as united in defending their country and are willing to go to any length to do so. For me, this war and China's actions towards Taiwan and its own people has wiped a lot of deluded idealism away. For all of the imperfections and wrongdoings I've been critical of our country for over the years, I'm grateful I don't live in a country where you go to jail if you say you're at war, or where entire cities are held hostage if one person has Covid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Motorin' said: I don't disagree with the general sentiment... Although there's always been a ton of profit made from war... But I just don't see Putin not calling the bluff. He was denying he was going to invade until he did, and he's still refusing to say they are at war. So had we put a coalition together threatening to destroy Russia behind the scenes, and he invades, now we've trigged WWIII or look like total cowards for not following through. Maybe the threat does work, but given the fact that no countries seem willing to go to war with Russia in Ukraine after the invasion, I find it hard to believe a global coalition would have pledged to do so before the invasion. I think we're doing the best we can, giving Ukraine the means to fight the war itself. Isolating Russia from the rest of the world. The off ramp seems non-existent at this point. Putin has staked his regime and probably his life on victory. And Ukraine is as united in defending their country and are willing to go to any length to do so. For me, this war and China's actions towards Taiwan and its own people has wiped a lot of deluded idealism away. For all of the imperfections and wrongdoings I've been critical of our country for over the years, I'm grateful I don't live in a country where you go to jail if you say you're at war, or where entire cities are held hostage if one person has Covid. Thanks for the well thought out response. I find it sad how within the course of a century we’ve gone from ‘The War to end all Wars’ to being instead in a state of perpetual war. It’s happened so gradually that nobody even notices or tries to stop it anymore. And again…this has zero to do with partisan politics. We are better than this! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Thanks for the well thought out response. I find it sad how within the course of a century we’ve gone from ‘The War to end all Wars’ to being instead in a state of perpetual war. It’s happened so gradually that nobody even notices or tries to stop it anymore. And again…this has zero to do with partisan politics. We are better than this! I also don't disagree with your sentiment. Though the "war to end all wars" occured in the context of 400 previous years (or more) of perpetual war. I think it's in human nature to want to get our way, and to fight for it when we don't. I don't really have any solutions to offer, and I've mostly tried to avoid the back and forth arguing that happens here, and in real life for the last few months. I'm tired of all the BS. I just want to do my job, spend time with the Misses and watch the Bills on Sunday... I've guess I've officially turned into my parents... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Motorin' said: I also don't disagree with your sentiment. Though the "war to end all wars" occured in the context of 400 previous years (or more) of perpetual war. I think it's in human nature to want to get our way, and to fight for it when we don't. I don't really have any solutions to offer, and I've mostly tried to avoid the back and forth arguing that happens here, and in real life for the last few months. I'm tired of all the BS. I just want to do my job, spend time with the Misses and watch the Bills on Sunday... I've guess I've officially turned into my parents... I’m hoping you meant Mrs…..not misses. 😂😂😂😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 30 minutes ago, B-Man said: So is the "B" for "bot" or "bought"? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 38 minutes ago, B-Man said: Ukraine is much better at getting their message out. Being murdered, raped, bombed, tortured and invaded will tend to make for a more sympathetic narrative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Ukraine is much better at getting their message out. Being murdered, raped, bombed, tortured and invaded will tend to make for a more sympathetic narrative. Some of the stuff online I've seen is downright horrific. And I usually don't mind crazy stuff. I'm hooked on watching videos of intercepted calls. Gives insight into the f'd up mentality of the Russians and their soldiers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 hours ago, yall said: So is the "B" for "bot" or "bought"? Since someone liked this who clearly didn't get the reference, I'm going with "bot"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albwan Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 On a side note...AOC getting wrecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 6 hours ago, B-Man said: Looks like a smart way to communicate during a war. Better than Putin and his long table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy1 said: Looks like a smart way to communicate during a war. Better than Putin and his long table. Is that like King Arthur and the Round Table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 14 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: It really isn't. For some reason the hard right/alt right thinks we should appease Russia because reasons. The hard left/far left thinks Imperialism is only bad when America does it, so they support Russia. Reasonable people in both parties tend to support Ukraine, because its a really, really easy issue to be right about. I think you skipped one part. I haven't posted much here in years so just so you know, I'm all for supporting Ukraine. That being said, there is very little discussion on Twitter. Garry Kasparov would be ratio'd in about 5 minutes if he'd ever make a statement like "Maybe it's time to negotiate" ( Not that he'd ever do that because he wants Putin gone). So yes, you're right about the alt right and far left but you're missing the were supposed to be middle ground but now seem to be uncompromising to even discuss anything but absolute surrender by Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 9 hours ago, meazza said: I think you skipped one part. I haven't posted much here in years so just so you know, I'm all for supporting Ukraine. That being said, there is very little discussion on Twitter. Garry Kasparov would be ratio'd in about 5 minutes if he'd ever make a statement like "Maybe it's time to negotiate" ( Not that he'd ever do that because he wants Putin gone). So yes, you're right about the alt right and far left but you're missing the were supposed to be middle ground but now seem to be uncompromising to even discuss anything but absolute surrender by Russia. Ukraine is the perfect scenario for the military industrial complex. The Left hates Putin because they’re convinced he helped Trump defeat Hillary. The Right loves a good war regardless of who’s fighting it. So the result is a conflict that nobody’s interested in stopping. Unfortunately there are real people caught in the crossfire and nobody cares enough to do much more than put a bumper sticker on their car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 9 hours ago, meazza said: I think you skipped one part. I haven't posted much here in years so just so you know, I'm all for supporting Ukraine. That being said, there is very little discussion on Twitter. Garry Kasparov would be ratio'd in about 5 minutes if he'd ever make a statement like "Maybe it's time to negotiate" ( Not that he'd ever do that because he wants Putin gone). So yes, you're right about the alt right and far left but you're missing the were supposed to be middle ground but now seem to be uncompromising to even discuss anything but absolute surrender by Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Ukraine is the perfect scenario for the military industrial complex. The Left hates Putin because they’re convinced he helped Trump defeat Hillary. The Right loves a good war regardless of who’s fighting it. So the result is a conflict that nobody’s interested in stopping. Unfortunately there are real people caught in the crossfire and nobody cares enough to do much more than put a bumper sticker on their car. That's a pretty silly take. Most people are interested in ending this conflict, but a sovereign nation shouldn't be forced to acquiesce land everytime a nuclear power wags their dick. If you let it happen once it will never end. Edited October 14, 2022 by yall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 11 minutes ago, yall said: That's a pretty silly take. Most people are interested in ending this conflict, but a sovereign nation shouldn't be forced to acquiesce land everytime a nuclear power wags their dick. If you let it happen once it will never end. You’re correct….most regular people want it to end. Those who can actually do something about it, aren’t nearly as motivated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: You’re correct….most regular people want it to end. Those who can actually do something about it, aren’t nearly as motivated. OK how would you end it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 Just now, ALF said: OK how would you end it We need to get actual adults around the table. This has gone on long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 15 hours ago, Albwan said: On a side note...AOC getting wrecked. Who started the war? Idiots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: We need to get actual adults around the table. This has gone on long enough. The problem is no one can reason with Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: We need to get actual adults around the table. This has gone on long enough. That's not an answer. How do you get Putin to withdraw from Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 Just now, Tiberius said: That's not an answer. How do you get Putin to withdraw from Ukraine? How? Pledge NATO will not extend membership to Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 Just now, All_Pro_Bills said: How? Pledge NATO will not extend membership to Ukraine. Why? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and do what they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tiberius said: That's not an answer. How do you get Putin to withdraw from Ukraine? That’s what the discussions need to be about. It’s how all conflicts eventually end. Someone steps in and breaks up the fight. While most seem to believe we’ve yet to reach that point, I think we’re well past it. This has reached a virtual standstill and both fighters have punched themselves out. Just like on the playground it’s time for an adult to step in and separate the two. But instead it looks more like the circle of kids surrounding the combatants are still egging them on, and even throwing them rocks, bottles, and knives. It’s ridiculous! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: How? Pledge NATO will not extend membership to Ukraine. Ukraine was a neutral country and Putin still attacked . NATO preferred Ukraine to be neutral and not provoke Russia , that did not work. 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: That’s what the discussions need to be about. It’s how all conflicts eventually end. Someone steps in and breaks up the fight. While most seem to believe we’ve yet to reach that point, I think we’re well past it. This has reached a virtual standstill and both fighters have punched themselves out. Just like on the playground it’s time for an adult to step in and separate the two. But instead it looks more like the circle of kids surrounding the combatants are still egging them on, and even throwing them rocks, bottles, and knives. It’s ridiculous! The purpose of the UN was to stop wars like this but of course Russia and China have veto power 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: That’s what the discussions need to be about. It’s how all conflicts eventually end. Someone steps in and breaks up the fight. While most seem to believe we’ve yet to reach that point, I think we’re well past it. This has reached a virtual standstill and both fighters have punched themselves out. Just like on the playground it’s time for an adult to step in and separate the two. But instead it looks more like the circle of kids surrounding the combatants are still egging them on, and even throwing them rocks, bottles, and knives. It’s ridiculous! Ukraine is not punched out. You don’t have any serious solutions just complaints about Biden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Why? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and do what they want That sounds like the negotiating position of a spoiled child. And I guess that's exactly what Russia is doing too. What they want, right? If you consider the only option to a resolution is force and you're not willing to negotiate or yield any bargaining points to the other party in exchange for getting what you want, which is peace, through a negotiated and mutual compromise, then don't ask. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: That sounds like the negotiating position of a spoiled child. And I guess that's exactly what Russia is doing too. What they want, right? If you consider the only option to a resolution is force and you're not willing to negotiate or yield any bargaining points to the other party in exchange for getting what you want, which is peace, through a negotiated and mutual compromise, then don't ask. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and should be treated as such. You don’t agree, neither does Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Ukraine is not punched out. You don’t have any serious solutions just complaints about Biden I didn't mention Biden here. Everything isn't about partisan politics Tibs. Do I think the Biden Administration should've done more leading up to this conflict? Absolutely! Do I think more can be done to end it now, instead of continuing to stoke the fire....absolutely! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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