Josh Allen: A winner above all other things

[The Dean]

1 hour ago, AuntieEm said:

   

   Don't know his Hs career stats he was a multiple sport athlete. I'm sure some of his teams were winners at their level.  Otherwise his drive to win isn't worth much if it never propelled him or his teams.

 

   I'd say he's driven to succeed and he drags along his teammates. Josh Allen is the dog that's pulling the Bills wagons in a circle or heading to the location of the next game.

 

  And you can see all the team jumping in line with him to make that journey easier to reach the final destination.

 

 

 

I agree with all of that. But he is NOT a guy that went through his QB career (HS, College and Pro) with a nearly perfect team wining record, as some do. Not a 5 Star recruit. No national champinships, et. He struggled to even get a college team to give him a shot.

 

Typically when someone refers to an athlete as a "winner" they tend to me that most every team they are a part of has won consistantly, rarely lost (if ever).  Urban Meyer was considered "a winner" by most. Even though he never coached in the NFL and history would suggest he would struggle, and most likely fail, the retort was often "But he's a WINNER!". Same with Saban and Spurrier before him.  Of course there are many factors that go into that. And to conclude the teams won BECAUSE of this one person is horribly flawed. But I'm simply saying, this is the typical way "winner" is applied to athletes.

 

42 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Joe Montana is a Champion; Phillip Rivers is not!  IMO, there's a difference between being a winner and being a champion.   If you don't think Josh is a winner; that's on you.  He's a winner in my book!  

 

 

Sure. You can make the definition of almost anything fit with your conclusion. Just try and understand that with athletes, "winner" typically has a different connotation. 

 

17 minutes ago, Heathcliff said:

One word: baller

 

I agree. Or perhaps, "dog".

[AuntieEm]

On 10/14/2021 at 5:07 PM, The Dean said:

 

I agree with all of that. But he is NOT a guy that went through his QB career (HS, College and Pro) with a nearly perfect team wining record, as some do. Not a 5 Star recruit. No national champinships, et. He struggled to even get a college team to give him a shot.

 

Typically when someone refers to an athlete as a "winner" they tend to me that most every team they are a part of has won consistantly, rarely lost (if ever).  Urban Meyer was considered "a winner" by most. Even though he never coached in the NFL and history would suggest he would struggle, and most likely fail, the retort was often "But he's a WINNER!". Same with Saban and Spurrier before him.  Of course there are many factors that go into that. And to conclude the teams won BECAUSE of this one person is horribly flawed. But I'm simply saying, this is the typical way "winner" is applied to athletes.

 

 

Sure. You can make the definition of almost anything fit with your conclusion. Just try and understand that with athletes, "winner" typically has a different connotation. 

 

 

I agree. Or perhaps, "dog".

 

     Lol someone using the term winner typically means the common definition of the word not your version with its stipulations.

 

    Most people can articulate any stipulations to be clearly understood.  Apparently you like to dictate the usage of words around your definitions. 

 

   Feel free to do so with your statements nut you haven't the right to impose your stipulations for anyone else.  Many people have definitions that don't line up with say Webster's dictionary but when they do they usually will add footnote to point out the variation from normal.

 

  When anyone deviates from the commonly accepted definition then its up to that person to clarify the deviation they ascribe to that words meaning.   

 

 To not do so by default means they defer the meaning to the common definition.  Otherwise no one could understand one another if we all just made up our own meanings. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by AuntieEm

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Exactly. I know where the OP is going but so far the only things Josh has won are a single division title and the 2017 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. Josh has a great fighter's mentality but I wait for people to win before calling them winners. Josh feels like a winner all he is missing is the hardware to prove it. 

He’s 32-16

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

He’s 32-16

 

Yep. He has done a hell of a job. To me you earn the word "winner" by winning championships.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. He has done a hell of a job. To me you earn the word "winner" by winning championships.

That ‘s’ there narrows it down to what, 2 active QBs in the NFL?

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

I agree with all of that. But he is NOT a guy that went through his QB career (HS, College and Pro) with a nearly perfect team wining record, as some do. Not a 5 Star recruit. No national champinships, et. He struggled to even get a college team to give him a shot.

 

Typically when someone refers to an athlete as a "winner" they tend to me that most every team they are a part of has won consistantly, rarely lost (if ever).  Urban Meyer was considered "a winner" by most. Even though he never coached in the NFL and history would suggest he would struggle, and most likely fail, the retort was often "But he's a WINNER!". Same with Saban and Spurrier before him.  Of course there are many factors that go into that. And to conclude the teams won BECAUSE of this one person is horribly flawed. But I'm simply saying, this is the typical way "winner" is applied to athletes.

 

 

Sure. You can make the definition of almost anything fit with your conclusion. Just try and understand that with athletes, "winner" typically has a different connotation. 

 

 

I agree. Or perhaps, "dog".

I would say look at Wyoming before, with, and after Allen.  He won more game there than any Qb in like 30 years.  That has helped create the mindset that stats dont matter.  I do not believe he cares what his yards and Tds are after a game.  Just win is his mindset.  If he thinks this way the other guys have no choice. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

Sure. You can make the definition of almost anything fit with your conclusion. Just try and understand that with athletes, "winner" typically has a different connotation. 

 

 

 

 

Look up Webster's Dictionary between "winner" and "champion"!  Your interpretation is simply different, that's fine.   I can say the same about your connotation.  It's semantics, whatever!  He fits the definition of a winner in my opinion; not a champion yet but hopefully soon.   

Edited October 14, 2021 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That ‘s’ there narrows it down to what, 2 active QBs in the NFL?

 

A winner wins championships. That might be one it might be multiple. I am not sure how many active Superbowl winning Quarterbacks there are currently, not many I'd suggest, Brady, Ben, Russ, Mahomes, Rodgers.. Flacco's corpse is still active I think. There are a few others who can claim Championships at the collegiate level. 

 

My trusty old Oxford English Dictionary defines winner as:

 

Winner (n): a person, team or thing that wins something. 

 

Synonym: champion. 

 

I just think it is the wrong word until Josh has put more on the mantlepiece than 1 division title and one bottom of the barrel bowl game with a stupid name. You may consider it semantics but there you are that is my view on it. 

 

It is not in any way a knock on Josh. He is an elite quarterback in the NFL. There are only a handful of people in the world who can say that. But I am gonna hold off on "winner" until he has the Lombardi in his hands. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Mikie2times]

9 hours ago, cwater10 said:

Thanks for a great topic KZ Mike.  Given his path to prominence, and as appreciation for Josh grows, it is a fascinating journey to examine how his reputation as a QB has evolved and where it will go from here.   I continue to try to understand the specific nature of what you are trying to convey.  And I keep hitting my head on a couple of conceptual brick walls.  One key point that we do not share is the idea that the word efficient would be the most common word used to describe Brady, Montana, Young, Brees and Manning.  

 

The term "efficient" is defined as achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.  Those legends may indeed have all been efficient, but to me that is far from what made them memorable.  To me Trent Dilfer, Matt Hasslebeck, or currently Ryan Tannehill is what I think of as an efficient QB.  They are all effective, yet unremarkable in any way other that their result.  The legends are more... way more.  Brady and Montana were absolute killers, cool and poised beyond all measure with the arm talent, charisma and intellect to power incredible leadership and achievement.  Steve Young was an athletic marvel.  Think of his famous highlight where he runs all of the field, sideline to sideline for what seems like a full minute before stumbling into the end zone.  Brees and Manning both had ridiculous arm talent and understanding of X's and O's to take you down.  

 

I agree with you that efficient is not a word commonly associated with Josh, and I am more than good with that.  I do think that as he has matured, he has calmed himself considerably and nurtured that killer nature of Brady and Montana.  We seen that flash.  Interestingly the two most "killer" moments I can think of involve Tyler Kroft.  One was the playoff clincher TD pass against the Steelers in 2019 and again last year to complete the last second comeback against the Rams.  And I do not think of either of those plays, drives or performances as efficient.  Were they winner moments?  Yes, obviously.  But when you compare "winner" with "efficient", I think that you are comparing apples and oranges.  One is a result (winner) and the other is a manner in achieving that result (efficient).

 

I do agree with you that Josh is not a "normal" QB.  I think that the word "Freak" was used earlier in this thread by BrownBear.  I agree with that.  His is a rare combination of attributes, both cerebrally and physically.  He's our unicorn!  And I think that you may be underselling the national dialogue regarding Josh right now.  I believe that early in the season, some remaining skeptics were moved to step forward and say we told you so.  Recent weeks have revealed that skepticism as garbage, and now we are starting to see that reflected.  Josh is now the favorite in the MVP odds.  Buffalo is the odds favorite to win the Super Bowl.  Those are both evidence that the narrative is changing right in front of our eyes and ears.  You will always have your Nick Wrights.  Just like you always had your "Frank Reich should start" crowd.  Let them be.  

 

Thanks again for a tremendous topic.  It's fun to think about these things.  I don't miss the days of Captain Checkdown threads.  Speaking of Trent, as I write this, I am cracking a smile as "efficient" is the word I remember used to describe Trent when he was playing well early on.  Peace...  

 

I very much appreciate the detail in your response. As some have alluded to in the post, I think people have different standards of the words winner or efficient or think about them in different ways. Certainly all of those QB's had other things going and were all stone cold killers. They could all take the top off a defense and Young wasn't some athletic slouch. That said, my view of saying these guys fit the word efficient was just in how the offense was conducted. They knew the ball was going to X pre snap 99% of the time. Levels of accuracy were record breaking or close, pressure was almost impossible just based on the speed of delivery. It was a demoralizing efficiency, which for me felt very similar to the TB led NE drought of the 2000's.

 

I just don't feel that way watching Josh. I feel like teams can get him off the field. He can run hot or cold for stretches. Which to the media and some observers immediately downgrades him as he doesn't fit the style of what so many former greats look like. Then within this, he can run about as well as anybody and makes plays downfield nobody can make. So the game ends and you think, hmmm, Josh could have played better, but then you look at the score and he hung 35+. Then you look at his line and it's 300-350 total yards and 3TD's and and it always is and you have no idea the possible configuration of throws or rushes it took to accomplish that.

 

He creates ways to create points from nowhere, but he does it so consistently, and from my view, yes, it's every couple decade talent, but also, a sheer determination to win. Michael Vick was nothing like Allen, but in freakish talent and general accuracy, he was. Take Vicks freakish talent, apply it to one of the hardest working, highest character, most detail oriented players at the position. What you would see is what we are seeing with Josh. You will have some hot and cold but the is talent is so profound, if the determination is there like it is with Josh, it's almost like a Michael Jordan impact on the field. Things will happen that can't happen and it will happen normally almost allowing a player to singe handedly will a team to victory. As it often appears Josh does for us in closer games in key plays.   

 

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

That would have sufficed..

I say a lot, it's a forum 

 

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Exactly. I know where the OP is going but so far the only things Josh has won are a single division title and the 2017 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. Josh has a great fighter's mentality but I wait for people to win before calling them winners. Josh feels like a winner all he is missing is the hardware to prove it. 

I gave reference to Michael Jordan earlier, he needed experience and help to finally overcome the Pistons. Not having the hardware is part of what is polarizing. If he was the ultimate winner, wouldn't he have won? I still think you need some experience and a supporting cast. Last year very well could have been our 1990 Bulls season, the year the Bulls lost to the Pistons for the last time. You see similarities with the swag and attitude of this team compared to the evolution of the Bulls demeanor towards the Pistons as they got hungrier.  

[cwater10]

29 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

I just don't feel that way watching Josh. I feel like teams can get him off the field. He can run hot or cold for stretches. Which to the media and some observers immediately downgrades him as he doesn't fit the style of what so many former greats look like. Then within this, he can run about as well as anybody and makes plays downfield nobody can make. So the game ends and you think, hmmm, Josh could have played better, but then you look at the score and he hung 35+. Then you look at his line and it's 300-350 total yards and 3TD's and and it always is and you have no idea the possible configuration of throws or rushes it took to accomplish that.

 

He creates ways to create points from nowhere, but he does it so consistently, and from my view, yes, it's every couple decade talent, but also, a sheer determination to win. Michael Vick was nothing like Allen, but in freakish talent and general accuracy, he was. Take Vicks freakish talent, apply it to one of the hardest working, highest character, most detail oriented players at the position. What you would see is what we are seeing with Josh. You will have some hot and cold but the is talent is so profound, if the determination is there like it is with Josh, it's almost like a Michael Jordan impact on the field. Things will happen that can't happen and it will happen normally almost allowing a player to singe handedly will a team to victory. As it often appears Josh does for us in closer games in key plays.   

One of my favorite terms to grow out of this era of Bills football is "The Josh Allen Experience".  It is a full adventure with plenty of highs and a few bumps.  We all kind of look and tilt our heads and try to decide what it is we are seeing.  He's a bit of a Rorschach test in that way.  We all probably see something a little different in his game.  And generally, amongst Bills fans, it totals out as all good.  I think that the national media has also often seen exactly what they expect to see, particularly early on.  They are coming around.  A winner?  There is no hardware yet, but I do believe it is coming.  I sit in the gray area on the "winner" issue.  I do see Josh as a winner right now.  He is a class act, a good person, highly accomplished at a very young age and a pleasure to root for.  I do also see that, in a football sense, he has some unfinished business to fully earn that mantle in full football context.  The 90 Bulls comparison seems spot on.  I hope I still see it that way in 4 months.  Great Thread! 

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

We have played pretty conservative with big leads this year and hes had his fair share of bad weather games and hes still putting up great stats.  People just look at completion percentage and decide whether a qb is good or bad lol it's ridiculous.  You can't compare joshs stats this year to someone like Herbert's who has been in 5 close games in good weather. 

When winning championships in the early days,  neither Brady nor Rothlisberger or Eli Manning put up any gaudy stats...they made big play after big play when the game was on the line.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, KzooMike said:

I gave reference to Michael Jordan earlier, he needed experience and help to finally overcome the Pistons. Not having the hardware is part of what is polarizing. If he was the ultimate winner, wouldn't he have won? I still think you need some experience and a supporting cast. Last year very well could have been our 1990 Bulls season, the year the Bulls lost to the Pistons for the last time. You see similarities with the swag and attitude of this team compared to the evolution of the Bulls demeanor towards the Pistons as they got hungrier.  

 

I don't watch basketball and I was at kindergarten in 1990.

[Chandler#81]

On 10/13/2021 at 7:25 PM, KzooMike said:

Josh seems to be a very polarizing figure in the media and while he is adored by the fan base, at times you see the that polarizing effect even leak out into Bills fans when he plays poorly. I’m trying to understand that more. While I might drop a stat or two, in my opinion stats almost muddy the waters even more.

 

As an example, last year, Josh was had several games where he carved teams up and put up QBR's as good as it gets. But if you said describe Josh in one word, I think the last word I would choose would be “efficient”.

 

If you asked me to describe most the legends in the QB annuals in the last 20-30 years, I would say efficient would be the most common word used. Brady, Montana, Young, Brees, Manning, “efficient” just dominates your mind when you hear those names. They had a robot-like consistency and that is what we have come to visualize when looking at the greats.

 

More recently you see guys like Mahomes who I would also not call “efficient” as far as the first word to describe them. Perhaps, “talented or unique”. Mahomes is pretty consistent in his play, but it’s what he does that so few can that makes you scratch your head. He is also a Super Bowl winner and former MVP, so if he appears inconsistent once in awhile benefit of the doubt is given.

 

If I described Josh in one word it would be “winner”. He is probably the most physically talented QB in the NFL but I feel his drive to just win games is even greater than his talent. At times he can go stretches looking awful and that's what confuses people . Then he does something nobody can, not even Mahomes. Then he leaps a defender gaining 20 yards on the ground. A few hours later you look at the score and we put up 35 points and think, Allen probably could have played even better. With Allen, he will always produce points, because even when he looks inconsistent, he can still become Houdini by air or land at any moment and he is the 2nd most impactful running QB in the NFL. 

 

To me Josh fits the term “winner” more than any QB in the NFL at this time. That said, Josh has not won the big one.  Justifiably so, it’s hard to anoint him as the ultimate “Winner” until that time comes. Until then he seems to be stuck in this efficient ideology of NFL’s QB’s and if that shifts, he then goes to competing against a Super Bowl winning former MVP who is the only guy that can even come close to replicating some of the plays you might see from Allen week to week.

 

Josh is not a normal QB. I don't think he will ever just unload for 5 yards unmercifully breaking your will like his predecessors. As for his sham wow ability, he probably is the top guy, but he's also getting compared to a MVP with a ring. That said nobody will ever convince me Mahomes wants it more or is as tough as Allen. Allen will run through your DT's. He isn't a Brett Farve comp, Brett Farve is a Josh Allen Comp. Farve, even with his stupid arm strength is still less physically gifted and he certainly couldn't run 1/10th as effective as Allen can. 

 

It might be hard for Allen to carve out a true identity which makes people question how good he really is. It unlikely he ever gets the efficiency label applied like many former legends have. That said once the SB rings come, It will be much easier to just label him for what he is. A winner. 

*Post of the Year!*

[nero1]

By the thinking and definitions given, as I have read the posts, Kelly was not a "winner". He didn't win a championship at Miami, or a "Lombardi" in the NFL. Too bad he and Marino were just HOF "losers". Allen is remarkable and he may never win a "Lombardi", but that does not negate the fact that he is winner, i.e. one who wins.

[Captain Hindsight]

When Mahommes fumbled at the end of the game sunday night and then it got kicked, Mahommes stopped on the play and just watched. I get they were down 18 and the game was over, but Josh would have knocked 3 guys over to recover that ball. He wants to win more than anything and I love that.

 

Combine it with one of the gifted QBs ever and you've got yourself a fun guy to watch

[Greg S]

35 minutes ago, nero1 said:

By the thinking and definitions given, as I have read the posts, Kelly was not a "winner". He didn't win a championship at Miami, or a "Lombardi" in the NFL. Too bad he and Marino were just HOF "losers". Allen is remarkable and he may never win a "Lombardi", but that does not negate the fact that he is winner, i.e. one who wins.

 

The Bills are one of the main reasons why Marino never got a ring or had the chance to get a ring. Miami had some really good teams in the early 90's but got stopped by the Bills in the playoffs.

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

When Mahommes fumbled at the end of the game sunday night and then it got kicked, Mahommes stopped on the play and just watched. I get they were down 18 and the game was over, but Josh would have knocked 3 guys over to recover that ball. He wants to win more than anything and I love that.

 

Combine it with one of the gifted QBs ever and you've got yourself a fun guy to watch

give the guy a break.   It was not their day.  They were equally stunned....I have seen Mahomes several times taking one for the team

[Captain Hindsight]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

give the guy a break.   It was not their day.  They were equally stunned....I have seen Mahomes several times taking one for the team

Nah, eff that smug asswipe

[Big C]

Josh has both the talent and desire to win. He is driven to keep working to improve and many with his gifts aren’t. I believe in him and have since year one for that reason. 

On 10/14/2021 at 6:49 AM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

The kid went from nobody wanting him out of high school; going to JUCO, sending out thousands of emails and tape, and finally one school giving him an opportunity.  He turned that opportunity into the 7th overall pick in the 2018 draft; and in his fourth year is the second highest paid QB in the NFL, and one of the bright young stars in the league.  He worked his ass off for that!   That's winning - winning in life and on the football field.   You know what's not winning - sitting at your desk eating cheetos racking up over 36.8k meaningless forum posts like this one.  

 

love posts like this where a guy just throws insults at a well respected, valuable poster for simply making a rationale argument.

[BringBackFlutie]

On 10/14/2021 at 9:49 AM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

The kid went from nobody wanting him out of high school; going to JUCO, sending out thousands of emails and tape, and finally one school giving him an opportunity.  He turned that opportunity into the 7th overall pick in the 2018 draft; and in his fourth year is the second highest paid QB in the NFL, and one of the bright young stars in the league.  He worked his ass off for that!   That's winning - winning in life and on the football field.   You know what's not winning - sitting at your desk eating cheetos racking up over 36.8k meaningless forum posts like this one.  

 

I'm dying. 😅 I need to block this site from all devices between the hours of 9 and 5.