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Josh Allen: A winner above all other things


KzooMike
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Josh seems to be a very polarizing figure in the media and while he is adored by the fan base, at times you see the that polarizing effect even leak out into Bills fans when he plays poorly. I’m trying to understand that more. While I might drop a stat or two, in my opinion stats almost muddy the waters even more.

 

As an example, last year, Josh was had several games where he carved teams up and put up QBR's as good as it gets. But if you said describe Josh in one word, I think the last word I would choose would be “efficient”.

 

If you asked me to describe most the legends in the QB annuals in the last 20-30 years, I would say efficient would be the most common word used. Brady, Montana, Young, Brees, Manning, “efficient” just dominates your mind when you hear those names. They had a robot-like consistency and that is what we have come to visualize when looking at the greats.

 

More recently you see guys like Mahomes who I would also not call “efficient” as far as the first word to describe them. Perhaps, “talented or unique”. Mahomes is pretty consistent in his play, but it’s what he does that so few can that makes you scratch your head. He is also a Super Bowl winner and former MVP, so if he appears inconsistent once in awhile benefit of the doubt is given.

 

If I described Josh in one word it would be “winner”. He is probably the most physically talented QB in the NFL but I feel his drive to just win games is even greater than his talent. At times he can go stretches looking awful and that's what confuses people . Then he does something nobody can, not even Mahomes. Then he leaps a defender gaining 20 yards on the ground. A few hours later you look at the score and we put up 35 points and think, Allen probably could have played even better. With Allen, he will always produce points, because even when he looks inconsistent, he can still become Houdini by air or land at any moment and he is the 2nd most impactful running QB in the NFL. 

 

To me Josh fits the term “winner” more than any QB in the NFL at this time. That said, Josh has not won the big one.  Justifiably so, it’s hard to anoint him as the ultimate “Winner” until that time comes. Until then he seems to be stuck in this efficient ideology of NFL’s QB’s and if that shifts, he then goes to competing against a Super Bowl winning former MVP who is the only guy that can even come close to replicating some of the plays you might see from Allen week to week.

 

Josh is not a normal QB. I don't think he will ever just unload for 5 yards unmercifully breaking your will like his predecessors. As for his sham wow ability, he probably is the top guy, but he's also getting compared to a MVP with a ring. That said nobody will ever convince me Mahomes wants it more or is as tough as Allen. Allen will run through your DT's. He isn't a Brett Farve comp, Brett Farve is a Josh Allen Comp. Farve, even with his stupid arm strength is still less physically gifted and he certainly couldn't run 1/10th as effective as Allen can. 

 

It might be hard for Allen to carve out a true identity which makes people question how good he really is. It unlikely he ever gets the efficiency label applied like many former legends have. That said once the SB rings come, It will be much easier to just label him for what he is. A winner. 

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Josh is an unusual person in that he believed in himself when no one else did, and has proved his self belief was correct. Not many people can say that.

 

He's a winner in the true sense of self that he has.  I am jealous of him. But also I am not 6'5 and fast

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1 minute ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

When I need to push through something difficult I sometimes think about that Thanksgiving game in 2019 when Josh picked up the botched snap on the QB sneak and muscled through the entire Cowboys DL for a 4 yard gain.  Am I a 32 year old man with a 25 year old man as a role model?  Maybe.

Perhaps the most winner, winner play of his career thus far. He has these singular plays that describe who he is in a much broader sense. What separates him from everybody.  

 

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, and all those guys you mention were winners too, and I think that's what most fans will remember about them.

 

When I think about Allen, the one word that comes to mind more than any other is "FREAK."

If you asked fans to describe the style of play of those players, I don't think it would be winner. It would be methodical or efficient and Josh is neither. Remembered as a winner? Sure. I would certainly agree with that. 

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Agree that Josh is a winner.  I also believe that he is the most dynamic QB talent that we may have seen to date, and that this ride is just getting started.  For a quick description, I cannot limit myself to just one word.   In the moment,  3 words that jump out are competitor, talent and driven.  He is by no means a finished work, and that is seriously such a great thing to ponder.  But there have been moments where the possible has flashed.  And they are breathtaking as a football fan. I think of the original hurdle in 2018 when we all watched slack jawed, including the Vikings, saying WTH did we just see?  

 

I think of the Miami game in week 2 of last year, when it looked like everything had just slowed down for Josh.  In that game, it was the first time that I looked and saw in Allen, a player toying with the opposition.  He flashed that a few more times throughout last year and then on this past Sunday night, there it was again.  Josh was in full ownership of the Chiefs in that game.  They knew it every bit as much as Josh did.  You could even see it reflected in Mahomes face from the bench in the 4th quarter.  They had no answer for him.  

 

In those moments, all of those traits, the competitor, the talent, the driven individual and teammate come together to create one hell of a problem for a defense.  I think that we will see those moments become more consistent and frequent.  I joked during the weather delay during the game the other night that if felt like we still couldn't have nice things, even when we have nice things.  But it appears that we can.  I think that we just might have a steady stream of nice things coming our way as a fan base.  Players now WANT to come here.  This is going to be nuts for a few years.  Get ready!

Edited by cwater10
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   The funny thing is there is just no magic formula to finding a franchise QB…Tom was a 6th round pick…Aaron fell till the late first round…Dak was round 4…Russell was Round 3 etc….

   But what makes all these players unique is their teammates are just drawn to them even when Josh was a rookie to hear his teammates talk about wanting to literally run through a wall for the guy….they just have an aura and Josh has always had that like their teammates just don’t want to let them down 

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The only issue I have with the "Winner" label is, unlike most of the QBs in the NFL, Josh has NOT been on a winning team from youth to the NFL. Some of these guys have never experienced losing or hardship. Josh certainly has seemed to turn himself into a winner, I'll give you that. But he knows what losing is like and seems to know how to recover.  I don't see this team getting too low, or too high, based on the results of a game or two. Part of that may be due to Josh's path to the NFL

 

 

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8 minutes ago, itaos said:

I don't disagree with your evaluation but with the amount of times Tebow was described as a winner despite his flaws taints the term a bit. 

Fair, but I think you need to have a certain level of talent to even be in the running of being called a singular term. Tebow had that level of talent in college and yes, I would 100% define him as a " winner" but his talent just wasn't strong enough in the NFL. High character, determined, these also fit Josh, but they also fit Brady, Montana, Young, etc. Something about Josh doesn't make people feel as comfortable saying he is one of the best and I think in general it's mainly because he isn't that efficient at times. Not like the best have been, but people then get confused and they downgrade him when he actually offsets any efficiency issues by basically being Uncle Rico in a Captain America costume. 

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2 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Something about Josh doesn't make people feel as comfortable saying he is one of the best and I think in general it's mainly because he isn't that efficient at times. Not like the best have been, but people then get confused and they downgrade him when he actually offsets any efficiency issues by basically being Uncle Rico in a Batman costume. 

True, but I do think the dam is breaking and acknowledgement is starting to flow his way.  Some people will never give proper due, others will delay until it's just so obvious it cannot be denied.  I remember thinking that Reggie Jackson and Terry Bradshaw sucked when I was a teenager.  A few short years later I was arguing for their place as the all time greats that they were.  I remember thinking that Michael Jordan was just an over rated ball hog.  Lol...   It takes time.  This body of work is still forming.  I have to believe that Josh will get his due praise in time.

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1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

Josh seems to be a very polarizing figure in the media and while he is adored by the fan base, at times you see the that polarizing effect even leak out into Bills fans when he plays poorly. I’m trying to understand that more. While I might drop a stat or two, in my opinion stats almost muddy the waters even more.

 

As an example, last year, Josh was had several games where he carved teams up and put up QBR's as good as it gets. But if you said describe Josh in one word, I think the last word I would choose would be “efficient”.

 

If you asked me to describe most the legends in the QB annuals in the last 20-30 years, I would say efficient would be the most common word used. Brady, Montana, Young, Brees, Manning, “efficient” just dominates your mind when you hear those names. They had a robot-like consistency and that is what we have come to visualize when looking at the greats.

 

More recently you see guys like Mahomes who I would also not call “efficient” as far as the first word to describe them. Perhaps, “talented or unique”. Mahomes is pretty consistent in his play, but it’s what he does that so few can that makes you scratch your head. He is also a Super Bowl winner and former MVP, so if he appears inconsistent once in awhile benefit of the doubt is given.

 

If I described Josh in one word it would be “winner”. He is probably the most physically talented QB in the NFL but I feel his drive to just win games is even greater than his talent. At times he can go stretches looking awful and that's what confuses people . Then he does something nobody can, not even Mahomes. Then he leaps a defender gaining 20 yards on the ground. A few hours later you look at the score and we put up 35 points and think, Allen probably could have played even better. With Allen, he will always produce points, because even when he looks inconsistent, he can still become Houdini by air or land at any moment and he is the 2nd most impactful running QB in the NFL. 

 

To me Josh fits the term “winner” more than any QB in the NFL at this time. That said, Josh has not won the big one.  Justifiably so, it’s hard to anoint him as the ultimate “Winner” until that time comes. Until then he seems to be stuck in this efficient ideology of NFL’s QB’s and if that shifts, he then goes to competing against a Super Bowl winning former MVP who is the only guy that can even come close to replicating some of the plays you might see from Allen week to week.

 

Josh is not a normal QB. I don't think he will ever just unload for 5 yards unmercifully breaking your will like his predecessors. As for his sham wow ability, he probably is the top guy, but he's also getting compared to a MVP with a ring. That said nobody will ever convince me Mahomes wants it more or is as tough as Allen. Allen will run through your DT's. He isn't a Brett Farve comp, Brett Farve is a Josh Allen Comp. Farve, even with his stupid arm strength is still less physically gifted and he certainly couldn't run 1/10th as effective as Allen can. 

 

It might be hard for Allen to carve out a true identity which makes people question how good he really is. It unlikely he ever gets the efficiency label applied like many former legends have. That said once the SB rings come, It will be much easier to just label him for what he is. A winner. 

I lived in Pittsburgh all the drought years....Josh's career and play resembles a lot like Big Ben,,,He had all those Houndini acts including one in Super Bowl to WIN those big games.   He was never in the same conversation as Brady and Manning...but he was supreme in his own abilities and the unique difference he made to the Steelers.  The Steelers let him loose all the time....Coincidentally,  Tomlin also was a Defensive guy but felt comfortable to give the reins to his QB.

32 minutes ago, The Dean said:

The only issue I have with the "Winner" label is, unlike most of the QBs in the NFL, Josh has NOT been on a winning team from youth to the NFL. Some of these guys have never experienced losing or hardship. Josh certainly has seemed to turn himself into a winner, I'll give you that. But he knows what losing is like and seems to know how to recover.  I don't see this team getting too low, or too high, based on the results of a game or two. Part of that may be due to Josh's path to the NFL

 

 

HUMBLE and HUNGRY

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5 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I lived in Pittsburgh all the drought years....Josh's career and play resembles a lot like Big Ben,,,He had all those Houndini acts including one in Super Bowl to WIN those big games.   He was never in the same conversation as Brady and Manning...but he was supreme in his own abilities and the unique difference he made to the Steelers.  The Steelers let him loose all the time....Coincidentally,  Tomlin also was a Defensive guy but felt comfortable to give the reins to his QB.

I think off the field Ben is a low character POS. I live about 30 minutes from where he went to high school and the stories vibrate well past me. That said, thank you for the post. I think you really captured what I was trying to convey. On the field Ben was a force, but he was never included with those other players. Still, he could do things those other players couldn't do and often times it's why he would beat those players.  

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Thanks for a great topic KZ Mike.  Given his path to prominence, and as appreciation for Josh grows, it is a fascinating journey to examine how his reputation as a QB has evolved and where it will go from here.   I continue to try to understand the specific nature of what you are trying to convey.  And I keep hitting my head on a couple of conceptual brick walls.  One key point that we do not share is the idea that the word efficient would be the most common word used to describe Brady, Montana, Young, Brees and Manning.  

 

The term "efficient" is defined as achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.  Those legends may indeed have all been efficient, but to me that is far from what made them memorable.  To me Trent Dilfer, Matt Hasslebeck, or currently Ryan Tannehill is what I think of as an efficient QB.  They are all effective, yet unremarkable in any way other that their result.  The legends are more... way more.  Brady and Montana were absolute killers, cool and poised beyond all measure with the arm talent, charisma and intellect to power incredible leadership and achievement.  Steve Young was an athletic marvel.  Think of his famous highlight where he runs all of the field, sideline to sideline for what seems like a full minute before stumbling into the end zone.  Brees and Manning both had ridiculous arm talent and understanding of X's and O's to take you down.  

 

I agree with you that efficient is not a word commonly associated with Josh, and I am more than good with that.  I do think that as he has matured, he has calmed himself considerably and nurtured that killer nature of Brady and Montana.  We seen that flash.  Interestingly the two most "killer" moments I can think of involve Tyler Kroft.  One was the playoff clincher TD pass against the Steelers in 2019 and again last year to complete the last second comeback against the Rams.  And I do not think of either of those plays, drives or performances as efficient.  Were they winner moments?  Yes, obviously.  But when you compare "winner" with "efficient", I think that you are comparing apples and oranges.  One is a result (winner) and the other is a manner in achieving that result (efficient).

 

I do agree with you that Josh is not a "normal" QB.  I think that the word "Freak" was used earlier in this thread by BrownBear.  I agree with that.  His is a rare combination of attributes, both cerebrally and physically.  He's our unicorn!  And I think that you may be underselling the national dialogue regarding Josh right now.  I believe that early in the season, some remaining skeptics were moved to step forward and say we told you so.  Recent weeks have revealed that skepticism as garbage, and now we are starting to see that reflected.  Josh is now the favorite in the MVP odds.  Buffalo is the odds favorite to win the Super Bowl.  Those are both evidence that the narrative is changing right in front of our eyes and ears.  You will always have your Nick Wrights.  Just like you always had your "Frank Reich should start" crowd.  Let them be.  

 

Thanks again for a tremendous topic.  It's fun to think about these things.  I don't miss the days of Captain Checkdown threads.  Speaking of Trent, as I write this, I am cracking a smile as "efficient" is the word I remember used to describe Trent when he was playing well early on.  Peace...  

Edited by cwater10
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12 hours ago, KzooMike said:

I think off the field Ben is a low character POS. I live about 30 minutes from where he went to high school and the stories vibrate well past me. That said, thank you for the post. I think you really captured what I was trying to convey. On the field Ben was a force, but he was never included with those other players. Still, he could do things those other players couldn't do and often times it's why he would beat those players.  

 

When its all said and done I think Allen's career will be similar to Ben's. Plays at least 15 years here, wins a couple of Super Bowls, a bunch of AFCE titles, and a bunch of great regular season and playoff moments. When its over Bills fans will pay tribute to him in Canton, Ohio with him wearing a gold jacket.

Edited by Greg S
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A Buffalo Bill...!!!

 

I can recall that 2018 draft with Cleveland with picks 1 & 4... the NY Giants at #2... the NY Jets at #3... Denver at #5... Indy Colts at #6. 

 

Baker Mayfield

Saquon Barkley

Sam Darnold

Denzel Ward

Bradly Chubb

Quenton Nelson

 

Just so happy the Bills took a gamble on an unknown kid from Wyoming!  Not USC, not UCLA, not Louisville...Wyoming! 

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3 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

A Buffalo Bill...!!!

 

I can recall that 2018 draft with Cleveland with picks 1 & 4... the NY Giants at #2... the NY Jets at #3... Denver at #5... Indy Colts at #6. 

 

Baker Mayfield

Saquon Barkley

Sam Darnold

Denzel Ward

Bradly Chubb

Quenton Nelson

 

Just so happy the Bills took a gamble on an unknown kid from Wyoming!  Not USC, not UCLA, not Louisville...Wyoming! 

 

Remember when Jets fans were bragging about how Darnold was better :)

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13 hours ago, The Dean said:

The only issue I have with the "Winner" label is, unlike most of the QBs in the NFL, Josh has NOT been on a winning team from youth to the NFL. Some of these guys have never experienced losing or hardship. Josh certainly has seemed to turn himself into a winner, I'll give you that. But he knows what losing is like and seems to know how to recover.  I don't see this team getting too low, or too high, based on the results of a game or two. Part of that may be due to Josh's path to the NFL

 

Exactly. I know where the OP is going but so far the only things Josh has won are a single division title and the 2017 Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. Josh has a great fighter's mentality but I wait for people to win before calling them winners. Josh feels like a winner all he is missing is the hardware to prove it. 

Edited by GunnerBill
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