Honest discussion about racism (non political)

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

58 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Then go find it and share it with us.  Perhaps that data isn't available.   

 

I believe we have already established that there are clearly different outcomes in sentencing based on gender despite consistent laws, as you so aptly pointed out.  Why is it so hard to believe that there could be bias in the system based on race in a country where blacks couldn't use the same bathrooms as whites 70 years ago?

Beliefs are for religion. I’m much more interested in facts, root causes and solutions than narratives and beliefs.  

When political apparatuses publish findings, it’s logical to be skeptical and there is glaring qualifier language around one of the biggest factors in actually determining sentencing.

 

However, Sentencing disparity is illegal so if it’s real, people need to start getting disbarred.  It should be very easy to hold individual judges accountable. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Beliefs are for religion. I’m much more interested in facts, root causes and solutions than narratives and beliefs.  

When political apparatuses publish findings, it’s logical to be skeptical and there is glaring qualifier language around one of the biggest factors in actually determining sentencing.

 

However, Sentencing disparity is illegal so if it’s real, people need to start getting disbarred.  It should be very easy to hold individual judges accountable. 

I implore you to do a modicum of research and go find some facts, any facts, pertinent to the matter that you won't summarily dismiss.  

[Motorin']

20 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I work with a number of really successful black people. They don’t allow any of this negativity narrative to dictate their pursuit of happiness. 

 

I want to go back and talk about where I agree with you. I think anybody can fall I to the trap of focusing exclusively on the negative and making excuses for their lack of success. I really like Sean McDermott's "be your best self" life philosophy. No matter what life throws at you, you have to believe in your ability to dig deep, work hard and succeed.

 

A personal philosophy that looks at the good and the potential in yourself and other people, while valuing hard work and success, is not at all incompatible with fighting for a fairer world for all. 

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, Tiberius said:

You would? Why is that? Are you oppressed? 

You have to admit that slavery and Jim Crow were systems, right? And those systems relied or were supported by racism, right? 

 

Whay systems do we have today analogous to Jim Crow and slavery?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

27 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I implore you to do a modicum of research and go find some facts, any facts, pertinent to the matter that you won't summarily dismiss.  

You post a study that’s supposed to exemplify something with material holes and now it’s my problem? 

[Jauronimo]

23 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

You post a study that’s supposed to exemplify something with material holes and now it’s my problem? 

You think lack of perfect data is a material weakness.  Makes me wonder how you formed your core beliefs in the first place.

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Its not just laws we need to focus on but the differential treatment of people under the same laws.  Look at the disparity in sentencing by race and gender.  In the NFL, the rule book is the same for all teams. But if we had to play the Patriots 16 times a year with Walt Coleman calling the games, an impartial rule book doesn't mean the game is fair.

 

This is just one example.

 

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

 

I found this interesting In the report.

 

Quote

Female offenders of all races received shorter sentences than White male offenders during the Post-Report period, as they had for the prior four periods. 

 

So maybe its not just race since women regardless of race are the real Patriots in the justice system.

 

I had originally thought it had mostly to do with money but your report says they took that into account.

 

Still not sure.  Money goes a long way in the criminal justice system. 

 

The OJ trial proved the system works. A rich black man can get off just like a rich white man.

 

A good way to address this would be to somehow take the effects of money out of the process somehow IMHO.

 

Another aspect may be related is when I watch those true crime shows on TV where they show the questioning, way more white people ask for a lawyer whereas most of the black people sit there and eventually confess which results in a harsher sentence.  I'm yelling at my TV, "ASK FOR A LAWYER AND STOP TALKING", but few do.  Purely anecdotal sure, but may play a role too.  Maybe a little education in the POC community on how to deal with police and the law if arrested would help?

[Governor]

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

because it says there clearly… see that’s how they get you. 
 

They seem extremely careful to say “past violence” in multiple places not “past criminal history”. 
 

So hypothetically if you were busted four times selling heroin to 12 year olds, of course the fifth time the sentence is longer, but it’s not necessarily a parameter in the analysis they way they couch it, because it wasn’t past violence. Thus in this analysis a career non violent criminal looks just like a first time offender. 
 

Id like to see the same sentencing analysis for first time offenders. Or bucketed by same criminal history. That’s my point. 

This is often the case but what you’ll notice is that cops oftentimes stack charges on blacks and multiple charges will stick when whites can usually plea down to 1 or 2 charges, or get a felony knocked down to a misdemeanor, etc.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

51 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

You think lack of perfect data is a material weakness.  Makes me wonder how you formed your core beliefs in the first place.

You don’t think non-violent priors impact sentencing? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

40 minutes ago, Governor said:

This is often the case but what you’ll notice is that cops oftentimes stack charges on blacks and multiple charges will stick when whites can usually plea down to 1 or 2 charges, or get a felony knocked down to a misdemeanor, etc.

So say this is true what’s the solution?? What about all black police force? Will that work? 

[Governor]

12 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So say this is true what’s the solution?? What about all black police force? Will that work? 

I dunno. If a white kid goes into your city and buys heroin then gets pulled over on his way home out of the city, they will usually get hit with possession of heroin.

 

if a black kid does the same exact thing, they will get hit with possession with intent to distribute AND trafficking heroin, which is a total game-changer.

[BillStime]

Just now, Governor said:

if a black kid does the same exact thing, they will get hit with possession with intent to distribute AND trafficking heroin, which is a total game-changer.

 

or death

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just now, Governor said:

I dunno. If a white kid goes into your city and buys heroin then gets pulled over on his way home out of the city, they will usually get hit with possession of heroin.

 

if a black kid does the same exact thing, they will get hit with possession with intent to distribute AND trafficking heroin, which is a total game-changer.

Ok, so how do you solve that? If the cop is not white is this the same outcome? 
 

and aren’t the escalators defined by quantity? 

[Chef Jim]

6 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Luckily for dumb people like me who don't know how the world works,  really smart people (not me clearly) have digitized the entire record of births and census records of our entire nation. 

They have?  So they have the technology to accurately trace back a person’s genetics 300 years?  Even if they could what markers are they using to link the person to a slave from 300 plus year ago?  
 

Can you at least link me to something that can educate us on that technology. 

[Motorin']

24 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

They have?  So they have the technology to accurately trace back a person’s genetics 300 years?  Even if they could what markers are they using to link the person to a slave from 300 plus year ago?  
 

Can you at least link me to something that can educate us on that technology. 

 

There's many resources, but the Mormon's have done a really good job providing resources and tools, including the digitization of census records going back to the 1600's. 

 

There's a lot of information available https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Quick_Guide_to_African_American_Records

[Chef Jim]

10 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

There's many resources, but the Mormon's have done a really good job providing resources and tools, including the digitization of census records going back to the 1600's. 

 

There's a lot of information available https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Quick_Guide_to_African_American_Records

Census records?  How do we definitively connect blacks today to slaves of 400 years ago without DNA?  
 

They don’t even know who built our family home 155 years ago. 
 

 

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

Census records?  How do we definitively connect blacks today to slaves of 400 years ago without DNA?  
 

They don’t even know who built our family home 155 years ago. 
 

 

 

Is your concern about a new breed of welfare queens cheating the system, or that not everyone's genealogy may be unearthed? 

 

The descendants of the 4 million black Americans who were freed in 1865, just 155 years ago is a good place to start. 

 

Sorry you haven't been able to determine who built your parents house. Do you know who your great grandparents are? Can you prove it? I'm going to guess the answer is yes. 

[Chef Jim]

18 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Is your concern about a new breed of welfare queens cheating the system, or that not everyone's genealogy may be unearthed? 

 

The descendants of the 4 million black Americans who were freed in 1865, just 155 years ago is a good place to start. 

 

Sorry you haven't been able to determine who built your parents house. Do you know who your great grandparents are? Can you prove it? I'm going to guess the answer is yes. 

What proof will be required to prove they are descendants from slaves? 
 

I can trace my maternal grandfather’s family back to The Fortune which was the second ship to arrive at Plymouth.  I know it’s true. I saw it on the internet. 
 

On my dad’s side not past my grandfather.  
 

So what will be the cost for 100 years of free college and what will that add to the cost of and 1/8th of Hindu Kush? 

[Westside]

28 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Is your concern about a new breed of welfare queens cheating the system, or that not everyone's genealogy may be unearthed? 

 

The descendants of the 4 million black Americans who were freed in 1865, just 155 years ago is a good place to start. 

 

Sorry you haven't been able to determine who built your parents house. Do you know who your great grandparents are? Can you prove it? I'm going to guess the answer is yes. 

Serious question, do you think giving POC a check for however is decided, will end racism? Or playing the victim card once again after the money is gone? 
What exactly do you think that will solve? Will our nation be healed and whole again once the checks are distributed? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

34 minutes ago, Bidens_basement said:

Serious question, do you think giving POC a check for however is decided, will end racism? Or playing the victim card once again after the money is gone? 
What exactly do you think that will solve? Will our nation be healed and whole again once the checks are distributed? 

not completely opposed to engage in this conversation. 
 

what would it cost us to end this unproductive conversation? I’d be ok if all of my 80 or 90k tax dollars went there if we can be done with this convo

[Motorin']

6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

not completely opposed to engage in this conversation. 
 

what would it cost us to end this unproductive conversation? I’d be ok if all of my 80 or 90k tax dollars went there if we can be done with this convo

 

Like most of skepticism against the existance of racism in this thread, it comes down to a bunch of middle aged white guys feelings. 

[Doc Brown]

14 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

How is the government taking care of me better than ANYONE? 

 

So at what point of "diminishing returns" does the effect of things such as slavery and Jim Crowe no longer have an effect on POC?  

Future generations is my main question when it comes to the idea of reparations if we as a society feel descendants of slaves deserve to be compensated.  Let's say we do agree that reparations should be made in a one time cash payment.  We determine who should receive reparations and who and how we pay for them.  Does the next generation also get reparation payments of some kind?

 

For example, let's say a POC who is a new parent receives a slavery reparation of 10k dollars and bets 10k on the Dolphins winning the AFC East this year.  When the Bills win the AFC East do we as a society have an obligation owe anything to that child since the racism hasn't vanished  because the child hasn't benefited financially.  Is it society's fault the parent was dumb enough to think Tua would take that next step? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Like most of skepticism against the existance of racism in this thread, it comes down to a bunch of middle aged white guys feelings. 

 

Well and people who think they need to be social justice warriors because their subconscious racism and guilt about it has them believing people of certain skin color can’t achieve things without their help. 
 

I’m do not harbor guilt because I do believe in equality and surround my self, friends, coworkers and family with diversity and not any isms. You keep going with your skin color ideologies, some day the rest of you will die off and this will end. 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Governor]

13 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Ok, so how do you solve that? If the cop is not white is this the same outcome? 
 

and aren’t the escalators defined by quantity? 

I’m not really convinced that our problems magically disappear by putting more black cops in certain areas, just like I wasn’t sold on body cams.

 

I guess you could just get rid of the intent to distribute altogether and hit people with simple possession.

 

We basically have a tug of war with police and the courts. Judges are moving away from long drug sentences and often drop many charges, so the cops feel they have to stack more charges to get a few to stick to keep that individual off the street for awhile.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Governor

[All_Pro_Bills]

11 minutes ago, Governor said:

I’m not really convinced that our problems magically disappear by putting more black cops in certain areas, just like I wasn’t sold on body cams.

 

I guess you could just get rid of the intent to distribute altogether and hit people with simple possession.

 

We basically have a tug of war with police and the courts. Judges are moving away from long drug sentences and often drop many charges, so the cops feel they have to stack more charges to get a few to stick to keep that individual off the street for awhile.

Charges on Intent to distribute may come down to weight or quantity and how many "bags" the suspect is holding.  One bag, no intent.  Multiple bags, intent.   

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Like most of skepticism against the existance of racism in this thread, it comes down to a bunch of middle aged white guys feelings. 

It was a long and winding road you took to get there, but God love ya, you got here.  

[Governor]

12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Charges on Intent to distribute may come down to weight or quantity and how many "bags" the suspect is holding.  One bag, no intent.  Multiple bags, intent.   

Right, but when you’re talking about bundles of heroin, it isn’t uncommon for a “user” to have a brick in their possession, which is just many individual, tiny bags, that could appear the same as what the street dealer would have in his possession.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Governor

[Chef Jim]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Future generations is my main question when it comes to the idea of reparations if we as a society feel descendants of slaves deserve to be compensated.  Let's say we do agree that reparations should be made in a one time cash payment.  We determine who should receive reparations and who and how we pay for them.  Does the next generation also get reparation payments of some kind?

 

For example, let's say a POC who is a new parent receives a slavery reparation of 10k dollars and bets 10k on the Dolphins winning the AFC East this year.  When the Bills win the AFC East do we as a society have an obligation owe anything to that child since the racism hasn't vanished  because the child hasn't benefited financially.  Is it society's fault the parent was dumb enough to think Tua would take that next step? 

My main issue with reparations is very simple.  Giving people money solves nothing. 70% of people who win a lottery or windfall go broke.  We know this.  We’ve seen this. However for some reason we keep doing this.  @Motorin'’s idea of giving them a free education is somewhat better but how many people with a college education go end up broke or on the street.  Am education promises nothing. It’s what you do with it that is the key and that comes from upbringing.  It’s a feel good idea that will likely do absolutely NOTHING.  

[Tiberius]

16 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Whay systems do we have today analogous to Jim Crow and slavery?

I would say none. That doesn’t mean that the past isn’t still weighing on us. Black people still suffer the poverty from that legacy. 

[Westside]

25 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I would say none. That doesn’t mean that the past isn’t still weighing on us. Black people still suffer the poverty from that legacy. 

How much money in reparations will heal this country?

$10,000

$20,000

???????

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I found this interesting In the report.

 

 

So maybe its not just race since women regardless of race are the real Patriots in the justice system.

 

I had originally thought it had mostly to do with money but your report says they took that into account.

 

Still not sure.  Money goes a long way in the criminal justice system. 

 

The OJ trial proved the system works. A rich black man can get off just like a rich white man.

 

A good way to address this would be to somehow take the effects of money out of the process somehow IMHO.

 

Another aspect may be related is when I watch those true crime shows on TV where they show the questioning, way more white people ask for a lawyer whereas most of the black people sit there and eventually confess which results in a harsher sentence.  I'm yelling at my TV, "ASK FOR A LAWYER AND STOP TALKING", but few do.  Purely anecdotal sure, but may play a role too.  Maybe a little education in the POC community on how to deal with police and the law if arrested would help?

People have biases.  Systems and institutions are governed by people with unconscious or conscious biases.   It doesn't mean these people are necessarily racist or sexist but they may act in a way that results in outcomes that are anything but fair.  

 

There are many examples of it.  In this day and age it takes a certain amount of resolve to neither be aware of or acknowledge the existence of these biases.  We can 

 

23 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Ok, so how do you solve that? If the cop is not white is this the same outcome? 
 

and aren’t the escalators defined by quantity? 

 

I think we solve it by arguing that it doesn't exist and isn't a problem until we're all blue in the face.

 

Interesting study done by Yale linked below that addresses your previous concerns.  The data is out there:

 

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/article/mandatory-sentencing-and-racial-disparity-assessing-the-role-of-prosecutors-and-the-effects-of-booker

 

Quote

The problem with the prevailing method is not merely an academic concern. In Part II of this Article, we highlight and discuss key findings of our analyses of charging and sentencing in federal criminal cases from 2007 to 2009.12 That research shows that after controlling for the arrest offense, criminal history, and other prior characteristics, there remains a black-white sentence-length gap of about 10%. But judges’ choices do not appear to be principally responsible. Instead, between half and the entire gap can be explained by the prosecutor’s initial charging decision—specifically, the decision to bring a charge carrying a “mandatory minimum.” After controlling for pre-charge case characteristics, prosecutors in our sample were nearly twice as likely to bring such a charge against black defendants.13 In other words, studies that focus only on the judicial sentencing decision exclude what appears to be the most important procedural source of disparity in sentences.

 

A summary with links to academic sources like the one above https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Bidens_basement said:

How much money in reparations will heal this country?

$10,000

$20,000

???????

I say $1,000,000 for every "victim".  Just to prove a point.  Some people will take advantage of the windfall by investing in themselves resulting in the ability to become independent and self-sufficient while setting up their decedents for a future where they'll be better positioned to succeed   Getting advanced degrees and starting businesses.  This would be a positive outcome for everyone.  

 

But I'm willing to bet that something like 90% of the recipients will be flat broke busted in 3 years because they blew all the cash on buying lots of toys and goodies while living an unsustainable lifestyle that can't be maintained without a commensurate cash flow.  So now what?  Maybe the lesson will be people are just victims of their own bad choices and behaviors.  And then its back to the public "wishing well" crying the blues that racism is holding them down in 2024 (now + my 3 year bet) when they were just plain stupid in blowing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

20 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

People have biases.  Systems and institutions are governed by people with unconscious or conscious biases.   It doesn't mean these people are necessarily racist or sexist but they may act in a way that results in outcomes that are anything but fair.  

 

There are many examples of it.  In this day and age it takes a certain amount of resolve to neither be aware of or acknowledge the existence of these biases.  We can 

 

 

I think we solve it by arguing that it doesn't exist and isn't a problem until we're all blue in the face.

 

Interesting study done by Yale linked below that addresses your previous concerns.  The data is out there:

 

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/article/mandatory-sentencing-and-racial-disparity-assessing-the-role-of-prosecutors-and-the-effects-of-booker

 

 

A summary with links to academic sources like the one above https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

good job, this is a much more scientific conclusive and useful study and reiterates the hole in the other one matters significantly and shows the the other study overstated the disparity by over 100% because they didn’t control for important variables.

 

it also points to prosecutors being the source of the issue, not judges or court who do the sentencing. 
 

Aren’t actionable findings so much better than flippant ones? 
 

With this data you can then go to the next level of questions. Why are prosecutors more likely to trump up charges racially, does it occur within a prosecutor or do the prosecutors who preside over courts the geographically see more black tried behave differently than court that see more whites tried. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

good job, this is a much more scientific conclusive and useful study and reiterates the hole in the other one matter and shows the the other study overstated the disparity by over 100% because they didn’t control for important variables.

 

it all points to prosecutors being the source of the issue, not judges or court who do the sentencing. 
 

Aren’t actionable finding so much better than flippant ones? 

You're welcome.  I am glad you learned something today despite your complete reluctance to do so.  

 

Who do you think prosecutors work for?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

You're welcome.  I am glad you learned something today despite your complete reluctance to do so.  

 

Who do you think prosecutors work for?

I imagine it varies. I’m glad you are learning something too.

 

now instead of hand waiving about system racist, you’ve got actionable data. Excellent job mr sort of woke but mildly offensive to Native American avatar. 

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I imagine it varies. I’m glad you are learning something too.

 

now instead of hand waiving about system racist, you’ve got actionable data. Excellent job mr sort of woke but mildly offensive to Native American avatar. 

Instead of sticking your head in the sand for 29 more years you are one step closer to accepting the world for the way it is and has been.  There are more such examples just waiting for you to discover.

 

I like how "woke" is defined as possessing knowledge of anything that runs counter to your worldview.  Someone must be a real activist to be open to new information and post it on this board.   Share anything that is inconvenient to this narrative that everyone gets treated the same in America and its inevitable that those without any form of rebuttal will go to their safe spaces and start yelling "woke", "virtue signaling", "CRT".  These terms are so misused that they have no meaning anymore.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Instead of sticking your head in the sand for 29 more years you are one step closer to accepting the world for the way it is and has been.  There are more such examples just waiting for you to discover.

 

I like how "woke" is defined as possessing knowledge of anything that runs counter to your worldview.  Someone must be a real activist to be open to new information and post it on this board.   Share anything that is inconvenient to this narrative that everyone gets treated the same in America and its inevitable that those without any form of rebuttal will go to their safe spaces and start yelling "woke", "virtue signaling", "CRT".  These terms are so misused that they have no meaning anymore.

You’re hardly one to lecture with that user name and Native American face painted white guy. That’s at minimum devoid of any virtue whatsoever. 
 

you know what else has no meaning. The word Racist… because if everything is nothing is. The difference between the useful idiots shouting racism from the sky and the actual critical thinkers is; stop blaming everything on ‘white man hate Black man’ and the 1800s or even 1900s and start really digging in and understanding these issues so they can be addressed. 
 

your politicians are not trying to solve anything. The sooner you wake up to that, the better. 

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

You’re hardly one to lecture with that user name and Native American face painted white guy. That’s at minimum devoid of any virtue whatsoever. 
 

you know what else has no meaning. The word Racist… because if everything is nothing is. The difference between the useful idiots shouting racism from the sky and the actual critical thinkers is; stop blaming everything on ‘white man hate Black man’ and the 1800s or even 1900s and start really digging in and understanding these issues so they can be addressed. 
 

your politicians are not trying to solve anything. The sooner you wake up to that, the better. 

Exactly!! I'm not f@#$ing woke!!  

 

I actually held and still hold many opinions on the topic of race relations in America that sound a lot like yours.  I have found that despite color blindness under the law there remains lots of room for inequity.  Biases in our systems and institutions doesn't mean everyone is a racist bent on screwing over POC but if the outcomes screw over one group of people while favoring another I don't think the screwed are going to take a lot of solace in the explanation "its not overt racism, just a collection of individuals acting on unconscious bias that means you need to go to jail a lot longer than other Americans!". 

 

I don't think our institutions (police, courts, legal system) are systemically racist or built on racism but as we have discussed, they can produce outcomes that are ostensibly consistent with something resembling systemic racism.  I am sure you are going to ask what we do about the situation and I don't have any answers.  But pretending there isn't a problem because our laws are color blind is definitely not it.  Acknowledging inequalities seems like a good start no matter how uncomfortable it may be.  Silencing the crackpots who claim conditions today are the same or worse than the 1940s also seems like good start.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Bidens_basement said:

How much money in reparations will heal this country?

$10,000

$20,000

???????

No clue. Thorne issue for sure. 

[Westside]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No clue. Thorne issue for sure. 

How much would inflation skyrocket if they gave out reparations?