Can Removing Highways Fix America's Cities? Starring Rochester, Buffalo, and Syracuse

[DCOrange]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html

 

I don't work in urban planning, but I find it to be super interesting and have particularly been interested in the talks around becoming less dependent on cars (particularly in urban areas). This article sort of falls into that category and heavily features Upstate NY.

[Just Jack]

With Syracuse, it's more because the bridges carrying the highway are nearing the end of their life span, and would have to be replaced.  The cheapest option is to remove them and instead make I-481 the new I-81 going around the city. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

They should have never built the 190 in Buffalo where it is.  Should have never been right on the water... Should have been further east.  They knew it then,  and they know it now the destruction it would bring... There were studies 60 years ago. 

 

Just nobody to advocate. During Boom Times people tend to sell each other out, till it comes crashing down...

 

Check this article out.  About Tulsa.  100 years since the massacre.  

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1268455

Edited May 29, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[Nextmanup]

I used to be good friends with a woman who worked in urban planning for the City of Buffalo.  We have sort of fallen out of contact over the years.

 

She is a very smart woman with a masters degree in UP from an Ivy League school.

 

She pointed out that the entire city of Buffalo had 3 planners on staff at that time (she was one of them) and then she pointed out that Portland, Oregon (a progressive place interested in improving itself constantly) had something like three hundred urban planners.

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

[Your Brown Eye]

It's going to take a hell of a lot more than filling in the Inner Loop to save Rochester.

[ExiledInIllinois]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I used to be good friends with a woman who worked in urban planning for the City of Buffalo.  We have sort of fallen out of contact over the years.

 

She is a very smart woman with a masters degree in UP from an Ivy League school.

 

She pointed out that the entire city of Buffalo had 3 planners on staff at that time (she was one of them) and then she pointed out that Portland, Oregon (a progressive place interested in improving itself constantly) had something like three hundred urban planners.

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

City Fathers were always elites in a labor town...

 

BFLo is the city that told Henry Ford to get *****-ed..  He went on to build his Highland Park & River Rouge plant in Detroit.   Buggy whips were up and coming in BFLo! 😕😞... Same old BFLo...

 

"Buffalo could have been Detroit," [Jim] Sandoro said of Buffalo's automotive past. "Henry Ford came here in the early 1900s for an auto show. Ford wanted to build a major assembly plant here, but the city fathers didn't want to give him any incentives, so he went elsewhere."

[Irv]

18 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

It's going to take a hell of a lot more than filling in the Inner Loop to save Rochester.

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Irv

[ExiledInIllinois]

32 minutes ago, Irv said:

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

Dam?  Anybody say dam! Dams is my biz!  😆...  Is this the dam?

 

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm7PR6_Court_Street_Dam_Genesee_River_Rochester_NY

 

We use sector gates here!  In fact the gates in Rochester, NY were built here!

 

I am not sure they can get rid of that dam so easily... Unless you like higher gas & electric prices? Hydro?  That's "green" energy, right?

 

"The Court Street Dam functions as a water-control structure for the lower Genesee River to regulate water levels in the nearby Erie Barge Canal during navigation season and to furnish water for the Rochester Gas and Electric hydroelectric plant at the west end of the dam."

 

Maybe they should just close down the Erie Canal... It's only for pleasure and recreational use... RG&E can come up with another plan?

 

Let me talk to legal counsel first, @BringBackFergy... Now about the Lower Falls.  How about bussing in some bears, Install a camera then we can watch them feed.  I GOT the perfect project manager for the job! Hey @Beerball , you up... Start working that resume...

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:49 AM, DCOrange said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html

 

I don't work in urban planning, but I find it to be super interesting and have particularly been interested in the talks around becoming less dependent on cars (particularly in urban areas). This article sort of falls into that category and heavily features Upstate NY.

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

Maybe for the small and intermediate markets.  But the big markets, hell no!

 

Yet... Concrete and asphalt = $$$$ BIG $$$$$

 

Still have to supply areas by truck.   Also,  weren't the first interstates created for national defense or safety... So they claimed under Eisenhower.   They can land, take off planes on them if needed too???

[DCOrange]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:11 AM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

I do feel like this past year of remote working for so many office workers has probably opened some eyes. For example, I work for a pretty huge consultancy company (not bragging or anything...I'm just a small cog in the machine lol). Their policy had always been that you could work from home one day a week, but after seeing that people's productivity remained the same over the past year or increased if anything, it sounds like they're going to give employees the option to work from home whenever they want (I assume there will be some exceptions for big quarterly meetings or something). They've also made it their policy to stop hiring people around major cities like mine to instead focus on spreading out to smaller/cheaper areas.

 

Most major cities will continue to be hubs for young people and rich people because they offer more things to do, but I do think there's potential for cities to start reimagining themselves a bit.

 

I know that for me personally, I really underestimated how nice it is to live in a walkable area; I pretty much only use my car if I'm going grocery shopping or driving home to visit family at this point. I would love to see cities make themselves more walkable/decrease car dependency.

[Irv]

On 5/30/2021 at 8:07 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Dam?  Anybody say dam! Dams is my biz!  😆...  Is this the dam?

 

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm7PR6_Court_Street_Dam_Genesee_River_Rochester_NY

 

We use sector gates here!  In fact the gates in Rochester, NY were built here!

 

I am not sure they can get rid of that dam so easily... Unless you like higher gas & electric prices? Hydro?  That's "green" energy, right?

 

"The Court Street Dam functions as a water-control structure for the lower Genesee River to regulate water levels in the nearby Erie Barge Canal during navigation season and to furnish water for the Rochester Gas and Electric hydroelectric plant at the west end of the dam."

 

Maybe they should just close down the Erie Canal... It's only for pleasure and recreational use... RG&E can come up with another plan?

 

Let me talk to legal counsel first, @BringBackFergy... Now about the Lower Falls.  How about bussing in some bears, Install a camera then we can watch them feed.  I GOT the perfect project manager for the job! Hey @Beerball , you up... Start working that resume...

 

 

Sorry you skipped fact checking when it was taught it in scool.  The Court Street Dam is a completely different dam.  And yes, it regulates the height of the canal.   I'm talking about the dam for RG&E Station 2.  Totally unecessary and only generates 8.5MW. 

 

Insert mic drop sound here.  

[Jauronimo]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:25 AM, Irv said:

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

The inner loop was barely used by the time discussions of filling it in happened.  It was convenient for me living downtown but I hardly ever saw another car on the Loop.

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Irv said:

 

Sorry you skipped fact checking when it was taught it in scool.  The Court Street Dam is a completely different dam.  And yes, it regulates the height of the canal.   I'm talking about the dam for RG&E Station 2.  Totally unecessary and only generates 8.5MW. 

 

Insert mic drop sound here.  

Thanks.  That's why I asked.  Thanks for pointing out that it's a different one.

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

3 hours ago, DCOrange said:

I do feel like this past year of remote working for so many office workers has probably opened some eyes. For example, I work for a pretty huge consultancy company (not bragging or anything...I'm just a small cog in the machine lol). Their policy had always been that you could work from home one day a week, but after seeing that people's productivity remained the same over the past year or increased if anything, it sounds like they're going to give employees the option to work from home whenever they want (I assume there will be some exceptions for big quarterly meetings or something). They've also made it their policy to stop hiring people around major cities like mine to instead focus on spreading out to smaller/cheaper areas.

 

Most major cities will continue to be hubs for young people and rich people because they offer more things to do, but I do think there's potential for cities to start reimagining themselves a bit.

 

I know that for me personally, I really underestimated how nice it is to live in a walkable area; I pretty much only use my car if I'm going grocery shopping or driving home to visit family at this point. I would love to see cities make themselves more walkable/decrease car dependency.

interesting. I do find that employers now have a much huger market of employees to choose from due to remote working. I also wonder if wages may be impacted. For instance, why should your company pay the same salary for someone in NYC as someone working in Detroit? In non-remote times, there would be obvious differences in market pay. 
 

but getting back to the main topic, in my mind, I can see the death of your downtown business districts, and maybe your average-sized cities have scaled back and much more mixed use downtowns now. Zoning could be changed significantly too. No more sky scrapers— much more mixed use, walkable areas. 

[Bill from NYC]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:14 PM, Nextmanup said:

 

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

How are things working out for her in Baltimore? 😮

[LeviF]

4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

How are things working out for her in Baltimore? 😮

 

People get shot in really efficient lanes of travel.

[Orlando Tim]

The issue I have with the article is that all of the cities being studied have lost at least 35% of their population from the peak. If they are discussing shrinking cities they likely have a point but not growing cities.

[Just Jack]

6 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 For instance, why should your company pay the same salary for someone in NYC as someone working in Detroit? 

 

I'm wondering about people that moved out of the cities to lower cost of living areas, yet still have the same salary.  Will companies decide to cut their pay since they don't need as much to live on?  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

15 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

I'm wondering about people that moved out of the cities to lower cost of living areas, yet still have the same salary.  Will companies decide to cut their pay since they don't need as much to live on?  

Agree. As an employer, why wouldn’t you do that? That is the trade off for living where you want. Will be interested to see how the job market bears this out. 

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, LeviF said:

 

People get shot in really efficient lanes of travel.

Yeah, I would say that Baltimre needs more help in urban planning, no?

[frostbitmic]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:25 AM, Irv said:

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

What would the mayors husband do for fun then ?

[LeviF]

3 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Agree. As an employer, why wouldn’t you do that? That is the trade off for living where you want. Will be interested to see how the job market bears this out. 

The feds already do this. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

33 minutes ago, LeviF said:

The feds already do this. 

Yup.  Locality pay.  We gotta raise when we switched from Rock Island to Chicago a year ago... Our Wage Grade (Not GS) is based on local industry.  Funny... We were first based out of Chicago before 1979. In 1979, industry had higher wages in Quad Cities and Peoria (Deere, Moline & Caterpillar, Peoria) than Chicago... So when they moved to Rock Island as HQ, we got a raise then too.  Today, last year opposite when we moved back to Chicago... Got another raise for locality...

Edited June 2, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[DCOrange]

22 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

interesting. I do find that employers now have a much huger market of employees to choose from due to remote working. I also wonder if wages may be impacted. For instance, why should your company pay the same salary for someone in NYC as someone working in Detroit? In non-remote times, there would be obvious differences in market pay. 
 

but getting back to the main topic, in my mind, I can see the death of your downtown business districts, and maybe your average-sized cities have scaled back and much more mixed use downtowns now. Zoning could be changed significantly too. No more sky scrapers— much more mixed use, walkable areas. 

Yeah, most of DC will likely be fine since the government insists on having everyone in DC still, but for example, there's a ton of offices across the bridge in Arlington where office workers like myself would generally be. These companies spend so much money to have their own buildings when it may not be fully necessary anymore. My partner's company for example had their lease expire during COVID and they're still deciding if they even want to rent an office building anymore. It'll be interesting to see how these sorts of decisions impact everything else. A much smaller anecdote, but there's a street by our offices in Arlington that's just lined with food trucks taking advantage of all the worker bees being in one area; I'm not sure what happens to those food trucks if there's no longer a centralized place for all the corporate offices.

[DCOrange]

19 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The issue I have with the article is that all of the cities being studied have lost at least 35% of their population from the peak. If they are discussing shrinking cities they likely have a point but not growing cities.

I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article or if I read it elsewhere, but one thing I learned recently that was pretty fascinating is that a lot of studies have shown that highways don't actually improve traffic congestion at all. So theoretically, the point would apply to cities that aren't shrinking as well. But also, the article mentions Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Boston, etc. and I don't think those areas are shrinking.

Edited June 2, 2021 by DCOrange

[Orlando Tim]

59 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article or if I read it elsewhere, but one thing I learned recently that was pretty fascinating is that a lot of studies have shown that highways don't actually improve traffic congestion at all. So theoretically, the point would apply to cities that aren't shrinking as well. But also, the article mentions Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Boston, etc. and I don't think those areas are shrinking.

That seems illogical unless people are going out of their way to get to the higher speed roads, which I guess is possible  In Orlando I rarely take I-4 because it is not the best way but if I need to go straight across town I always take the highways 

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

I don't remember if it was mentioned in the article or if I read it elsewhere, but one thing I learned recently that was pretty fascinating is that a lot of studies have shown that highways don't actually improve traffic congestion at all. So theoretically, the point would apply to cities that aren't shrinking as well. But also, the article mentions Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Boston, etc. and I don't think those areas are shrinking.

I think it's road design, topography too. The way the roads bend and curve.  Some are bruuutal.

 

Think like "slack" on a really long train.

 

They are addressing those concerns with better modern design technology tools and planning.

[DCOrange]

19 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

That seems illogical unless people are going out of their way to get to the higher speed roads, which I guess is possible  In Orlando I rarely take I-4 because it is not the best way but if I need to go straight across town I always take the highways 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/21/the-science-is-clear-more-highways-equals-more-traffic-why-are-dots-still-ignoring-it/#:~:text=They found that for every,lane capacity and traffic increases.

 

Just the first result that popped up but it mentions what I was talking about. Basically, studies have shown that more highways = more cars = same amount of traffic congestion (but with more cars). So you could argue it's a net positive if you're just trying to get more traffic into the city but it isn't really improving the flow of traffic the way urban planners used to think it would. They call this effect "induced demand".

[Seasons1992]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:07 PM, LeviF said:

 

People get shot in really efficient lanes of travel.

 

Dang, Levi.........😆

[Orlando Tim]

8 hours ago, DCOrange said:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/21/the-science-is-clear-more-highways-equals-more-traffic-why-are-dots-still-ignoring-it/#:~:text=They found that for every,lane capacity and traffic increases.

 

Just the first result that popped up but it mentions what I was talking about. Basically, studies have shown that more highways = more cars = same amount of traffic congestion (but with more cars). So you could argue it's a net positive if you're just trying to get more traffic into the city but it isn't really improving the flow of traffic the way urban planners used to think it would. They call this effect "induced demand".

I understand it now, but I think they are trying to make a cause and effect relationship, which while related are likely more related to simply larger groups of people in the area. This relationship is true in my area but we are expanding it based on people already here. The numbers are clearly correct but I think the impetus wrong. Thanks for showing me this though, I had never given it any thought 

[ExiledInIllinois]

15 hours ago, DCOrange said:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/21/the-science-is-clear-more-highways-equals-more-traffic-why-are-dots-still-ignoring-it/#:~:text=They found that for every,lane capacity and traffic increases.

 

Just the first result that popped up but it mentions what I was talking about. Basically, studies have shown that more highways = more cars = same amount of traffic congestion (but with more cars). So you could argue it's a net positive if you're just trying to get more traffic into the city but it isn't really improving the flow of traffic the way urban planners used to think it would. They call this effect "induced demand".

Make them really expensive toll roads. Cars will go elsewhere.   Like I-355 here.   I avoid that like the plague... BUT when I do decide to take a second mortgage out to pay my EZ/I-Pass account, it's the sweetest road on the planet!