Derek Chauvin Trial

[aristocrat]

 

[dpberr]

11 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

You can't really fault the officer for trying to prevent a stabbing like that in the heat of the moment. It seemed chaotic and happened so quick. 

 

It did make me wonder if police officers  should have some kind of less lethal rounds in the first 4 or 5 bullets in their clips. Something with definite stopping power, but not guaranteed to cause someone to bled out in minutes when they hit center mass. 

 

If they need to use deadly force they can keep shooting, but if they made a mistake it could save people's lives. 

 

 

There was a time when police officers carried considerably less lethal, less capacity firearms.  Two "things" happened, largely in the 1980s:  Police were more frequently outgunned by the criminals with the 1986 Miami Dade event being one of the more noteworthy events.  Two, police were encountering more people high on drugs that could endure multiple shots from .38 caliber and even 9mm handguns and were still able to move and do what they wanted to do.  You saw a big push in law enforcement circles to use 10mm for a while, many brought back .45 caliber handguns as service weapons, and 9mm handguns capable of firing higher grain rounds than your usual 115gr rounds.  

 

I think police need to carry firearms that posses the potential to end violent situations.  For example, I'd want the police to have a lethal force option to take on an active shooter or a hostage situation.   

 

I think the issue is that the non-lethal gadgets they have aren't powerful enough and the cops don't trust them when it counts.  Some people can take Taser and spray and they can keep doing what they are doing.  The Columbus police officer could have used the Taser and the woman with the knife could have gotten a couple stabs off before she could be stopped.

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

53 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

Precisely.  Black on black crime is so commonplace now, it's not news anymore.  The thing that should scare everyone is now they don't give a ***** about the reason why a cop if forced to kill a black person.

 

37 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

Yeah, "unilateral" accountability.

[B-Man]

 

[Motorin']

16 minutes ago, dpberr said:

There was a time when police officers carried considerably less lethal, less capacity firearms.  Two "things" happened, largely in the 1980s:  Police were more frequently outgunned by the criminals with the 1986 Miami Dade event being one of the more noteworthy events.  Two, police were encountering more people high on drugs that could endure multiple shots from .38 caliber and even 9mm handguns and were still able to move and do what they wanted to do.  You saw a big push in law enforcement circles to use 10mm for a while, many brought back .45 caliber handguns as service weapons, and 9mm handguns capable of firing higher grain rounds than your usual 115gr rounds.  

 

I think police need to carry firearms that posses the potential to end violent situations.  For example, I'd want the police to have a lethal force option to take on an active shooter or a hostage situation.   

 

I think the issue is that the non-lethal gadgets they have aren't powerful enough and the cops don't trust them when it counts.  Some people can take Taser and spray and they can keep doing what they are doing.  The Columbus police officer could have used the Taser and the woman with the knife could have gotten a couple stabs off before she could be stopped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hear that. Most cops are carrying 9mm handguns today with 15 round clips. Technology has advanced since the 80's. There are less lethal 9mm rounds that police could put in the first 3-5 rounds. It would take 1 second to get off those rounds and could give officers a check stop to ask themselves, is this threat stopped? Did I make a mistake?  It could potentially save hundreds of lives per year. 

 

 

[wnyguy]

21 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I hear that. Most cops are carrying 9mm handguns today with 15 round clips. Technology has advanced since the 80's. There are less lethal 9mm rounds that police could put in the first 3-5 rounds. It would take 1 second to get off those rounds and could give officers a check stop to ask themselves, is this threat stopped? Did I make a mistake?  It could potentially save hundreds of lives per year. 

 

 

And ask themselves if it is mostly peaceful knife fight, amirite.

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, wnyguy said:

It surely is not a hoax just the simple truth.

Cool story.  Prove it. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

31 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I hear that. Most cops are carrying 9mm handguns today with 15 round clips. Technology has advanced since the 80's. There are less lethal 9mm rounds that police could put in the first 3-5 rounds. It would take 1 second to get off those rounds and could give officers a check stop to ask themselves, is this threat stopped? Did I make a mistake?  It could potentially save hundreds of lives per year. 

 

 

That’s an interesting idea. Maybe even just the first round. 

[wnyguy]

3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Cool story.  Prove it. 

It's okay, continue to live in your fantasy.

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, Backintheday544 said:

You didn’t make any point.

 

The right is not unfettered on company time. That is true. Employers can do things like say you can’t promote a product on company time or you can’t protest on company time.

 

The absence of a company doing such means the company is allowing an unfettered right to do so on company time. The NFL knew of protests. The NFL gave their permission. Therefore the players were granted an unfettered right to protest by kneeling on company time.

 

Protests have consequences. If it’s right wing nuts not watching the NFL because they don’t like what occurs before the game, I’m sure the NFL took that into account and found any loss of revenue didn’t matter.

 

To the point that it’s entertainment, if you made a pie graph if entertaining things you see in an NFL football game, I’d guess a sliver of it is the national anthems. Hell most people are in the bathroom or in line for food when it’s occurring.

 

The fact remains the right was against players taking a knee during the anthem. They didn’t like that sign of protest. They don’t like black athletes voicing their opinion.

 

let’s look at Fox News for a great example:

 

Black athletes:

“It's always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid $100 million a year to bounce a ball," Ingraham said. "Oh, and LeBron and Kevin, you're great players, but no one voted for you. Millions elected Trump to be their coach. So keep the political commentary to yourself, or as someone once said, 'Shut up and dribble.'"

 

White:

Now let's fast forward to Wednesday's show and see what she had to say about Brees, who gets paid millions of dollars to throw a ball...

"Well, he's allowed to have his view about what kneeling and the flag means to him. I mean, he's a person," Ingraham said. "He has some worth, I would imagine. I mean, this is beyond football, though. This is totalitarian conduct. This is Stalinist. And by the way, on the streets of New Orleans — we're looking at live pictures — they're shouting, 'Eff Drew Brees.'

Brees didn’t protest, he just let his opinion about said protest be known via a tweet or something. It was a response, because the left calls you out if you don’t agree with their lie. You fail to see that, because you’re indoctrinated. I don’t remember Brees “ protesting” during a football game. Besides, he’s a complete POS because he caved to the pressure. The anthem itself is most certainly not entertainment. Remember , they say “please rise while we honor America...”. As I also pointed out, most non libs were fine with the idea of keeping the players inside during the anthem ( as was done for many decades) or to simply eliminate it from being played before games. That idea was also panned by the left. You seem to think that everyone must be subjected to the “ protest” and no one can have an opinion contrary to the protest. The issue is that this “ protest” along with BLM riots etc is pushing a lie, a gross exaggeration of facts, and advancing a radical agenda that is not supported by the data. It’s being endorsed by spineless corporations and cheered on by liberal owned leftist msm. I see LeBron is “ so tired “ of seeing black people killed by law enforcement. He should watch video of white people being shot and he’ll feel much better. Trouble is, the media doesn’t show these. Maybe he doesn’t know that hundreds more white folks are shot by Police every year. His tweets show an astounding level of ignorance. He should watch Fox News, because the showed the dash cam footage of a deputy who was gunned down by a driver that he pulled over during a traffic stop. That’s the danger faced by law enforcement every day. 

[Boatdrinks]

9 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That’s an interesting idea. Maybe even just the first round. 

Sure, take away their advantage over the criminals. A bunch more dead Cops per year can really help to ,you know balance things out. Couple that with Chris Cuomo’s idea and have them shoot a bunch of “ white kids” per year and we’ll be close to achieving equity! Policing reimagined! 

25 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

And ask themselves if it is mostly peaceful knife fight, amirite.

You see , they need to let kids be kids! They could have let an OJ style knife killing just play out as it should. We don’t need Cops saving anyone from a good old fashioned knife fight! 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Precisely.  Black on black crime is so commonplace now, it's not news anymore.  The thing that should scare everyone is now they don't give a ***** about the reason why a cop if forced to kill a black person.

 

 

Yeah, "unilateral" accountability.

Yes! The numbers clearly show that b on b crime is far outpacing any other. It has been “ normalized” and that’s scary. The biggest threat to a young man of color is not a cop, but other young men that look just like him. It’s a sad truth you point out , and it’s ignored or even celebrated by the left. Thousands upon thousands of murders per year, yet the lefts outrage and hatred of America and  Caucasians in general is so great, they focus on a few hundred Police involved shootings per year across the entire nation! 

[Motorin']

32 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

And ask themselves if it is mostly peaceful knife fight, amirite.

 

Police shoot and kill over 500 unarmed people per year. Most of them bleed out because of the strength of the ammo. 

 

I'd like to ask the officer who shot 13 year old Adam Toldeo once in the chest if he wished his first round didn't kill him on impact. 

[wnyguy]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Police shoot and kill over 500 unarmed people per year. Most of them bleed out because of the strength of the ammo. 

 

I'd like to ask the officer who shot 13 year old Adam Toldeo once in the chest if he wished his first round didn't kill him on impact. 

I am sure that almost all police officers wish they did not have to use deadly force and are psychologically affected when they do.

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

Of course it is! That girl was just expressing her individuality, her reality. Who cares if another girl was about to take a knife wound to a vital organ or have her throat cut! Now if he did nothing or took some action but the other girl was stabbed or even killed, it would clearly have been systemic racism and a Caucasian girl would have been saved. 

9 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Police shoot and kill over 500 unarmed people per year. Most of them bleed out because of the strength of the ammo. 

 

I'd like to ask the officer who shot 13 year old Adam Toldeo once in the chest if he wished his first round didn't kill him on impact. 

The officer probably does. Most Cops don’t want to use their service weapon. Sadly, teens with weapons or weapon charges against them are common these days. Putting more Cops in danger by lessening their advantage over criminals who will try to kill them in order to escape isn’t an answer here. Edit: I’m not sure of the validity of your over 500 unarmed number, and question the definition of “ unarmed” but no matter. I know the number of unarmed poc last year was less than 20. It just doesn’t happen that often to anyone ( I mean 500 in a nation of 300 plus million ? Not worth worrying about )  but it’s sensationalized by the media and Police hate groups. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Boatdrinks

[Numark3]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

I agree with this.  I think it is a strong argument for a mistrial.  There is a zero percent chance it gets reversed 

[Motorin']

11 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The officer probably does. Most Cops don’t want to use their service weapon. Sadly, teens with weapons or weapon charges against them are common these days. Putting more Cops in danger by lessening their advantage over criminals who will try to kill them in order to escape isn’t an answer here. 

 

Less than 50 officers were killed in the line of duty in 2019 while over 500 unarmed US citizens were shot dead by police. 

 

The advantage officers have on most armed people is their training, which allows them to hit their target. I'm not suggesting police be forced to use BB guns, but less lethal first round(s) that could save lives. 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Motorin'

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Less than 50 officers were killed in the line of duty in 2019 while over 500 unarmed US citizens were shot dead by police. 

 

The advantage officers have on most armed people is their training, which allows them to hit their target. I'm not suggesting police by forced to use BB guns, but a less lethal first round(s) that could save lives. 

 

 

 

Still have to research that number, as I seriously doubt half of all shot were unarmed. On to the other point.  So the answer is we need to get that number of dead cops higher ?  got it. Equity ! 

[Motorin']

12 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Of course it is! That girl was just expressing her individuality, her reality. Who cares if another girl was about to take a knife wound to a vital organ or have her throat cut! Now if he did nothing or took some action but the other girl was stabbed or even killed, it would clearly have been systemic racism and a Caucasian girl would have been saved. 

The officer probably does. Most Cops don’t want to use their service weapon. Sadly, teens with weapons or weapon charges against them are common these days. Putting more Cops in danger by lessening their advantage over criminals who will try to kill them in order to escape isn’t an answer here. Edit: I’m not sure of the validity of your over 500 unarmed number, and question the definition of “ unarmed” but no matter. I know the number of unarmed poc last year was less than 20. It just doesn’t happen that often to anyone ( I mean 500 in a nation of 300 plus million ? Not worth worrying about )  but it’s sensationalized by the media and Police hate groups. 

 

500 killings of unarmed people by 750,000 law enforcement officers is not worth worrying about? That's around how many people are sadly killed in Chicago each year, a metro area with nearly 10 million people. 

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Still have to research that number, as I seriously doubt half of all shot were unarmed. On to the other point.  So the answer is we need to get that number of dead cops higher ?  got it. Equity ! 

 

You are assuming that the solution I am advocating would lead to more officer deaths, with no reasoning to back it up. 

 

[Chef Jim]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So you’re of the opinion that police officers don’t get regular training? You know this, how? And you’re of the opinion that the Police Academy needs to be either replaced or supplemented by two years of community college so they can brush up on their pre-algebra? 

 

I have an associates degree in Culinary Arts.  Maybe the cops can bake everyone a cake. Everybody likes cake right.  Crisis averted.  

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Don’t be disingenuous.  You know he’s not talking about them taking math classes.  As a general rule for any job more training is better than less.  

 

What degree would be a prerequisite then?  What and how will that degree help them make the right decision is a split second crisis?  

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

500 killings of unarmed people by 750,000 law enforcement officers is not worth worrying about? That's around how many people are sadly killed in Chicago each year, a metro area with nearly 10 million people. 

That was my point that I used as an example in another post. The entire number of police shootings in a given year by ALL cops across the land isn’t far off from actual intentional murders in a single American City! Not worth worrying about. We have a violent crime problem in America, not a Cop problem. You’ve got a 1 in 4 million chance of being killed by a shark. How much time do you spend worrying about that? Perspective is a real thing. 

[Motorin']

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

That was my point that I used as an example in another post. The entire number of police shootings in a given year by ALL cops across the land isn’t far off from actual intentional murders in a single American City! Not worth worrying about. We have a violent crime problem in America, not a Cop problem. You’ve got a 1 in 4 million chance of being killed by a shark. How much time do you spend worrying about that? Perspective is a real thing. 

 

I thought the number of murders in Chicago were enough to have the Feds come in and take over bc it is like living in a 3rd world country? Now it's the equivalent of worrying about being killed by a shark. Cool perspective shift. 

[Melon]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

That was my point that I used as an example in another post. The entire number of police shootings in a given year by ALL cops across the land isn’t far off from actual intentional murders in a single American City! Not worth worrying about. We have a violent crime problem in America, not a Cop problem. You’ve got a 1 in 4 million chance of being killed by a shark. How much time do you spend worrying about that? Perspective is a real thing. 

 

Perspective is a real thing - and renders your example dumb.

 

If I'm a surfer my chances of getting bit by a shark are a bit different than if I'm sitting on my ass in Buffalo.

 

Surfers worry a ton about sharks attacking them. Dudes sitting at Cole's on a Friday night don't.

 

Blacks worry a ton about being shot by cops. You don't. 

 

1 minute ago, Motorin' said:

 

I thought the number of murders in Chicago were enough to have the Feds come in and take over bc it is like living in a 3rd world country? Now it's the equivalent of worrying about being killed by a shark. Cool perspective shift. 

 

They care so much about Chicago - I wonder what community advocacy groups in Chicago they support?

[Chef Jim]

47 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Police shoot and kill over 500 unarmed people per year. Most of them bleed out because of the strength of the ammo. 

 

 

Strength of the ammo?  What does this mean?  

[Boatdrinks]

11 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I thought the number of murders in Chicago were enough to have the Feds come in and take over bc it is like living in a 3rd world country? Now it's the equivalent of worrying about being killed by a shark. Cool perspective shift. 

I’m talking about for those of us in the rest of the country, lol. In Chicago itself ? Yes it’s a huge problem. All across the land vs one City. Need the macro view when talking about stats across the country such as overall police shootings. If there were a thousand police involved shootings a year in Chicago, yeah that’s a problem. 

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Strength of the ammo?  What does this mean?  

 

Lots of cops are using hallow point bullets. Hits center mass are killing people nearly instantaneously. 

[Chef Jim]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Lots of cops are using hallow point bullets. Hits center mass are killing people nearly instantaneously. 

 

I know how hollow points work.  What would you prefer?  

[Melon]

 

[Boatdrinks]

27 minutes ago, Melon said:

 

Perspective is a real thing - and renders your example dumb.

 

If I'm a surfer my chances of getting bit by a shark are a bit different than if I'm sitting on my ass in Buffalo.

 

Surfers worry a ton about sharks attacking them. Dudes sitting at Cole's on a Friday night don't.

 

Blacks worry a ton about being shot by cops. You don't. 

 

 

They care so much about Chicago - I wonder what community advocacy groups in Chicago they support?

They need to check the numbers. They shouldn’t worry so much about Cops. They’re far more likely to be killed by someone who looks like them. Maybe even someone they know.  Shark attacks are more common in some waters than others. High surf definitely ups the risk. Still , tons of people go in the ocean in FLA, CAL, etc. the odds are still very low. Movies like Jaws stick in people’s minds. So does wildly sensationalized media coverage of some police involved shootings. It’s a perfect example. A dim bulb won’t figure it out though. 

5 minutes ago, Melon said:

 

So what ? They all had a degree of negligence. 

 

 

Yes, there are so many protests in Chicago over violent crime there. People are outraged and demanding justice for the hundreds upon hundreds of senseless murders happening in their community. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Boatdrinks

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I know how hollow points work.  What would you prefer?  

 

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination. A quick Google search found 9mm handgun ammo at various strengths. 

 

My thought on this subject is that there may be a good ballance between stopping power and lethality for police to use in the first few round of their clip that can neutralize someone, while making it more likely they survive in the event of mistakes.

 

But have the round become more lethal after the first x number of shots in the event that maximum force is required. 

 

Maybe the exact technology with the right balance has yet to be developed, but it seems like a potential for reducing deaths in unarmed situations, while allowing the officer to administer true lethal force within milliseconds if needed. 

 

[Melon]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

They’re far more likely to be killed by someone who looks like them. 

 

So is every single demographic. It doesn't mean police brutality is not a problem.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Melon said:

 

So is every single demographic. It doesn't mean police brutality is not a problem.

You’re wrong. Same race vs same race violence is pretty even across ethnic groups, except for one. Heck, even different race vs different race violence is pretty even. Brush up on your facts and don’t believe the force fed media drivel. 

[Melon]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Same race vs same race violence is pretty even across ethnic groups, except for one. 

 

Care to show your data or say what group you're referring to?

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination. A quick Google search found 9mm handgun ammo at various strengths. 

 

My thought on this subject is that there may be a good ballance between stopping power and lethality for police to use in the first few round of their clip that can neutralize someone, while making it more likely they survive in the event of mistakes.

 

But have the round become more lethal after the first x number of shots in the event that maximum force is required. 

 

Maybe the exact technology with the right balance has yet to be developed, but it seems like a potential for reducing deaths in unarmed situations, while allowing the officer to administer true lethal force within milliseconds if needed. 

 

 

It's not the weapons the officers have to use.  It's all about how to deescalate a situation which is really really hard.  There are times when the first shot NEEDS to be lethal.  But the challenge is determining in a split second if lethal force is required or not.  For instance tasers.  If a suspect has a handgun and the officer pulls their taser. The suspect pulls his weapon.  The officer is now out gunned (taser in hand firearm likely still holstered) and in big trouble.  As long as their are bad guys out there that are willing to fight to the death, and the officers do not know if the person they are facing has such a person cops will use lethal force.

 

As an aside we bought our first weapons when we lived in Oakland. We took lessons at a range where the OPD would train. The Range Master said they were some of the worst shots.  I guess when you're trained to unload your clip on a suspect accuracy is not important.  

[Melon]

4 minutes ago, Melon said:

 

Care to show your data or say what group you're referring to?

 

Here's the data I found.

 

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf

 

57% of crimes involving white victims were committed by white perpetrators. 15% were committed by blacks, and 11% by Hispanics.

 

63% of the crimes involving black victims were committed by black perpetrators. 11% percent were committed by whites, and 6.6% by Hispanics.

[Chef Jim]

24 minutes ago, Melon said:

 

Here's the data I found.

 

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf

 

57% of crimes involving white victims were committed by white perpetrators. 15% were committed by blacks, and 11% by Hispanics.

 

63% of the crimes involving black victims were committed by black perpetrators. 11% percent were committed by whites, and 6.6% by Hispanics.

I think there is a lot of research that says a high percentage of murders are committed by someone the victim knows.  Now I’m not saying that people do not accociate with people outside their race but it would explain a lot of these numbers. 

[Unforgiven]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

That was my point that I used as an example in another post. The entire number of police shootings in a given year by ALL cops across the land isn’t far off from actual intentional murders in a single American City! Not worth worrying about. We have a violent crime problem in America, not a Cop problem. You’ve got a 1 in 4 million chance of being killed by a shark. How much time do you spend worrying about that? Perspective is a real thing. 

They should do a study on how many Americans are shot by police who are not in the midst of

committing a crime and/or being on drugs...my guess is right around 0

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Motorin' said:

Police shoot and kill over 500 unarmed people per year. Most of them bleed out because of the strength of the ammo. 

 

I'd like to ask the officer who shot 13 year old Adam Toldeo once in the chest if he wished his first round didn't kill him on impact. 

 

You'll need to provide evidence of this claim.

 

Edit: I believe you're overstating it by a factor of 10.  I remember the number being about 50, with 9 of them being blacks, 19 being white and the rest others.  I do recall that Asians were disproportionately low, so I guess the cops are systemically non-racist against them.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Doc

[Tiberius]

On 4/20/2021 at 6:24 PM, RiotAct said:

not surprised Pelosi said that at all.  She’s not well and has no business being in a position of power any more.

So, did Jesus really die for our sins, or did the Roman's simply kill him to shut him up? 

[Melon]

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

I think there is a lot of research that says a high percentage of murders are committed by someone the victim knows.  Now I’m not saying that people do not accociate with people outside their race but it would explain a lot of these numbers. 

 

That is also true.

 

Still curious about the data and group @Boatdrinks is referring to.