"Some in the league think Josh Allen has caught Patrick Mahomes", per PFT

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I don't think it should so easily be discounted. Those two weapons were both first team all-pro's before Mahomes ever threw a pass to either one. Mahomes put the Chiefs team over the top. No question. But both Kelce and Hill had put themselves individually over the top before Mahomes became the starter. That's really the whole point of the debate. Allen has not had a weapon like Hill or Kelce until this season. Now he has one in Diggs and boom MVP caliber season from Allen. Mahomes has had two his entire career.

 

Projecting both players careers into the future, it's possible but very unlikely Mahomes will ever play with more talent then he has had these last three years.  It's more conceivable that Allen could play with more talent.  What is unclear at this time is if that talent gap closes or even flip flops will the W/L and statistical outcomes change? 

 

 

Hill's ascension to a first team all-pro WR happened when he got Mahomes as his QB in 2018.    

 

As @NewEra stated Hill was the first team all-pro return man in 2016.     For perspective, Andre Roberts was first team all-pro return man in 2018.  

 

Kelce was first team all-pro but that was relative.........Mahomes has basically increased his production by about 30% which is crazy considering he was already well into his prime and outstanding.

 

That's not to detract from those players but my point stands..........they were not nearly as lethal with "only" a pro bowl QB in Alex Smith..........in fact, that's why they went out and paid $16M per year to get Sammy Watkins.........they didn't feel they were explosive enough.    The 2017 Bills were able to shut them down and that was when they had the league's leading rusher as well.   Mahomes is a HUGE difference maker.

 

As for whether either will have greater weapons........who knows?    Allen's receivers caught more passes than any NFL team since 1995.   Once he gets paid they won't  likely be able to have a $30M three man WR corps anymore like they do now.    Mahomes has one more year before his cap # comes up and Allen has two.    At that point they both might have to make due with a little less.

 

[Beast]

*****, I'm just thrilled this is even being debated.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Beast

[TheFunPolice]

22 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I was born in 74 so I can’t really comment about Russell too much.  I gained the majority of pre-me NBA knowledge from my father, who grew up a Celtic fan, ugh.  We had talked about who the nba GOAT was on more than a few occasions.  Whenever Russell was brought up, the one thing I always remember him talking about was the lack of competition Russell faced as well as the amount of teams in the league.  During his title run, I believe there was between 8 and 16 teams in the league.  While he beat west and Baylor in the finals 7 times, the talent level in the Celtics was FAR superior to the talent on the lakers minus their 2 stars.  While I know my hoops, I don’t claim to be an expert, so I’m sure others may have differing opinions on that.
 

In all of the conversations we had about the nbas goat since Jordan had retired, he always said he was the best basketball player he’d ever seen, followed by Kareem and Oscar.

 

it doesn’t always have to be about having the most titles.  Once you have enough to be in the discussion, it’s what your eyes tell you.  
 

my eyes tell me, that if Mahomes gets 4-5 Lombardi’s, he’ll most likely be the GOAT until the next one comes along.  He can do everything Brady does and then a lot more. He just needs the hardware to get into the conversation imo

 

Good points, and I think it will happen with Mahomes. That team is not going to stop winning any time soon.

 

Ditto with Andy Reid. Now he has his QB. People like to say "what's his record against Belichick, head to head?" as if Reid wasn't going in with a huge disadvantage at QB for most of those games. Belichick had Brady the entire time, while Reid had McNabb, Kevin Kolb, and Alex Smith at QB. And he still got over on NE and Brady/BB a few times, even blowing them out in NE.

 

Reid has won the vast majority of his games as HC without Mahomes. Belichick had Brady for most of his wins. 

 

Now Reid has his QB, and it lines up with him having learned and improved as a HC all these years. It's perfect timing. 

 

We're going to look back in 7-8 years and Reid is going to be over 300 wins, good enough for at LEAST top 4 all-time in HC wins and maybe even ahead of Belichick by then. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Hill's ascension to a first team all-pro WR happened when he got Mahomes as his QB in 2018.    

 

As @NewEra stated Hill was the first team all-pro return man in 2016.     For perspective, Andre Roberts was first team all-pro return man in 2018.  

 

Kelce was first team all-pro but that was relative.........Mahomes has basically increased his production by about 30% which is crazy considering he was already well into his prime and outstanding.

 

 

 

 

Nobody is denying Mahomes doesn't get the best out of these players. The point though is Mahomes HAS these players. Allen didn't have a single one until this year. Now he has one, Mahomes has had two for his entire career. 

 

Roberts also has 7 receptions for about 60 yards and 0TD's in two years with the Bills. Not exactly Hill numbers with Alex Smith. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Nobody is denying Mahomes doesn't get the best out of these players. The point though is Mahomes HAS these players. Allen didn't have a single one until this year. Now he has one, Mahomes has had two for his entire career. 

 

Roberts also has 7 receptions for about 60 yards and 0TD's in two years with the Bills. Not exactly Hill numbers with Alex Smith. 

 

 

 

No question Beane dropped the ball when he passed on playmakers AJ Brown and DK Metcalf in round 2 of 2019.     They NEEDED that player for Josh Allen in 2019..........not another developmental offensive guard with right tackle flexibility in Cody Ford.    That error cost them two All Pro type talents.......Wyatt Teller's roster spot and one of those WR's.

 

But comparing the processing ability and accuracy of 2019 Josh Allen to 2020 is way off base.    Allen improved greatly.   In 2019 he left hundreds of yards on the table to wide open receivers deep.   That wasn't a lack of receiving talent issue.   This year he was hitting a good % of those passes while greatly improving his accuracy and ball placement on short to intermediate throws.

 

He would have been better in 2019 with a stud WR to go with his excellent targets in Beasley and Brown.........but he wasn't at a stage of his game where he was going to elevate the game of guys like Hill or Kelce by 30%+ like Mahomes did INSTANTLY as a first time starter in KC. 

 

Allen is a work in progress..........Mahomes was ready to be the league's QB1 as soon as he was given the opporunity.    For reference go check his early season stats in 2018 where he was just putting up pinball machine numbers right out of the gate.

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

So you think he wouldn't have developed into an all-pro WR without Mahomes? He had a great second year. For a receiver who was playing RB at Oklahoma State just a few years prior. 

 

Sorry if I mislead you. The guy was a stud with all-pro talent before Mahomes threw passes to him. That's the point I a making.

I think the term everyone is using nowadays is “unlocked”.  Mahomes unlocked Hill. He was a very promising player that had elite athleticism.  He was very good with Alex smith....as was the team.  Enter Mahomes and they’ve been the best team in football all 3 years imo, aside from Dee Fords offside.  
 

I guess I really don’t understand your point. Are you trying to say that Josh Allen would’ve been as good as Mahomes was in  his first 2 years if he had Hill and Kelce?  
 

Allens mechanics have completely changed in his 3 years as starter while Mahomes’ have stayed the same.  Diggs’ arrival has clearly helped Allen become a better QB and aided in his jump to the statistically elite, but 17s hard work, dedication to his throwing motion and lower body technique has made the biggest difference in his improvement imo.  Allen would have been better with hill and Kelce in his first couple years, but nowhere near what Mahomes was.  Pretty obvious by watching his accuracy and decision making. 

[RochesterLifer]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No question Beane dropped the ball when he passed on playmakers AJ Brown and DK Metcalf in round 2 of 2019.     They NEEDED that player for Josh Allen in 2019..........not another developmental offensive guard with right tackle flexibility in Cody Ford.    That error cost them two All Pro type talents.......Wyatt Teller's roster spot and one of those WR's.

 

But comparing the processing ability and accuracy of 2019 Josh Allen to 2020 is way off base.    Allen improved greatly.   In 2019 he left hundreds of yards on the table to wide open receivers deep.   That wasn't a lack of receiving talent issue.   This year he was hitting a good % of those passes while greatly improving his accuracy and ball placement on short to intermediate throws.

 

He would have been better in 2019 with a stud WR to go with his excellent targets in Beasley and Brown.........but he wasn't at a stage of his game where he was going to elevate the game of guys like Hill or Kelce by 30%+ like Mahomes did INSTANTLY as a first time starter in KC. 

 

Allen is a work in progress..........Mahomes was ready to be the league's QB1 as soon as he was given the opporunity.    For reference go check his early season stats in 2018 where he was just putting up pinball machine numbers right out of the gate.

I have to raise my hand with a point of order regarding the bolded. Mahomes received a master's degree in quarterbacking his first year, sitting and benefitting from the tutelage of Reid, his offensive staff and a Pro Bowl QB. I recognize your words are "as soon as he was even the opportunity", but even with that phrase, perspective is (purposely?) lost. As a rookie, Josh had the pleasure of throwing to Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones.

- Josh Allen is hitting a home run starting with two strikes against him.

- Patrick Mahomes is hitting a home run while having started on second base.

While Mahomes won the battle this year (and I tip my cap), I believe the two QBs are very comparable.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

I have to raise my hand with a point of order regarding the bolded. Mahomes received a master's degree in quarterbacking his first year, sitting and benefitting from the tutelage of Reid, his offensive staff and a Pro Bowl QB. I recognize your words are "as soon as he was even the opportunity", but even with that phrase, perspective is (purposely?) lost. As a rookie, Josh had the pleasure of throwing to Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones.

- Josh Allen is hitting a home run starting with two strikes against him.

- Patrick Mahomes is hitting a home run while having started on second base.

While Mahomes won the battle this year (and I tip my cap), I believe the two QBs are very comparable.

No matter what year you compare Mahomes to Allen, Mahomes was basically head and shoulders better except when you compare 2020.

 

Mahomes had 15 TD's in his first 4 games of 2018.  Those were his second through fifth starts in his career.

 

Allen never had a comparable stretch until 2020.

 

They were different QB's out of the gate.  Allen is now closing the gap.  That's okay.

[billspro]

On 1/22/2021 at 8:52 AM, thenorthremembers said:

A lot of this stuff is hyperbole to try and fill time.   To "catch" Mahomes, Josh is going to have to show this wasnt a one year wonder type of thing.  He will also need a ring and an MVP, which is easier said than done.   Beat the Chiefs this weekend and you can start to talk about it, but before then I dont think this should even be a discussion.

It’s going to be tough to do those things with the talent gap. The Chiefs have a much better team right now

[Success]

1 minute ago, billspro said:

It’s going to be tough to do those things with the talent gap. The Chiefs have a much better team right now

Much better?

 

I'd disagree w/ that characterization. They're better and further ahead, but I'm more in line w/ how one of the Chiefs described it before the AFCCG - we're basically where they were 2 years ago.

 

They have more experience now, and are somewhat better & more balanced, but it's not a big gap.  We can catch them next season w/ the right moves; we're not years away.

 

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Success said:

Much better?

 

I'd disagree w/ that characterization. They're better and further ahead, but I'm more in line w/ how one of the Chiefs described it before the AFCCG - we're basically where they were 2 years ago.

 

They have more experience now, and are somewhat better & more balanced, but it's not a big gap.  We can catch them next season w/ the right moves; we're not years away.

 

Talent-wise and blue chip-wise, I simply do not agree.

 

QB Mahomes - Allen - edge to Mahomes

Pass catcher - Hill/Kelce - Diggs/Beasley - edge to Hill/Kelce

Pass rusher - Jones/Ford - Oliver/Hughes - edge to Jones/Ford

OT - Fisher/Schwartz - Dawkins/Williams - you may be able to argue push here

DB - Fuller/Murray/Parker - White/Poyer/Hyde - I would argue edge to our guys.

 

Of all of those players, KC has lost Fuller, Murray, Parker, Ford and added Frank Clark in the 2 years.

 

We will possibly lose Hughes, Williams, and perhaps Hyde 2 years from now.

 

We will need to hit big on some acquisitions to close the gap.

[Success]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Talent-wise and blue chip-wise, I simply do not agree.

 

QB Mahomes - Allen - edge to Mahomes

Pass catcher - Hill/Kelce - Diggs/Beasley - edge to Hill/Kelce

Pass rusher - Jones/Ford - Oliver/Hughes - edge to Jones/Ford

OT - Fisher/Schwartz - Dawkins/Williams - you may be able to argue push here

DB - Fuller/Murray/Parker - White/Poyer/Hyde - I would argue edge to our guys.

 

Of all of those players, KC has lost Fuller, Murray, Parker, Ford and added Frank Clark in the 2 years.

 

We will possibly lose Hughes, Williams, and perhaps Hyde 2 years from now.

 

We will need to hit big on some acquisitions to close the gap.

 

The only "big" gap I see there is at pass rusher. We're fairly anemic there - clearly, that has to be our top priority in the offseason, and the D-line in general.

 

The differences at QB and pass catcher are negligible, imo.  I'll grant a slight edge to what KC has, but it's not any kind of overall difference-maker.   Mahomes was better than Allen in the AFCCG because of the gap at pass rush - Allen had pressure all game, Mahomes didn't.  I think the QB's themselves are very close, and still wouldn't trade Allen for Mahomes straight-up.

 

Give me Diggs over Hill.  Hill has the speed, but Diggs can do more, and was more consistently good throughout the '20 season.  Hard to argue w/ Kelce - but Beasley is as good a possession receiver as there is in the game.  Again, a slight edge, but not what I would consider a gap.

 

We're right there. And I trust Beane more than just about anyone. He'll make the moves we need to make to catch up - it's not anything insurmountable in one offseason.

 

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, Success said:

Much better?

 

They have more experience now, and are somewhat better & more balanced, but it's not a big gap.  We can catch them next season w/ the right moves; we're not years away.

 

I don't. They have the best TE in the game one of the fastest/best speed WR in the game, Their tackle is better then anything we have, Jones is by far better then any of what we have on DL, I would also argue Clark is better then anything we have on our line as well. CB pro bowler not as good as tre but close. 

 

Sorry I would say much better outside the QB position and WR though the 2 WR are different style.

 

Their coaching is better. you look at the whole picture? we got out classed.. they MUCH Better

[Success]

11 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't. They have the best TE in the game one of the fastest/best speed WR in the game, Their tackle is better then anything we have, Jones is by far better then any of what we have on DL, I would also argue Clark is better then anything we have on our line as well. CB pro bowler not as good as tre but close. 

 

Sorry I would say much better outside the QB position and WR though the 2 WR are different style.

 

Their coaching is better. you look at the whole picture? we got out classed.. they MUCH Better

 

If all other things are equal (contracts & dollars), who do you take:  Diggs, or Hill?

 

That one isn't really close for me. I get that opinions can vary, but no way do I trade Diggs for Hill.  Hill was held to 5 or fewer catches in 9 games this past season. Diggs had one game under 6 catches.  

 

They have a pass rush & we don't.  That's fixable in an offseason, especially if that is the main priority need.  

 

I agree they're better right now. I just don't see it as significant.

 

 

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, Success said:

 

If all other things are equal (contracts & dollars), who do you take:  Diggs, or Hill?

 

That one isn't really close for me. I get that opinions can vary, but no way do I trade Diggs for Hill.  Hill was held to 5 or fewer catches in 9 games this past season. Diggs had one game under 6 catches.  

 

They have a pass rush & we don't.  That's fixable in an offseason, especially if that is the main priority need.  

 

I agree they're better right now. I just don't see it as significant.

 

 

I don't think stat holds the weight you think it does. 5 catches for 99 yards and a TD or 4 catches for 98 yards and 2 TD's are hardly bad games.

 

I could sit here and say Diggs was held to zero TD's in 10 of his games last season.  Tyreek had zero TD's in 5 games. Diggs finished the year with 8 TDs. Hill finished with 17.

[Success]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I don't think stat holds the weight you think it does. 5 catches for 99 yards and a TD or 4 catches for 98 yards and 2 TD's are hardly bad games.

 

I could sit here and say Diggs was held to zero TD's in 10 of his games last season.  Tyreek had zero TD's in 5 games. Diggs finished the year with 8 TDs. Hill finished with 17.

 

A fair point. I think I went for that stat because it's the 1st thing I thought of, having watched a lot of the Chiefs games.

 

This isn't scientific, but watching their games, he was either very prominent, or just disappeared for huge stretches.  You can say that's a product of having so many weapons, but it's not like the Bills don't, and Diggs never disappeared like Hill did.

 

I just see Hill as more of a "specialty" WR the way he plays (aside from production). He's a speedster.  Diggs gives you a lot more versatility.   Give me Diggs all day, every day over Hill.

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Success said:

 

A fair point. I think I went for that stat because it's the 1st thing I thought of, having watched a lot of the Chiefs games.

 

This isn't scientific, but watching their games, he was either very prominent, or just disappeared for huge stretches.  You can say that's a product of having so many weapons, but it's not like the Bills don't, and Diggs never disappeared like Hill did.

 

I just see Hill as more of a "specialty" WR the way he plays (aside from production). He's a speedster.  Diggs gives you a lot more versatility.   Give me Diggs all day, every day over Hill.

 

They don't compared to the Chiefs. That's the point.

 

Hill wasn't even the most targeted pass catcher on his team!

 

Kelce had 145 targets for 1400 yards and Hill had 135 targets for 1200 yards. They had 28 TDs between them.

 

Diggs had 166 targets for 1500 yards.  Our second highest WR had 107 for 960 yards. They had 12 TDs between them.

 

 

 

 

[Success]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

They don't compared to the Chiefs. That's the point.

 

Hill wasn't even the most targeted pass catcher on his team!

 

Kelce had 145 targets for 1400 yards and Hill had 135 targets for 1200 yards. They had 28 TDs between them.

 

Diggs had 166 targets for 1500 yards.  Our second highest WR had 107 for 960 yards. They had 12 TDs between them.

 

 

 

 

All true, but I was focused more on the player-to-player comparison.  I just don't see it.  No doubt Hill is a playmaker and dangerous, but he doesn't have the kind of broad skillset & versatility that Diggs has.  

 

It's a minor point in the scheme of the KC vs. Buffalo discussion.  Diggs only gives us a slight edge at that one position. The BIG gap is clearly w/ Kelce and the TE position. I think the rest (on offense) is fairly negligible.  When healthy, what we had this past season in Diggs, Brown, Beasley, Davis & even McKenzie stacks up well against KC's WR corps and the rest of the league.  I don't see it as a glaring difference.

 

It was a difference in the AFCCG because of Brown's knee, Davis' ankle, Diggs' oblique and Beasley's broken leg.  We can say they looked light years apart in the actual game, but injuries were a big part of that.  Our WR's were uncharacteristically not getting open.  Combine that with Allen running for his life all night, while Mahomes could have had a light snack in the pocket most of the night, and it created optics that made the gap look bigger than it is.  

 

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, Success said:

 

The only "big" gap I see there is at pass rusher. We're fairly anemic there - clearly, that has to be our top priority in the offseason, and the D-line in general.

 

The differences at QB and pass catcher are negligible, imo.  I'll grant a slight edge to what KC has, but it's not any kind of overall difference-maker.   Mahomes was better than Allen in the AFCCG because of the gap at pass rush - Allen had pressure all game, Mahomes didn't.  I think the QB's themselves are very close, and still wouldn't trade Allen for Mahomes straight-up.

 

Give me Diggs over Hill.  Hill has the speed, but Diggs can do more, and was more consistently good throughout the '20 season.  Hard to argue w/ Kelce - but Beasley is as good a possession receiver as there is in the game.  Again, a slight edge, but not what I would consider a gap.

 

We're right there. And I trust Beane more than just about anyone. He'll make the moves we need to make to catch up - it's not anything insurmountable in one offseason.

 

Agreed Diggs is better overall receiver then Hill but Pat also has a far superior set of backs in Williams and CEH than the Bills have in Moss or Singletary 

20 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Physical tools Josh is equally as talented as Mahomes. Josh has just as strong if not stronger of an arm and both players can run. Mahomes however has a mental edge over Josh. Mahomes knows how to perfectly counter any type of defense that is thrown at him. 

 

Josh has come a long way mentally but he still has some defenses he needs to work against better. Hopefully he works on attacking zones and blitzes in the offseason. Because Josh can put it together like Mahomes.

Don’t forget Patrick also has one of the real offensive geniuses to ever coach the game as his head coach from the get go...Josh has Deboll who prior to having Josh really didn’t do much as a coordinator outside of Bama which you or I could coordinate to 10 wins 

19 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

People say Josh is not in the conversation with Mahomes because of what Mahomes has done and what he is doing. 

 

I will say this...

 

Sit Josh for one year on the bench his rookie year

Then have the team built around him in every aspect good to go

Then have that coach and that staff

 

Put Josh In KC and bring Mahomes here...

 

do you really think our results would have been any different? Think the results KC got in the last 3 years would be any different?

 

perspective people.

Better yet put Josh with the Dallas Cowboys and not only their receivers but having Elliot and Pollard behind him and the Cowboys are in the Super Bowl 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

19 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

People say Josh is not in the conversation with Mahomes because of what Mahomes has done and what he is doing. 

 

I will say this...

 

Sit Josh for one year on the bench his rookie year

Then have the team built around him in every aspect good to go

Then have that coach and that staff

 

Put Josh In KC and bring Mahomes here...

 

do you really think our results would have been any different? Think the results KC got in the last 3 years would be any different?

 

perspective people.

once tyrod is pulled for Mahomes?
 

Yes I think we beat the jags in the playoffs in 2017