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Lorax discusses Tremaine Edmunds

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13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yup. The haters (it's a word I find kinda stupid, but Edmunds really does seem to have them) want to say that he should be ready.

 

Fact is plenty of guys have made huge leaps during and after their third years. Lawrence Taylor sure wasn't Lawrence Taylor his first three years. He was very good (so is Edmunds when healthy), but he still had major improvements to make. Derrick Brooks was tackling people but still hadn't fully figured out pass defense till his late third and early fourth years. James Harrison, certainly, and there are plenty more.

 

And before the nonsense starts, I'm not comparing Edmunds to them except in one way. They prove that it's perfectly possible, in fact pretty common, for LBs to make major leaps later in their careers than Edmunds has yet reached.

 

 

 

 


we live in a pretty amazing world where damn near anything is possible. 
 

it’s a terrible baseline for discussion.

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On 10/17/2020 at 3:40 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Lorax is an internet dude now.   He also gets paid to make guest appearances on radio and has a close, mentor-teacher relationship with the player he is being asked to critique.   If you are expecting his unobjective opinion then you are naive.  Now if Edmunds was some dude on some other team I am sure Lorax would tell you about the importance of instincts for a linebacker.   But since Edmunds lacks them.........its not a point of discussion.

 

2) I contest the notion that Edmunds absolutely has produced.   Preston fricken' Brown lead the NFL in tackles in this defense in 2017.  It's designed to create plays for the MLB to make.  That's why they invested so much in acquiring Edmunds relative to where the league typically values that position.  Edmunds has greatly underachieved statistically as a result of his lack of instincts for the position. 

 

 

I love it, "Lorax is an internet dude now," like this makes you and him equally knowledgeable.

 

Two in a row in terms of giving perfect, textbook examples of what I described. The old "you're so naive, everybody knows he's lying except you, since we know he's lying because he disagreed with me" ploy. And it's flagrant, ridiculous nonsense.

 

I'll tell you want everybody at this point knows - with the apparent exception of you - and that is that if your irons in the fire stop you from criticizing someone there are a million ways to act that are smarter and better in both the short and the long-term than to lie. Assuming that because he has an iron in the fire (questionable but possible) that he's lying is utter nonsense. Guys who are obvious team shills lose credibility, and fast. Their opinions are rapidly less sought after because they're predictable.

 

And again, there are a million ways to avoid lying and keep your credibility. First, you can just not comment. Simplest thing in the world. But the easiest and most common thing to do if you must comment is to pick one of the infinite number of ways to play Crash Davis. "Tremaine Edmunds is a smart young man. I want him on my side in an alley fight anytime." Or "This guy gives 110% out there game in and game out." Or "The Bills should be proud to have such a fine representative on the field living up to the fine tradition of the blue, white and red." There's a million of them. Probably a billion. You don't have to say anything specific.

 

When instead a guy makes a specific relevant comment - as Lorax does here - it should be believed. There are so many ways to avoid doing it that when they choose that direction, it means something. And when you refuse to believe him, what's spectacularly clear is that the guy not to be believed is the one out there doubting the experts.

 

You're right about one thing. It's not even a point of discussion. When healthy, Edmunds has produced very well indeed. Again, you're correct that "extraordinary" would be an overstatement, but he's been a very solid producer, one of the three or so best players on a defense that was terrific the past two years.

Edited by Thurman#1

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3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

100% agreed.

 

It must have seemed like Bizarro World to the defense. "We've defensed three drives. We've allowed a total of 62 yards on those three drives, and we're down 14-7. Something's not right."

 

 

 

 

I think that's fair enough. Edmunds is not extraordinary yet.

 

So far just very very good when healthy.

 

 

The problem appears to be that even hurt he's better than his healthy backup. That's why he's playing.


yeah.....but that’s the problem.  The guy is hurt and risking getting hurt even more because he’d be better than his backup?  How about we let the guy heal so he can actually be 💯 at some point this year.  You say that he’s “very good” when healthy..... so why not try and get him healthy?  Answering:  because he’s better than his backup, doesn’t make any sense with regards to trying to get him 💯.  That should be our priority with him imo.  We need “very good” Tremaine.  “Injured and crappy” Tremaine is a waste imo.  
 

my theory is based on:  when Tremaine is injured, he sucks.  When Tremaine is healthy, he’s very good.  Priority should be getting him healthy ASAP instead of wallowing in the middle of healthy and hurt.  Being in no mans land isn’t a good place for Tremaine from my observation

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3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yup. The haters (it's a word I find kinda stupid, but Edmunds really does seem to have them) want to say that he should be ready.

 

Fact is plenty of guys have made huge leaps during and after their third years. Lawrence Taylor sure wasn't Lawrence Taylor his first three years. He was very good (so is Edmunds when healthy), but he still had major improvements to make. Derrick Brooks was tackling people but still hadn't fully figured out pass defense till his late third and early fourth years. James Harrison, certainly, and there are plenty more.

 

And before the nonsense starts, I'm not comparing Edmunds to them except in one way. They (and many others) prove that it's perfectly possible, in fact pretty common, for LBs to make major leaps later in their careers than Edmunds has yet reached.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As @NoSaint said.........you you gotta' have some kind of baseline to make comparisons.

 

Those players you mentioned were all OLB's.     Taylor and Harrison weren't even playing in 4-3 defenses.   You might as well have used a safety or DE as a developmental comp.

 

Here is an example of a reasonable comparison..............the predecessor to Edmunds at the MLB position in McDermott's defense was far less talented but a more efficient tackler.

 

See how that works?  

 

What's especially concerning with Edmunds isn't his SLOW development.............it's the lack of development...........he isn't improving.

 

Not from year 1 to year 2.

 

Certainly not from year 2 to year 3.

 

He went from a rookie who made mistakes but also made plays...........to a second year guy who was still taking too many false steps but made less plays.......to now a third year player who has made zero plays thru 4 games.    No turnovers, no QB hits..........he's just running in circles out there and the season didn't begin with him injured.   

 

Thru a third of this season he has just been lost out there.       

Edited by BADOLBILZ
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18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

As @NoSaint said.........you you gotta' have some kind of baseline to make comparisons.

 

Those players you mentioned were all OLB's.     Taylor and Harrison weren't even playing in 4-3 defenses.   You might as well have used a safety or DE as a developmental comp.

 

Here is an example of a reasonable comparison..............the predecessor to Edmunds at the MLB position in McDermott's defense was far less talented but a more efficient tackler.

 

See how that works?  

 

What's especially concerning with Edmunds isn't his SLOW development.............it's the lack of development...........he isn't improving.

 

Not from year 1 to year 2.

 

Certainly not from year 2 to year 3.

 

He went from a rookie who made mistakes but also made plays...........to a second year guy who was still taking too many false steps but made less plays.......to now a third year player who has made zero plays thru 4 games.    No turnovers, no QB hits..........he's just running in circles out there and the season didn't begin with him injured.   

 

Thru a third of this season he has just been lost out there.       


I mentioned it elsewhere but when you are playing 110 mph and hitting people and the offense has to keep an eye on you those mis reads don’t bug me here and there 

 

you’ve got to be able to play fast mentally or physically (preferably both, but at least one) and he’s doing neither currently 

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28 minutes ago, NoSaint said:


I mentioned it elsewhere but when you are playing 110 mph and hitting people and the offense has to keep an eye on you those mis reads don’t bug me here and there 

 

you’ve got to be able to play fast mentally or physically (preferably both, but at least one) and he’s doing neither currently 

 

 

Yeah he is just in a state the past two seasons where it's hard to envision him ever being able to play fast there.

 

There isn't a light switch for instincts.

 

Whereas you could see real flashes of instinctive play immediately with Josh Allen at QB...........that's never been the case with Edmunds.

 

When a MLB is talented and instinctive you frequently have those moments in games where it looks like he and the guy with the ball are the only ones out there.

 

Even on Edmunds best plays it's not that way........he is often one of the least visible players out there.   

 

It's frustrating to watch talent like that get wasted.  

 

Not the first time a Bills regime has played a gifted player out of position and squandered talent but it's one of the more egregious examples, IMO.

 

Beyond the Bills organization themselves........if I were Edmunds agent or family member I'd be beside myself watching him struggle playing a cheaper position and getting beat up in the middle.............Edmunds' father played one of the more demanding positions and was a star but injuries sustained at TE quickly derailed his career.     I'd want him outside where he has a chance to play a long time and earn a lot more money.

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4 hours ago, NewEra said:


yeah.....but that’s the problem.  The guy is hurt and risking getting hurt even more because he’d be better than his backup?  How about we let the guy heal so he can actually be 💯 at some point this year.  You say that he’s “very good” when healthy..... so why not try and get him healthy?  Answering:  because he’s better than his backup, doesn’t make any sense with regards to trying to get him 💯.  That should be our priority with him imo.  We need “very good” Tremaine.  “Injured and crappy” Tremaine is a waste imo.  
 

my theory is based on:  when Tremaine is injured, he sucks.  When Tremaine is healthy, he’s very good.  Priority should be getting him healthy ASAP instead of wallowing in the middle of healthy and hurt.  Being in no mans land isn’t a good place for Tremaine from my observation

 

 

Who says he risking getting hurt even more? Are you a doctor? If he is risking getting hurt even more, what are the odds? You're not a doctor, you don't know. Full disclosure, neither do I. 

 

But I do know football players play through pain pretty much every week. How much pain is acceptable is something they have to battle with and think about, a lot. But it's in their DNA to try. What's McD's thing? The greatest ability is availability? Something like that? We don't have the info they have, so I'm going with the team and Tremaine on this, myself.

 

And as the videos seem to show, injured Tremaine is getting less crappy each week, so I'm not buying your theory. If it was "get him healthy" (rest) vs. "wallow in the middle" (play) you'd be right, IMO, but it's never that simple. Often reality can fall in the middle between those and playing can be some percentage of both.

 

Lorax didn't need to say a thing. But he said he'll be fine. And that he's in the right position.

 

I agree we need very good, and I hope it comes back again fast. The problems with the defense are complex. People want to pretend it's only one guy. It's not. It's the system and several guys and a lack of preseason time to work together and a whole lot of other stuff. 

Edited by Thurman#1

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2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah he is just in a state the past two seasons where it's hard to envision him ever being able to play fast there.

 

There isn't a light switch for instincts.

 

Whereas you could see real flashes of instinctive play immediately with Josh Allen at QB...........that's never been the case with Edmunds.

 

When a MLB is talented and instinctive you frequently have those moments in games where it looks like he and the guy with the ball are the only ones out there.

 

Even on Edmunds best plays it's not that way........he is often one of the least visible players out there.   

 

It's frustrating to watch talent like that get wasted.  

 

Not the first time a Bills regime has played a gifted player out of position and squandered talent but it's one of the more egregious examples, IMO.

 

Beyond the Bills organization themselves........if I were Edmunds agent or family member I'd be beside myself watching him struggle playing a cheaper position and getting beat up in the middle.............Edmunds' father played one of the more demanding positions and was a star but injuries sustained at TE quickly derailed his career.     I'd want him outside where he has a chance to play a long time and earn a lot more money.

 

 

 

 

Thank God we've got somebody on here who knows so much more about football and about Tremaine Edmunds than do McDermott and Tremaine Edmunds, and knows phrases like "light switch for instincts" and uses them with total confidence.

 

Sure, they see all the practices and know exactly how he's scored on every play ... but a guy like you doesn't need any of that to know way more than they do and Lorax does, and really everybody does. All those people who know far more than you, the fact that they disagree with you totally proves they're wrong. I completely get it.

Edited by Thurman#1

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6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Who says he risking getting hurt even more? Are you a doctor? If he is risking getting hurt even more, what are the odds? You're not a doctor, you don't know. Full disclosure, neither do I. 

 

But I do know football players play through pain pretty much every week. How much pain is acceptable is something they have to battle with and think about, a lot. But it's in their DNA to try. What's McD's thing? The greatest ability is availability? Something like that? We don't have the info they have, so I'm going with the team and Tremaine on this, myself.

 

And as the videos seem to show, injured Tremaine is getting less crappy each week, so I'm not buying your theory. If it was "get him healthy" (rest) vs. "wallow in the middle" (play) you'd be right, IMO, but it's never that simple. Often reality can fall in the middle between those and playing can be some percentage of both.

I worry more   the injury gets in his head. Mind will trick the body to protect itself.
Some injuries you play through because they will not quickly heal from rest. Or they likely will not become worse for the player.
 Position of interest for the Bills to move forward as Defense.

 unfortunately 

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2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I worry more   the injury gets in his head. Mind will trick the body to protect itself.
Some injuries you play through because they will not quickly heal from rest. Or they likely will not become worse for the player.
 Position of interest for the Bills to move forward as Defense.

 unfortunately 

 

 

Fair enough, I guess. It's possible. I don't worry about that, myself, but I do find other things to worry about.

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1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Fair enough, I guess. It's possible. I don't worry about that, myself, but I do find other things to worry about.

Plenty to worry about. We are Bills fans. It's normal.
I really hoped we would get more from Klein playing between tackle mostly on run downs. to take the load off Edmunds shoulder at least

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5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

As @NoSaint said.........you you gotta' have some kind of baseline to make comparisons.

 

Those players you mentioned were all OLB's.     Taylor and Harrison weren't even playing in 4-3 defenses.   You might as well have used a safety or DE as a developmental comp.

 

Here is an example of a reasonable comparison..............the predecessor to Edmunds at the MLB position in McDermott's defense was far less talented but a more efficient tackler.

 

See how that works?  

 

What's especially concerning with Edmunds isn't his SLOW development.............it's the lack of development...........he isn't improving.

 

Not from year 1 to year 2.

 

Certainly not from year 2 to year 3.

 

He went from a rookie who made mistakes but also made plays...........to a second year guy who was still taking too many false steps but made less plays.......to now a third year player who has made zero plays thru 4 games.    No turnovers, no QB hits..........he's just running in circles out there and the season didn't begin with him injured.   

 

Thru a third of this season he has just been lost out there.       

 

 

Oh, nonsense. Like ILB and OLB are well-known to have totally different times to learn. Fine, Mike Singletary's first two years he wasn't even close to what he became. Steve Nelson took a long time to get going before becoming an excellent ILB. Lawrence Timmons became great in about his fourth year, putting the pass game together with the run. Hardy Nickerson took forever to get started. Pepper Johnson. London Fletcher didn't get much of what was going on around him early, then caught on to the run game but really didn't have the whole thing come together till lateish in his third year and you could argue it was a lot longer than that. Keith Brooking, one of my faves from back in the day, really saw it come together in his fourth year. And ILB is getting harder and more convoluted as time passes and they have to get more and more involved in more intricate areas of the pass game. Bart Scott didn't even start his first three years. Tedy Braschi didn't see it come together till his fourth year.

 

So, that's just nonsense.

 

And as for his "lack of improvement," he ...  is ... injured. Seems to be pulling it back together a bit as the year goes on, though. Through the first two years though, pretty much everyone has him as improving. 

 

As a person who knows more than Lorax and McDermott among many others, you may not believe that. Your disbelief should concern any Bills fan just about not at all.

 

 

Edited by Thurman#1

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Love Lorax, but not sure what game he was watching. Yes, Edmunds was all over the field.  Usually about 3 yards behind the guy with the ball chasing him.  I knew he was having a bad game when even my wife commented on his play and asking what has happened to him.  Yes, it may be the injury, and he may recover.  But saying he played a great game or even a solid game against the Titans is not right.

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I wonder how serious McBeane or Lorax are about being an option for the Bills?

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In the end, film does not lie. While Edmunds has been unable to reach his draft status expectations as of yet (that can't be argued really), he is also playing his responsibility correctly far more often than most fans think (see cover1 review). Playing hurt so that the team can maintain consistency with the calls on D is the unfortunate reality he's playing with right now as well. This team really doesn't have a true MLB either, so we need to stop judging him like a standard 4-3 MLB when he is a nickel backer on like 80% of the Bills defensive snaps. His job is to cover his gap and peruse downhill on run plays (certainly some issues there still, and more since the injury) and cover space in the short to medium middle on pass plays, which he does well. He progressed quite well last season and I hope he can get back to where he was then. I also agree with the others who have mentioned scheme down and distance predictability as one of the contributing factors to his struggles. 

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19 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

In the end, film does not lie. While Edmunds has been unable to reach his draft status expectations as of yet (that can't be argued really), he is also playing his responsibility correctly far more often than most fans think (see cover1 review). Playing hurt so that the team can maintain consistency with the calls on D is the unfortunate reality he's playing with right now as well. This team really doesn't have a true MLB either, so we need to stop judging him like a standard 4-3 MLB when he is a nickel backer on like 80% of the Bills defensive snaps. His job is to cover his gap and peruse downhill on run plays (certainly some issues there still, and more since the injury) and cover space in the short to medium middle on pass plays, which he does well. He progressed quite well last season and I hope he can get back to where he was then. I also agree with the others who have mentioned scheme down and distance predictability as one of the contributing factors to his struggles. 

Cover 1 thats like homer radio💩  he reads the tape yo thats it!

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Turner? No I find that he knows exactly what he's looking at. I am quite sure you are most incorrect unless you a referring to one of the other cover1 Buff shows.

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1 hour ago, DQW87 said:

Love Lorax, but not sure what game he was watching. Yes, Edmunds was all over the field.  Usually about 3 yards behind the guy with the ball chasing him.  I knew he was having a bad game when even my wife commented on his play and asking what has happened to him.  Yes, it may be the injury, and he may recover.  But saying he played a great game or even a solid game against the Titans is not right.

It’s a real struggle to convince a select few Edmunds is playing awful and has struggled a lot since his rookie season. 

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4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

It’s a real struggle to convince a select few Edmunds is playing awful and has struggled a lot since his rookie season. 

 

 

Nope, not even close, dude. It isn't "a select few" who can't be convinced he's playing poorly. That's the huge majority and includes all the people who know much more than us. The select few are you folks who simply won't admit that an injury can (and it's happening right now in Tremaine's case) affect performance. And that while he was making mistakes his rookie year that he cleaned up most of them last year and was playing very well.

 

Add Jeremiah Sirles in as yet another who knows far more than you and thinks you're just wrong: "I think he's hurt. I played against Tremaine, I practiced with him for a year and a half, and the kid's one of the most physical specimens that you've ever seen. And watching the way that he's approaching his contact, I mean even getting off blocks or instead of trying to thud an offensive lineman and shed the block, he's kind of backing up and trying to more finesse-move it. I think he's hurt. I don't know what's hurt, I don't know if it's a back, knee, shoulder, but I think there's something wrong because I do think he's one of the most diverse football players on the defensive side of the ball in the league, with the things he can do. I mean the range he can cover it so quickly, with the athletic ability and the physicality is everything you're looking for in a player and let's not forget he's 22 years old. I mean the kid's super-young still, he's still got a lot of development to go. But I do think that you need to get him healthy. But the problem is that if Milano's out AND Edmunds is out, you're really struggling, so I mean if Edmunds can go I agree that there's a certain piece of 'we need him on the field' but at the same time you've got to make sure that he's gonna be available down the stretch and that this isn't going to be something that just lingers all year and hampers his development.

 

That's on this week's "The Shout Podcast." And he's not just throwing bouquets out there either, he's willing to say some things that aren't positive. Says he doesn't see explosiveness this year from Oliver and that he's not a guy who can be effective without that, for instance.

 

It's pretty much everyone pointing out that you and your little select few are wrong.

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7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I wonder how serious McBeane or Lorax are about being an option for the Bills?


This is what I can see as a solution for this year.  Lorax would be a great defensive leader, and can mentor Edmunds on the field, he’s still it looks to be in great shape, said he could be open to the idea.  I know originally it was if We were in playoff contention which at 4-1 is something around an 87% chance of making the playoffs, and I’m sure he wouldn’t mind another payday.  To me Lorax looked just as good last year as he did two years earlier.  He can be on a pitch count, etc.  There really isn’t anyone better on the street unless you want to resurrect Clay Matthews, but he didn’t look the same towards the end.

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