Protest in Buffalo

[Doc Brown]

9 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

In a video taken just prior to the when he fell down he verbally claimed that he was there for a little fun and wanted to get punched in the face. Everything about him raises the spidey sense. 

Yeah.  I saw that video too and one of his tweets suggested that he'd "break" curfew.  He's got a few screws loose to say the least.  To fall backwards like that on purpose without bracing for impact seems unlikely though.  Definitely something the leader of the free world shouldn't accuse him of publicly without evidence.

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Audio was poor. It sounded to me like the black was repeating and intimating what Gugino had said but I certainly could be wrong.

 

Struck me more of a case of the old guy was talking trash about the cops & the other guy was summarizing it - he wants to get punched in the face (maybe not directly, but what he'd planned on doing would in the other guy's opinion get him punched in the face).

[SoCal Deek]

12 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Yeah.  I saw that video too and one of his tweets suggested that he'd "break" curfew.  He's got a few screws loose to say the least.  To fall backwards like that on purpose without bracing for impact seems unlikely though.  Definitely something the leader of the free world shouldn't accuse him of publicly without evidence.

My 86 year old father fell backwards exactly like that about two weeks ago...but he didn’t hit his head because his arms instinctively went down to brace his fall. He actually ended up with a severe case of whiplash from his neck instinctively stiffening so as NOT TO hit his head on the pavement. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by SoCal Deek

[Wacka]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:25 PM, GregPersons said:

 

Who invented slavery?

At least as far back as the Egyptians.  Moses was a slave.

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Wacka said:

At least as far back as the Egyptians.  Moses was a slave.

Let my people go! 

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

Yeah.  I saw that video too and one of his tweets suggested that he'd "break" curfew.  He's got a few screws loose to say the least.  To fall backwards like that on purpose without bracing for impact seems unlikely though.  Definitely something the leader of the free world shouldn't accuse him of publicly without evidence.

 

I don't think that was a flop.  It looked like a legitimate fall.  But at 6'9" 110 lbs you hit him with a feather he's going down let alone a baton.  

47 minutes ago, Wacka said:

At least as far back as the Egyptians.  Moses was a slave.

 

@GregPersons  Who invented slavery?  Easy.....humans.  

[B-Man]

Buffalo, NY Neighbors Gather to Clean up after Riots, They Find an 18-Year-Old Man Hard at Work

 

 

 

 

[GaryPinC]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:06 AM, Chef Jim said:

@GaryPinC ?   Waiting. 

Look at the double video.  There is Gugino, a guy with a BLM sign, and a news reporter in front of the police line on the steps in front of the officers.  I see no one throwing anything at the officers.  I hear the officers marching orders echoing off the buildings with no loud noise of protesters.  Would you dispute those facts?  I see them push over Gugino while then arresting the BLM guy who I think is cursing at them.  I hear one or two extra voices from protesters remarking how they pushed over that old guy.

 

I see a stressful situation but not a highly stressed situation as there appear to be few protesters in the immediate vicinity of the police force.  And the audio seems to back this up nicely.

 

Now you answer me this:  Why did they not simply arrest Gugino?  He did not approach them quickly,  I saw he took at least 4 slow steps in approaching them, his body posture is upright and his walking style is not showing tension, even somewhat casual.  Even though the police line on the steps moves forward, the line on the street stays put, officers alert but not appearing in a stressed, defensive posture.

 

Why did they not behave as professionals and simply arrest him?

[ALF]

To me it looked like the supervisor pushed the officer who pushed the man instead of ordering arrest. The 2 officers did not look like they meant any harm to the man , it just went bad . Poor judgement to shove a elderly man.  I would be surprised if the Grand Jury indicted them.

[Chef Jim]

50 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Look at the double video.  There is Gugino, a guy with a BLM sign, and a news reporter in front of the police line on the steps in front of the officers.  I see no one throwing anything at the officers.  I hear the officers marching orders echoing off the buildings with no loud noise of protesters.  Would you dispute those facts?  I see them push over Gugino while then arresting the BLM guy who I think is cursing at them.  I hear one or two extra voices from protesters remarking how they pushed over that old guy.

 

I see a stressful situation but not a highly stressed situation as there appear to be few protesters in the immediate vicinity of the police force.  And the audio seems to back this up nicely.

 

Now you answer me this:  Why did they not simply arrest Gugino?  He did not approach them quickly,  I saw he took at least 4 slow steps in approaching them, his body posture is upright and his walking style is not showing tension, even somewhat casual.  Even though the police line on the steps moves forward, the line on the street stays put, officers alert but not appearing in a stressed, defensive posture.

 

Why did they not behave as professionals and simply arrest him?

 

Because what he did did not warrant being arrested.   He reached out to them and they pushed him away and he lost his balance and fell.  Very simple.

 

What, in your opinion, would have been a satisfactory way for them to have handled the situation? 

 

What if they had done what you suggested and during the arrest procedure he lost his balance and fell?  

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Chef Jim

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

52 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Look at the double video.  There is Gugino, a guy with a BLM sign, and a news reporter in front of the police line on the steps in front of the officers.  I see no one throwing anything at the officers.  I hear the officers marching orders echoing off the buildings with no loud noise of protesters.  Would you dispute those facts?  I see them push over Gugino while then arresting the BLM guy who I think is cursing at them.  I hear one or two extra voices from protesters remarking how they pushed over that old guy.

 

I see a stressful situation but not a highly stressed situation as there appear to be few protesters in the immediate vicinity of the police force.  And the audio seems to back this up nicely.

 

Now you answer me this:  Why did they not simply arrest Gugino?  He did not approach them quickly,  I saw he took at least 4 slow steps in approaching them, his body posture is upright and his walking style is not showing tension, even somewhat casual.  Even though the police line on the steps moves forward, the line on the street stays put, officers alert but not appearing in a stressed, defensive posture.

 

Why did they not behave as professionals and simply arrest him?

I think it's probably because he was fumbling around the abdomen/groin of the officers in question.  I'd hazard a guess that if he casually walked up to just about any man on the street, engaged in dialogue and made those motions the response would be similar.  If he did it to a woman, the response would be just as visceral if not worse.  

 

When I factor in a very tense situation, and police with a target on their backs, I'd think the officers were concerned with any number of outcomes, none of which are pleasant.  

 

As for arresting him, sure, that would have been nice. The narrative would shift to jackbooted thugs rounding up a harmless old guy who just wasn't aware that approaching the police in a riot line might make them very, very uncomfortable.  Still, a much better outcome for the officers involved. 

[bdutton]

22 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

What, in your opinion, would have been a satisfactory way for them to have handled the situation? 

 

 

 

 

The police should have dropped their riot gear, joined hands with the old man and sung kum ba yah.

[Chef Jim]

15 minutes ago, bdutton said:

The police should have dropped their riot gear, joined hands with the old man and sung kum ba yah.

 

Good...good.  How about is idiots hadn't rioted across he country we wouldn't have had cops in riot gear moving people along.  So they get some of the blame too right?? 

[bilzfancy]

On 6/9/2020 at 5:09 PM, Wacka said:

At least as far back as the Egyptians.  Moses was a slave.

Which means Africans had slaves, maybe the Jews should get reperations

[Cinga]

2 hours ago, bilzfancy said:

Which means Africans had slaves, maybe the Jews should get reperations

If we include ancient times which we should in any discussion of slavery, I don't know that there is a single ethnic group that was subservient to another at one time or another.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

[GaryPinC]

On 6/15/2020 at 4:14 PM, Chef Jim said:

 

Because what he did did not warrant being arrested.   He reached out to them and they pushed him away and he lost his balance and fell.  Very simple.

 

What, in your opinion, would have been a satisfactory way for them to have handled the situation? 

 

What if they had done what you suggested and during the arrest procedure he lost his balance and fell?  

 

 

 

Then show me evidence that it was ok to shove aside a 75 year old man.  He was in violation of curfew.  They appeared to arrest the other protester remaining there.  Why did they not simply arrest him?  Even if you don't know his exact age, IT'S AN OLD MAN who has approached slowly and is not trying to be violent.  It is the officers who decide to use violence.

 

If they arrest him and he falls?  Were they using inappropriate force if he was being cooperative?  If not then it's on the old man.  Are you simply being disingenuous or do you truly believe human beings can't use some intelligence to assess the situation and respond appropriately? 

 

I have sad news for you, the greater point of all the protesting is that some police officers are behaving unprofessionally, even highly so in the case of racism, and many of us are demanding change.  While this Buffalo incident is nowhere even approaching the magnitude of George Floyd, the underlying mentality that it's ok to use physical force even when it's not justified by the situation needs to change.  

 

Now it's your turn.  I have provided the facts of the situation via video, the use of force in this situation was unprofessional, and the man was breaking the law by being on the square past curfew and thus subject to being arrested as the other protester appeared to be on the video.  If you believe Gugino did not warrant being arrested, why did his fellow protester (who did not approach the police line) less 50 feet away?   

 

Please provide your rationale with evidence that this was a highly charged and dangerous situation or whatever else you feel to justify the police lashing out at this old man and how this was professional.

[Chef Jim]

16 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Then show me evidence that it was ok to shove aside a 75 year old man.  He was in violation of curfew.  They appeared to arrest the other protester remaining there.  Why did they not simply arrest him?  Even if you don't know his exact age, IT'S AN OLD MAN who has approached slowly and is not trying to be violent.  It is the officers who decide to use violence.

 

If they arrest him and he falls?  Were they using inappropriate force if he was being cooperative?  If not then it's on the old man.  Are you simply being disingenuous or do you truly believe human beings can't use some intelligence to assess the situation and respond appropriately? 

 

I have sad news for you, the greater point of all the protesting is that some police officers are behaving unprofessionally, even highly so in the case of racism, and many of us are demanding change.  While this Buffalo incident is nowhere even approaching the magnitude of George Floyd, the underlying mentality that it's ok to use physical force even when it's not justified by the situation needs to change.  

 

Now it's your turn.  I have provided the facts of the situation via video, the use of force in this situation was unprofessional, and the man was breaking the law by being on the square past curfew and thus subject to being arrested as the other protester appeared to be on the video.  If you believe Gugino did not warrant being arrested, why did his fellow protester (who did not approach the police line) less 50 feet away?   

 

Please provide your rationale with evidence that this was a highly charged and dangerous situation or whatever else you feel to justify the police lashing out at this old man and how this was professional.

 

If you think they shoved him because he was violating curfew you have not watched that video in detail. They shoved him because he approached them and reached out to them.  If you think being "forcefully" moved along after you have approached a cop and reached out to him is violence I can't help you.  Again the fact that he was old and couldn't keep his balance I'm sorry that happened.  But I chalk this up to he played a stupid game and those are the consequences.  His actions were stupid and he has some major culpability in the outcome.

 

Now regarding the fact that it's my turn that using force was unprofessional?  What do you want them to do?  He ***** reached out to them.  Police officers carry weapons that can be taken away from them and used against them.  Do you think that might have been what when through their heads?  Is that even a REMOTE possibility to you?  If so then pushing him away from them was absolutely warranted.  That is my point and has always been my point.  

 

My point is also this was a STRESSFUL situation.  Highly charged and dangerous situation are your words.  Cops were (and still are) under attack across the country.  Verbally and physically so couple the stress of the situation and the fact they had ZERO clue what his intentions were by approaching them and reaching out to them moving him out of the way was justified.  

 

 

[3rdnlng]

29 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Then show me evidence that it was ok to shove aside a 75 year old man.  He was in violation of curfew.  They appeared to arrest the other protester remaining there.  Why did they not simply arrest him?  Even if you don't know his exact age, IT'S AN OLD MAN who has approached slowly and is not trying to be violent.  It is the officers who decide to use violence.

 

If they arrest him and he falls?  Were they using inappropriate force if he was being cooperative?  If not then it's on the old man.  Are you simply being disingenuous or do you truly believe human beings can't use some intelligence to assess the situation and respond appropriately? 

 

I have sad news for you, the greater point of all the protesting is that some police officers are behaving unprofessionally, even highly so in the case of racism, and many of us are demanding change.  While this Buffalo incident is nowhere even approaching the magnitude of George Floyd, the underlying mentality that it's ok to use physical force even when it's not justified by the situation needs to change.  

 

Now it's your turn.  I have provided the facts of the situation via video, the use of force in this situation was unprofessional, and the man was breaking the law by being on the square past curfew and thus subject to being arrested as the other protester appeared to be on the video.  If you believe Gugino did not warrant being arrested, why did his fellow protester (who did not approach the police line) less 50 feet away?   

 

Please provide your rationale with evidence that this was a highly charged and dangerous situation or whatever else you feel to justify the police lashing out at this old man and how this was professional.

Did you miss the fact that Gugino made a motion towards the officer down around his belt area where his weapon/radio might have been? As a cop I would have at a minimum used my arm to ward off the person trying to do so. That looks exactly like what the officer did.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, GaryPinC said:

Now it's your turn.  I have provided the facts of the situation via video

 

Here are some additional factors to add a little more context

 

The police are formed up as a unit for the purpose of crowd control and moving protesters away from a specific area. To do this they have to work together as a group. Moving a crowd always has the potential for escalation, even peaceful crowds. Emotions run high and sometimes there is resistance. This didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened on the heels of 5 days of protests where many "peaceful" protests had isolated violent behaviors and other peaceful protests turned violent on a larger scale. 

 

The man approached the officers and clearly reached his right hand toward an officer's belt. It was at this point that the man was pushed back (after several orders to get back). It is an immediate and appropriate response. It was not disproportionate to the man's actions and certainly did not appear to be done with an intent to harm. He stumbled backward and fell awkwardly. Had he not fallen and continued to engage the officers, he would have been arrested as was the case with the other protester.

 

Operation Plans always have contingencies for medical response and, as soon as the man went down, an officer immediately got on his radio. Within 15 seconds a medic was attending to the man.

 

Even in a "normal" situation, that man would have been pushed back after getting within several feet of an officer and reaching for the officer's belt area. You can go on all you like about the man's age. Officers simply cannot assume everyone who approaches them has peacful intent or no ability to cause harm, particularly in the atmosphere in which this took place. They simply do not have that luxury.

 

I hate that the man was injured and it was extremely unfortunate. However, there was no behavior on the part of any officer that was outside of protocol, that would indicate intent to injure the man, or that a reasonable person could foresee would result in serious injury.

 

There are instances where police need to be held accountable for unjustified use of force. This is not one of them.

[GaryPinC]

On 6/17/2020 at 11:32 AM, billsfan1959 said:

 

Here are some additional factors to add a little more context

 

The police are formed up as a unit for the purpose of crowd control and moving protesters away from a specific area. To do this they have to work together as a group. Moving a crowd always has the potential for escalation, even peaceful crowds. Emotions run high and sometimes there is resistance. This didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened on the heels of 5 days of protests where many "peaceful" protests had isolated violent behaviors and other peaceful protests turned violent on a larger scale. 

 

The man approached the officers and clearly reached his right hand toward an officer's belt. It was at this point that the man was pushed back (after several orders to get back). It is an immediate and appropriate response. It was not disproportionate to the man's actions and certainly did not appear to be done with an intent to harm. He stumbled backward and fell awkwardly. Had he not fallen and continued to engage the officers, he would have been arrested as was the case with the other protester.

 

Operation Plans always have contingencies for medical response and, as soon as the man went down, an officer immediately got on his radio. Within 15 seconds a medic was attending to the man.

 

Even in a "normal" situation, that man would have been pushed back after getting within several feet of an officer and reaching for the officer's belt area. You can go on all you like about the man's age. Officers simply cannot assume everyone who approaches them has peacful intent or no ability to cause harm, particularly in the atmosphere in which this took place. They simply do not have that luxury.

 

I hate that the man was injured and it was extremely unfortunate. However, there was no behavior on the part of any officer that was outside of protocol, that would indicate intent to injure the man, or that a reasonable person could foresee would result in serious injury.

 

There are instances where police need to be held accountable for unjustified use of force. This is not one of them.

I understand what you're saying, and given this didn't happen in a vacuum, it's NOT a crowd.  It's a couple guys, they arrested the one and shoved the other.  Please explain to me why they did not arrest both men?  What part of protocol justified pushing this man given the lack of a crowd?  If anything, he should have been the one most likely to be arrested.

 

I also take exception to your assertion that the man clearly reached his right hand toward an officer's belt.  He did not.  He had his cell phone in his hand and clearly motioning with his hand around the officer.

 

I don't have a problem with how the man received medical attention.  There clearly was a plan in place and the lead officers were instructed not to break ranks while others attended.

 

In this situation, I believe the officers did have the luxury to assess and simply arrest him after warning.  Protocols need to change.  I get that in other situations they may not and shoving people aside can be warranted.  "It's ok because in other situations it would be ok" just doesn't cut it.  People are sick of it.

On 6/17/2020 at 10:23 AM, Chef Jim said:

 

If you think they shoved him because he was violating curfew you have not watched that video in detail. They shoved him because he approached them and reached out to them.  If you think being "forcefully" moved along after you have approached a cop and reached out to him is violence I can't help you.  Again the fact that he was old and couldn't keep his balance I'm sorry that happened.  But I chalk this up to he played a stupid game and those are the consequences.  His actions were stupid and he has some major culpability in the outcome.

 

Now regarding the fact that it's my turn that using force was unprofessional?  What do you want them to do?  He ***** reached out to them.  Police officers carry weapons that can be taken away from them and used against them.  Do you think that might have been what when through their heads?  Is that even a REMOTE possibility to you?  If so then pushing him away from them was absolutely warranted.  That is my point and has always been my point.  

 

My point is also this was a STRESSFUL situation.  Highly charged and dangerous situation are your words.  Cops were (and still are) under attack across the country.  Verbally and physically so couple the stress of the situation and the fact they had ZERO clue what his intentions were by approaching them and reaching out to them moving him out of the way was justified.  

 

 

Even more the reason they simply should have arrested him if they truly felt he was trying to take their weapons.  Seems like a great reason above and beyond curfew.  You are making little sense.  And again, there were 2 protesters in the vicinity, not a crowd.  They arrested the other guy.   Why couldn't they just have arrested Gugino?  You refuse to give me a reason.  Gugino was playing a stupid game, on that we agree.