Bills sign Josh Norman

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

Speaking for myself, I'm only comfortable signing guys who are consistently healthy and near their career best form (preferably pro-bowl caliber), and who are willing to sign short-term, team friendly deals.

Good luck with that approach.   Guys near their career best regularly get deals that aren't team friendly.  

 

But I get your point.   Before I began listening to Beane talk about his philosophy, I didn't see much point in signing guys on the back end of their careers, like Norman.   But Beane has a very clear philosophy.   Free agency is primarily for filling gaps.   Beane signed about ten free agent offensive linemen last year, and except for Morse, they all were journeymen at best.   Day after day, it was another ho hum guy.   And a bunch of them got cut.  With only a few exceptions, like Morse, he isn't going after guys coming off their rookie contracts and moving into their career best form.  That's not who he signs.  By and large, Beane wants to get his best players out of the draft.  

 

So, as I said, I get it, and I generally agreed with you.   But Beane's the GM of the team I root for, and he's doing it a different way.   So I roll with it.  

 

Chances are there will be ten corners in camp, and Norman may not make it.   If he makes it, it will have proved to be a good signing.   If he doesn't, well that's the way McBeane want it to work.  

[BillsFan17]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, you just ignore the logical arguments.    You say the last three or four years of data show he was really bad.   I posted data that showed he had the same number of interceptions in his first four years as in his last four, and he had about the same number of passes defended.   That's a logical argument suggesting he has not been 
"really really bad on the field."   But you ignore it and get all defensive.  

 

Plus, you and others ignore that this isn't a guy the Bills have signed to be a shut-down corner who plays the other teams' #1 guys.   This is a guy they've signed at least for depth and to have a shot at getting some substantial playing time.   This is a guy who has shown that he can play well in the defensive backfield scheme that McDermott teaches.   Those are logical arguments that make the signing look like it makes sense. 

 

You don't like Norman.  That's fine.  We're all entitled to our opinions.   That doesn't justify your getting all high and mighty and suggesting that there is no conceivable logic to the move.   There's plenty of logic.   You're either incapable of understanding it or unwilling to recognize it. 

 

 

1) Never judge a CB by their INTs. Plenty of top tier CBs never had a high volume of INTs. Mainly because teams respect them enough to not throw their way.

 

2) Teams will target our CB2 because Tre will essentially force them to. We saw Levi Wallace get exposed at times this year, for that exact reason. Yes Norman isn't going to be our lockdown corner, but that doesnt mean he can be void of ability.

 

3) Norman is years removed from McDermott's time in Carolina. A 26/27 year old, in his prime Norman is not the same as 32 year old Norman coming off of some of the worst football of his career.

 

I appreciate what Beane and McDermott have done. They have earned our trust, but they haven't exactly hit on every FA, and the deal given to Norman, has absolutely zero guaranteed staying power. For all we know, dude could be cut before the season.

 

I would love nothing more than for Norman to work out, ball out, be a stud, and help sure up that position, but to act like hes anything more than a HOPEFUL reclamation project is fooling ones self.

[LABILLBACKER]

47 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

This is a fair take.
I do not care for his mouth

He  was a Pro bowler for real

Played under McD for 4 years
Succked for Washington ( man coverage is an excuse at best) why did they bring him on then ?

 contract is #Beanesmart
as long as he i behind Wallace and perhaps KJ and play situational until he earns it.

 

not thrilled with Bills 1st move in FA

but thats okay

I'm just so sick & tired of the incessant Carolina connection.  Is Sean incapable of selecting a  player from anywhere else. 6 million for an aging declining cb is a little ridiculous. If you want to bury him as depth fine, but if he's cb3 we're in trouble. 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, BillsFan17 said:

1) Never judge a CB by their INTs. Plenty of top tier CBs never had a high volume of INTs. Mainly because teams respect them enough to not throw their way.

 

2) Teams will target our CB2 because Tre will essentially force them to. We saw Levi Wallace get exposed at times this year, for that exact reason. Yes Norman isn't going to be our lockdown corner, but that doesnt mean he can be void of ability.

 

3) Norman is years removed from McDermott's time in Carolina. A 26/27 year old, in his prime Norman is not the same as 32 year old Norman coming off of some of the worst football of his career.

 

I appreciate what Beane and McDermott have done. They have earned our trust, but they haven't exactly hit on every FA, and the deal given to Norman, has absolutely zero guaranteed staying power. For all we know, dude could be cut before the season.

 

I would love nothing more than for Norman to work out, ball out, be a stud, and help sure up that position, but to act like hes anything more than a HOPEFUL reclamation project is fooling ones self.

You may be right.   All I was doing was responding to a whining poster who said there is no logic behind the signing.   There's plenty of logic behind the signing.   And there's no risk.

 

If what you say turns out to be correct, the Bills will cut him and will have lost nothing. 

 

If he turns out to be someone who can contribute, then the Bills got a cornerback.   

 

Those are the two likeliest outcomes, so that suggests it's a good signing.   No downside, possible upside. 

3 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm just so sick & tired of the incessant Carolina connection.  Is Sean incapable of selecting a  player from anywhere else. 6 million for an aging declining cb is a little ridiculous.

How about Kevin Johnson, to name one right of the top, at the same position.

[BillsFan17]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

You may be right.   All I was doing was responding to a whining poster who said there is no logic behind the signing.   There's plenty of logic behind the signing.   And there's no risk.

 

If what you say turns out to be correct, the Bills will cut him and will have lost nothing. 

 

If he turns out to be someone who can contribute, then the Bills got a cornerback.   

 

Those are the two likeliest outcomes, so that suggests it's a good signing.   No downside, possible upside. 

I hear ya, and believe me, I really hope the guy turns it around. I hope that somehow Beane was right, and McDermott can rejuvenate the guy.

 

I mean, ..... I'm from Long Island, do you know the amount of texts I got minutes after the signing ragging on Beane and the Bills. How they p issed away six million on one of the worst corners in the league.

 

I think sometimes we take McDermott/Fraizer's D for granted and just assume we are always going to have a top unit. Problem is, we do have holes, and we need to fill them with talent and not just warm bodies.

 

If it wasnt for the name, and we saw the metrics over the last couple years, I highly doubt most would make the case that hed be worth while in this secondary.

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

 

If it wasnt for the name, and we saw the metrics over the last couple years, I highly doubt most would make the case that hed be worth while in this secondary.

True, but he has a name, and that name played some outstanding football in the system the Bills run on defense, so it isn't nuts.   He may very well prove to be more than a warm body. 

 

All we can do is wait and see.  

 

Mostly, I'm amused that people get so upset about these signings.   It's the kind of guys Beane signs all the time.   People should be used to it by now.  People went nuts when he signed Gore.   Gore was Singletary's mentor.   He was worth it for that reason alone.  

Edited March 10, 2020 by Shaw66

[Utah John]

Any player, just about, can look bad in a system that doesn't suit him, or with a bad coach.  Ref:  O.J. in his first year or two in the league was a major disappointment, because of the weak team around him and coaches with no clue how to use him.  After that, things got straightened out, and he was The Juice, the best player I've ever seen in person.  

 

Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer were both just so-so until they got here, and now they're a tremendous force.  Sometimes the system has to adjust to the players, and sometimes you have to get the right players to make the system work.

 

McBeane have a batting average well over .700.  I think they know what they're doing.

[Happy]

At first I thought, great, the Carolina crony pipeline is going strong.  Then I remember that if there is any area that McD knows, it is the defensive backfield.  Norman is a low cost/low risk acquisition.  They've brought in worse from Carolina in the past.

[Dopey]

51 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm just so sick & tired of the incessant Carolina connection.  Is Sean incapable of selecting a  player from anywhere else. 6 million for an aging declining cb is a little ridiculous. If you want to bury him as depth fine, but if he's cb3 we're in trouble. 

We brought in 3-4 new fa wrs, 2 new rbs via fa, essentially a new oline via fa. Kevin Johnson, jordan phillips etc. I lost track of how many came from Carolina.

 

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, Dopey said:

We brought in 3-4 new fa wrs, 2 new rbs via fa, essentially a new oline via fa. Kevin Johnson, jordan phillips etc. I lost track of how many came from Carolina.

 

2 players on the roster from Carolina including josh Norman 

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, BillsFan17 said:

I hear ya, and believe me, I really hope the guy turns it around. I hope that somehow Beane was right, and McDermott can rejuvenate the guy.

 

I mean, ..... I'm from Long Island, do you know the amount of texts I got minutes after the signing ragging on Beane and the Bills. How they p issed away six million on one of the worst corners in the league.

 

I think sometimes we take McDermott/Fraizer's D for granted and just assume we are always going to have a top unit. Problem is, we do have holes, and we need to fill them with talent and not just warm bodies.

 

If it wasnt for the name, and we saw the metrics over the last couple years, I highly doubt most would make the case that hed be worth while in this secondary.

I think your friends are hilarious. You either got a cheap corner or cut as Shaw said (they haven’t pissed anything away). He also got multiple offers and sounds like one may have been higher than our offer. 

 

Laugh at what their jets and giants are doing at CB. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by YattaOkasan

[Dopey]

20 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

2 players on the roster from Carolina including josh Norman 

Now that's an incessant Carolina connection right there.

[GreggTX]

M'eh. Could turn into a great move for depth. He's at least as good as Wallace right now. If he can stay at this level for a year it could be worth it.. They made it work for Frank Gore on a 1 year deal. Old coach. Who knows? His leadership is a plus.

Edited March 10, 2020 by GreggTX

[KD in CA]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

2 players on the roster from Carolina including josh Norman 

One for every 1000 dumb, unoriginal posts whining about Carolina.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Makes sense, 1 year deal is the way to go.

 

 

[BillsFan4]

5 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

 

Quote

What went wrong in Washington?

To understand where things went south for Norman last season, we have to start with how Washington used him, which was primarily in man coverage.

To begin understanding what went wrong with Norman, first we have to acknowledge how Washington used him last season. There were times the defense dropped back into zone coverage to give the offense a different look, but when Norman was on the field, they were usually asking their cornerbacks to go one-on-one. Norman was a star in McDermott’s zone-based defense with the Panthers and hit a massive payday in Washington as a result. His new team hoped the 6-foot, 200-pound cornerback could do more in a man-coverage scheme and that didn’t pay off. While watching the film, we charted every time Norman’s assignment drew a target and what coverage Washington was in, to see if it was a matter of a player in the wrong defensive scheme. Predictably, his statistics in man coverage were not strong.

 

Quote

What are Norman’s strengths?

Norman certainly has his weaknesses, but much of that was due to Washington playing him in the wrong scheme for his skill set. When dropping back into zone coverage, Norman showed a different sort of comfortability with the defense.

He’s at his best when he’s playing off the line of scrimmage and does a half-turn to face the quarterback. Norman’s ability to see the entire field and instincts to get into the right position to assist his teammates are his biggest strengths. There were times last season when Norman saw a teammate in peril, about to lose his assignment with no one deep to make a play and he left his zone to take away the deep ball. It would leave an underneath route for an easy reception and first down, but that’s a better result than a potential touchdown.

 

He still has good ball skills, not only to break up passes with his long arms (32 3/4-inches), but also to come down with an interception when given the opportunity. In zone coverage, Norman is bound to have more opportunities to make plays on the ball.

Norman also does well to see deceptive plays (pitches, screens, reverses, throwback reverses) coming before they happen, which relinquishes him from his zone to get in position to make a tackle. Norman is also a willing and accomplished tackler who routinely gets his hands dirty by assisting his teammates in bringing down the ball carrier. His explosiveness to stick with speedy receivers may have waned at this point, but he can still fire to the ball carrier to try to make the tackle.

 

There are also several examples of Norman being a good communicator mid-play in zone coverage, especially when the offense gives a late motion ahead of the snap. He processed the change, communicated with a teammate to switch responsibilities at the last minute and got in the proper position to thwart a big play. His football intelligence is one of his best attributes and what makes him such an attractive option at this point in his career.

(continued in link)

 

He also goes into some detail about how there were questionable defensive play calls and numerous blown assignments by teammates (especially when the defense played zone coverage) and Norman would recognize a teammate was out of position and in trouble and try to help cover for them, forint him to leave his assignment and allow a short/mid gain to prevent a home run play.

 

 

[BillsFan4]

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/03/5-reasons-signing-josh-norman-was-smart-move-for-buffalo-bills.html

5 reasons signing Josh Norman was smart move for Buffalo Bills

 

 

 

[Turk71]

  What is Kevin Johnson expected to get in free agency? I thought he was pretty good this year and wonder if they will try to bring him back. He is only 27 and was actually one of the better cbs in the league last year. Norman was literally one of the very worst. Is Johnson gonna get paid more than 8 mil a year? 

Their stats when targeted last season:

 

Johnson: 79.8 passer rtg, 6.8 yds/tgt,

0 td allowed, 44 targets, 59% comp. 0 int.

 

Norman: 129.0 passer rtg, 9.7 yds/tgt, 

7 td allowed, 46 targets, 67% comp. 1 int.

 

Johnson knows the defense and has already shown he can do his job well. I am hoping the Norman signing is more of an insurance and not the main plan.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Turk71

[atlbillsfan1975]

On 3/10/2020 at 5:02 AM, Turk71 said:

  What is Kevin Johnson expected to get in free agency? I thought he was pretty good this year and wonder if they will try to bring him back. He is only 27 and was actually one of the better cbs in the league last year. Norman was literally one of the very worst. Is Johnson gonna get paid more than 8 mil a year? 

Their stats when targeted last season:

 

Johnson: 79.8 passer rtg, 6.8 yds/tgt,

0 td allowed, 44 targets, 59% comp. 0 int.

 

Norman: 129.0 passer rtg, 9.7 yds/tgt, 

7 td allowed, 46 targets, 67% comp. 1 int.

 

Johnson knows the defense and has already shown he can do his job well. I am hoping the Norman signing is more of an insurance and not the main plan.

I think the Bills ultimately want to find a young player on an inexpensive contract to play opposite of Tre. Tre is probably going to get one of the biggest deals for a CB when he does get the extension. I don’t think the Bills want to have $20+ mil invested in two corners. 
Johnson will seek multiple years and want money of a mid range corner. I got to think that is some where in the $8 mil mark. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by atlbillsfan1975

[Rochesterfan]

9 hours ago, Turk71 said:

He will be turning 34 in the season after next and will have made over 70 million dollars. I'm sure he will be really motivated to land another big contract(sarcasm font).

   According to some reports he is overweight, slow and sluggish. Let's see if he can pass the physical, make it through training camp and still play football at a decent level before thinking he will be shooting for another contract at 34. 

  Enough with the McBeane know him best because they coached him. They also coached Benjamin, Vontae, etc. The last time they had Norman was five seasons ago when he was 27/28. Like I said, hopefully not much in guarantees in case he's toast.

  Hopefully the change of scenery and the reunion with McBeane recharges him and it works out great.

 

First - get your information correct - McDermott never coached Vontae (Miami/Indy) - so they only had minor info on him and much like this it was a low risk deal.  Did him not being there the rest of the year hurt the Bills?

 

Second - yes they knew Benjamin- did they give him a contract?  They made a trade because they were in a playoff push and whether or not that trade helped - they pushed to the playoffs.  So the trade was not a bad move.  The Panthers picked up his 5th year option - so when he came in the Bills had him for the remainder of that year and the next.  The Bills opted to see if playing on that last year would motivate him and when it didn’t - he was cut mid season.  
 

So it looks like - yes they knew him and when he did not give what they needed - they got rid of him.  Just like the option for Norman.  Especially as the report has 0 guaranteed money before the season - what is the risk?

 

Can you also show these reports that he is currently slow and overweight and sluggish?  I have not seen anything since the midpoint of last year where a poorly coached Washington was struggling and decided to “bench” him because of play.  That entire team was unmotivated and played sluggish- not sure I blame it on Josh.