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NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

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6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If you don't fire him, at least bring in someone else to call plays and make the offensive game plans.  If this doesn't happen, are there smarter people making these decisions?

So when the Bills offense executes then Allen and the players are good. If they dont execute and make mistakes then Daboll sucks? I have questioned some play calling and I dont like going conservative with Gore. Lets face it if Allen hits a few more passes or playmakers dont drop some balls, the Bills win one or two more games this season. 

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10 hours ago, kbarrettb said:

Seems the Bills like him more than some message board poster who has no idea what’s actually happening behind the scenes. Stick to being a keyboard coordinator and let the professionals do their jobs. 

 

 

To be fair the same was said here about Dick Jauron going into year 3 in Buffalo.........and he even got off to a good start and got an extension that year.

 

Bad decisions happen even when there should have been enough data to know better.

 

But at least Jauron had had one good season as a HC(in Chicago) to go with the 6 losing ones.

 

Daboll hasn't produced a good offense at any of his 4 NFL OC jobs.

 

All bad.

 

I think he's clearly a really good X's and O's guy but his play calling and the lack of rhythm and tempo in his offense is a problem.

 

Ultimately the interest in him could just be the familiarity and experience with the Patriots offensive system and in the case of Cleveland the fact that DePodesta was a big McDermott fan.

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19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I also think it depends what the Bills number 1 goal is at this point. I believe it is actually to develop Josh Allen into a bona fide Franchise QB. Do that and the Championships will follow. If the question is then "Does retaining Daboll give Josh Allen the best chance of remaining on that trajectory?" then I think yes is the answer.

If that is your goal, then you are asking the right question.  Personally I don't know the answer to that question. 

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8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Wonder if Daboll wanted to pursue it.

 

 

That was my first thought.

 

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

 

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

 

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

 

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

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17 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

All I am saying is that in your option 3 here, it is a judgment call, and too many fans act as if it's a simple matter. Your "universe of prospects" formulation is ludicrous. If you compare ANY coach against the "universe of prospects" then you will fire him and hire somebody else. 

 

There are many factors in evaluating a coach. It's not as simple as you present it here. Unless a coach is completely incompetent, it's a judgment call. 

 

I know a lot of Bills fans believe that Daboll is hopelessly incompetent, but they are wrong. 

 

I don't believe that Daboll is incompetent.

I see plays left on the field through execution that should reasonably be expected - a missed block in space, two OLmen tripping on each other, a throw to an open receiver in space not taken, a throw made and not caught.

 

But the overall sequence and selection of plays, and sometimes the players on the field, still bothers me.  I can't verbalize what I see, I don't know enough or have the terminology, I  just see that sometimes it's off kilter.  There's a play selected on 3rd down that should have been a 1st or 2nd down play.  There are guys outside running routes who are not our best players.  Etc.

 

Maybe Daboll is trying to be clever because of gaps in the personnel available to him, and if there's an upgrade he'll quit that, I dunno.

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10 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

People like to assume a new OC would be better for Allen but the opposite could also be true. If most of us agree that Josh is developing pretty nicely so far, why do people want to mess with that? I’ve been a Bills fan (and a sports fan in general) long enough to know that the next hire isn’t always automatically better than the previous one. 

 

But Rex!

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1 hour ago, Chaos said:

 

I am not sure the question that needs to be asked is "will someone else be better"?

The first question that needs to be asked is "Will Daboll be good enough to lead make the offense championship caliber?"  If the answer is yes, then the questions stop there
If the answer is no, then the next question is "Is my goal really too win the championship?".  If the answer to that question is yes, then the next question Among the hundreds of college head coaches, NFL position coaches and ex-NFL head coaches and OC, is there someone who MIGHT be good enough to build a championship offense.  If the answer to tha t question is yes, then hire that person.  If the answer to that question is no, then you have have to find a new goal other than winning the championship. 

In the words of the fictional but brilliant Reese Bobby "If you ain't first, you're last."    sidenote, Mr. Bobby later recanted saying he must have been high when he made the initial statement. 

Personally, I don’t think that’s the question to be asking right now. IMO That’s like skipping from step 2 all the way to the last step. 

 

For me, the question is, is Daboll the guy to develop Josh Allen into the franchise QB we think (hope) he can be? And so far, I’d say Daboll seems to be developing Josh Allen pretty nicely. I don’t want to mess with that under the assumption someone else might do a better job. My Grandpa used to always say “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”. 

 

Until Josh Allen develops, the Bills aren’t going to be competing for championships. 

 

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I also think it depends what the Bills number 1 goal is at this point. I believe it is actually to develop Josh Allen into a bona fide Franchise QB. Do that and the Championships will follow. If the question is then "Does retaining Daboll give Josh Allen the best chance of remaining on that trajectory?" then I think yes is the answer.

Yes, exactly this. 

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8 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

So when the Bills offense executes then Allen and the players are good. If they dont execute and make mistakes then Daboll sucks? I have questioned some play calling and I dont like going conservative with Gore. Lets face it if Allen hits a few more passes or playmakers dont drop some balls, the Bills win one or two more games this season. 

 

I'm not saying the players failed to execute on some of the plays.  I agree with your last sentence, as well.  My problem is that Daboll rolled out an offense that cannot effective be run with a rookie or second year QB, combined with almost a completely new group of players.  Start off simple and let the team grow into the offense; also let Josh be Josh, make the offense friendlier to his strengths, not what Tom Brady would do.  It appears that Daboll threw too much at Josh too soon, and made him into something he's not.  John Brown made comments earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been a part of.  So some of it is execution, though I think more is Daboll taking too much of an academic view of the offense.

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16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That was my first thought.

 

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

 

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

 

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

 

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

 

Yup.  These requests typically don't come out of the ether.  Another scenario is that he encouraged Judge to make the request because he was genuinely wondering whether/how much he's valued at OBD...

Edited by Coach Tuesday
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11 hours ago, SCBills said:

At some point, even the haters of Daboll might start to wonder why teams are interested in him?...

 

 

It's kind of like the Flutie haters, the guy could do a bunch of things to advance the team & all the debby downers would find something about them to bi**h about !! 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I would guess it is the Patriot and Belichick connection

I would guess that the rest of the NFL was amazed he was able to get the production he did out of Allen, Beasley, Brown et al. when everyone was new except for Josh & Dion. I hope he does get a HC job next year not because I want him to go, but because it likely means the offense took another leap.

Edited by 416BillsFan

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3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm not saying the players failed to execute on some of the plays.  I agree with your last sentence, as well.  My problem is that Daboll rolled out an offense that cannot effective be run with a rookie or second year QB, combined with almost a completely new group of players.  Start off simple and let the team grow into the offense; also let Josh be Josh, make the offense friendlier to his strengths, not what Tom Brady would do.  It appears that Daboll threw too much at Josh too soon, and made him into something he's not.  John Brown made comments earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been a part of.  So some of it is execution, though I think more is Daboll taking too much of an academic view of the offense.

I get what you are saying. I think Daboll overthought some situations with weird playcalls. I think they should have kept using Singletary more through the playoffs. Taking both years Allen has in this system there is good growth from year one to year two. I think the Oline is improved but still struggled at times. I am not willing to throw Daboll out the door just yet. I would like to see what he can come up with a few more playmakers. I think the screen game needs to improve big time next season. Bottom line is that I think it was more on the players not executing rather than Dabolls offense as to the reason the Bills were not scoring more than 20 points a game. It also comes down to offensive talent. The Bills did not have one game changing offensive player. 

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2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm not saying the players failed to execute on some of the plays.  I agree with your last sentence, as well.  My problem is that Daboll rolled out an offense that cannot effective be run with a rookie or second year QB, combined with almost a completely new group of players.  Start off simple and let the team grow into the offense; also let Josh be Josh, make the offense friendlier to his strengths, not what Tom Brady would do.  It appears that Daboll threw too much at Josh too soon, and made him into something he's not.  John Brown made comments earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been a part of.  So some of it is execution, though I think more is Daboll taking too much of an academic view of the offense.

 

 

He definitely had a lot on his plate, but I thought he handled it pretty well. I felt like he continued to improve all season, and I kind of like that he wasn’t babied. The Bills weren’t expected to compete for a championship this past season. It was really the first year of the “build” phase of the re-build. 

 

So why not try to develop Josh into a complete QB and force him to learn/grow, instead of running some gimmicky offense that only caters to what he already does well and doesn’t force the same type of growth?

 

Those gimmicky offenses always get figured out. Then teams start taking away what that QB does well (Lamar in the playoffs for ex) and now that QB has to start learning how to do more of the things that he wasn’t as good at in order to adapt+overcome. 

 

So I guess I just look at it as Josh getting a head start on that process. Why not try to develop him into complete QB now instead of later? I guess you could argue that he wasn’t ready for it, but I don’t think it hurt his development at all. If anything, I feel like it helped it. 

 

Im not saying I agree with everything Daboll did or anything, and I’d like to see more of what Josh does best mixed in. But overall I’ve been pretty happy with the way Josh is developing under Daboll. 

 

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17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That was my first thought.

 

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

 

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

 

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

 

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

 

All of this might be true. Equally the Giants are probably second only to the Browns in terms of dysfunctional mess of a franchise at the moment. Making a request to hire a guy they haven't spoken to sounds right up their street.

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1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Yup.  These requests typically don't come out of the ether.  Another scenario is that he asked Judge to make the request because he was genuinely wondering whether/how much he's valued at OBD...

Typically it is just the HC providing a list of OC candidates he would be interested in, back when he first interviewed, to whoever is running the search and requests are made to any still under contract, others like Jason Garrett are just brought in. 

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7 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm not saying the players failed to execute on some of the plays.  I agree with your last sentence, as well.  My problem is that Daboll rolled out an offense that cannot effective be run with a rookie or second year QB, combined with almost a completely new group of players.  Start off simple and let the team grow into the offense; also let Josh be Josh, make the offense friendlier to his strengths, not what Tom Brady would do.  It appears that Daboll threw too much at Josh too soon, and made him into something he's not.  John Brown made comments earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been a part of.  So some of it is execution, though I think more is Daboll taking too much of an academic view of the offense.

 

 

 

For some reason.......with Brian Daboll a large group of Bills fans actively choose to ignore the basic tenet that a good coach builds the system around the players.

 

That has not been the case here.

 

It's intriguing to me that by throwing a lot at Allen it could make him a better QB in the long run...........and hopefully it's a LONG run...........but it feels forced to say the least.

 

There is no point in drafting a Josh Allen to make him a game manager.

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10 hours ago, SCBills said:

At some point, even the haters of Daboll might start to wonder why teams are interested in him?...

 

The first team to have an interest in Daboll were the Carolina Panthers who fired their HC Ron Rivera on Dec 3rd 2019. It was leaked after the firing that the Panthers had an interest in Badoll probably because of the run the Bills made by beating the Dolphins 37-20, next beating the Broncos 20-3 and finally against Dallas on Thanksgiving day. @Kirby Jackson who posted in a thread about it.

 

That Cowboys defeat on national TV made the NFL world stand up and take a long look at Buffalo, Josh Allen. And Allen looked brilliant in that game going 20 of 25 for 259 yards 2 passing TDs, one rushing TD, he had a rating of 120.7. 

 

Knowing the strong Carolina connection I wonder if the Panthers new owner had targeted Daboll as his next HC at that time. There was probably still interest after the losses to the Ravens and Patriots. Its my thinking that the epic meltdown on offense to the Texans after going up 16-0 and all the teams lost interest. Carolina didn't even bother with an interview after all. 

 

After how this season ended for Buffalo on offense it really makes me question as to why this HC/GM want to keep Daboll at all. Beane blaming himself, really? After all the upgrades to the line, receiver corps, future star RB in Devin Singletary. Nine of 11 starters upgraded on offense?

Perhaps he felt he let the team down in not acquiring Emmanuel Sanders? Jadeveon Clowney? AJ Green? The one guy I'm glad turned down Buffalo was the head case that went to the Raiders, Patriots in AB. Thank the Lord! 

 

Could Amari Cooper be in his sights should Dallas not re sign him?

 

Anyway, 2020 should be better if Duke Williams gets a full shot as a starting WR in training camp. Also, lets not forget about RB Christian Wade who looked brilliant in pre season last year. 

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24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That was my first thought.

 

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

 

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

 

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

 

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

 

I know backdoor discussions happen all the time, but is it "legal" for Judge to even have that discussion with Daboll? Isnt that tampering?

 

Also, why all the stretching to create these dramatic situations?

 

IMO, the Giants asked the Bills, McD talked to Daboll and they discussed why the Bills would be denying the request, and everyone moves on like adults.

11 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Yup.  These requests typically don't come out of the ether.  Another scenario is that he encouraged Judge to make the request because he was genuinely wondering whether/how much he's valued at OBD...

 

Again, yall are really trying hard to create drama where there most likely isnt any.

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19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I know backdoor discussions happen all the time, but is it "legal" for Judge to even have that discussion with Daboll? Isnt that tampering?

 

Also, why all the stretching to create these dramatic situations?

 

IMO, the Giants asked the Bills, McD talked to Daboll and they discussed why the Bills would be denying the request, and everyone moves on like adults.

 

Again, yall are really trying hard to create drama where there most likely isnt any.

Judge is not allowed to pursue any coaches under contract so would not have called Daboll - in fact, everything goes through the Bills. They would be the ones to make him aware. The only other way to have a “discussion” about him for the job  would be agent to agent. 

Edited by YoloinOhio

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12 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Why deny them go ahead and give him away

 

My guess is they'd rather have him in the AFC, to improve the Bills competitive odds...:bag:

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5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Judge is not allowed to pursue any coaches under contract so would not have called Daboll - in fact, everything goes through the Bills. They would be the ones to make him aware. The only other way to have a “discussion” about him for the job  would be agent to agent. 

 

I don't think that's at all how it works.  These guys talk to each other all the time and a coach is rarely going to have on his list someone who he hasn't spoken to (directly, or indirectly via an agent or mutual contact) before putting them on their prospect list.  Too much is at stake for a coach to do that without any kind of assurances or checks.

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

That was my first thought.

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

Interesting points but not sure it sums to that.  Counterpoints from each side:

-There are all sorts of reasons to ask for permission to interview a guy who is not available - one is PR, to make it look like you're conducting a wider search than you really are

-It's a small world.  Face-saving for Daboll to tell his pal Joe, "be happy to interview with you, but you need my team's permission".  Beane or McDermott then get to be the bad guys who say "Nope, Blocked" instead of Daboll snubbing his buddy and maybe breeding bad feelings that could come back to bite him.

 

If Daboll sincerely wanted to make that lateral move, it's hard for me to imagine that McDermott wouldn't say "you want off the bus, don't let the door hitcha where the Good Lord splitcha" if Daboll came to him and said "It's been great, Sean, but I really want to go work with my pal Joe Judge now"

 

I'm sure there had to be friction about how the season went/ended. 

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1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If you don't fire him, at least bring in someone else to call plays and make the offensive game plans.  If this doesn't happen, are there smarter people making these decisions?

Hopefully your first sentence was a stab at sarcasm. 

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9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It's intriguing to me that by throwing a lot at Allen it could make him a better QB in the long run...........and hopefully it's a LONG run...........but it feels forced to say the least.

 

There is no point in drafting a Josh Allen to make him a game manager.

 

I genuinely had these thoughts during the seasons. Your first point has some challenges associated with it:

 

1.) Have Allen get more reps against live defenses

2.) This could be one of the reasons we (IMO) stubbornly kept playing Ford at RT

 

Are they willing to sacrifice winning a game and even costing ourselves "the season" in the name of development?

 

3.) Still doesn't explain the reliance on Gore and Yeldon being inactive once it was very apparent Gore was toast - Why take Devin out of the playoff game for Gore? It doesn't help his development

4.) With the season on the line in Houston why the hell are DiMarco and Lee Smith out there? Neither of them are going to make a play for Allen, rightfully so hero ball Josh came out in that instance...

 

I get that it is a fine line and where you could maybe make a case for development over the long run -  we do stupid things that fly in the face of that as well.

 

Your last point I don't think anyone can argue about that. Making Allen play like Brady is not who he is and is a skill/scheme mismatch. But to a degree it makes sense if they are developing him for the long haul, since those are areas of weakness that he does need experience with. Again, we didn't really use what Josh is good at that much as well (conjecture as I don't feel like going to look up particular stats on plays)

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

For some reason.......with Brian Daboll a large group of Bills fans actively choose to ignore the basic tenet that a good coach builds the system around the players.

 

That has not been the case here.

 

It's intriguing to me that by throwing a lot at Allen it could make him a better QB in the long run...........and hopefully it's a LONG run...........but it feels forced to say the least.

 

There is no point in drafting a Josh Allen to make him a game manager.

Would you explain what Daboll should have done differently with this personnel?

 

The Bills just didn't seem to be able to put up large numbers of points. It looked to me that they needed more accuracy in the passing game and more talent at wide receiver.

 

I am not saying that you are wrong, just wondering what should have been done if you agree that these 2 issues were problems.

Edited by Bill from NYC
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