Ethan in Cleveland Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I liked trade at the time and I’m not going to go back on my words. I don’t fault Beane for this move much. As others have said WR group was terrible. It still counts against him in his total evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm So Happy for You that you have no issues with the trade, Phil. But I'm curious by what metric you feel Benjamin was the best WR on the Bills? In 2017, Deonte Thompson had more YPG. Jordan Matthews had a higher catch %. Zay Jones and Clay had more targets. In 2018, Bob Foster and Zay Jones had more YPG. Every other WR who saw playing time had a higher catch %, including Zay Jones and Bob Foster. Zay Jones had more targets. Look, let's not polish a turd. McDermott and Beane's roster decisions WRT WR blew chunks their first two years, and it goes far beyond drafting Zay Jones and trading a 3rd for Benjamin. Other teams bring in late round draft picks who are more productive. Brown, Beasley, and Knox (if he LOOKS THE BALL IN and stops butter-fingering the bunnies) look like good adds. Come up with a good tall possession receiver and I'm all in. First, I’m focusing on 2017 and the moment that they made the trade. I’ll agree it was not “good” in the sense the returns from KB didn’t equal what they gave up. This is especially true in 2018. When you release a player mid season that you traded so, that’s probably not a good deal. My point is that the move to make the trade was actually a good idea and it’s not as lopsided as you make it seem to be. Hap, I swear, you must work for PFF because now you are using irrelevant numbers to push narratives that doesn’t exist. Using Jordan Matthews’ catch percentage is moot because he was on IR before Benjamin even joined the team. And he played about 4 games that season. So huge swing and a miss there. Also bringing in Clay’s number are again irrelevant because again, we’re talking the WR position. Not TE. I don’t think that any defensive coordinator could watch Benjamin and Thompson and honestly say that Deonte Thompson was a better receiver. KB was better that season, had more ability, and more experience. Don’t pretend that fans and the media didn’t think so either, because there were several articles written questioning whether he was a #1 WR. That’s not saying much, but again his specialty was the 50/50 ball and he had a QB that didn’t throw those passes. So again using catch % is a faulty metric given those circumstances. He did love throwing short passes to Zay Jones, especially in garbage time (and there was a lot garbage time for opposing teams), which accounts for a higher catch percentages. Also while the Bills WR’s that season didn’t scare anyone, it’s clear that most of the attention in the secondary went to Benjamin. They doubled or out their best player on him which again effected his productivity. Foster was a rookie in 2018, and again I’m talking about the 2017 season. Your “polishing a turd” metaphor is A. Disgusting and B. shortsighted. You can find fault with who the team put on the field at WR but you also have to remember they were turning over the roster. They couldn’t address every position and they knew that 2018 would be a step back. I guess you are holding it against Beane that late round picks like Austin Prohel or Ray Ray McLeod didnt pan out? That’s just silly. Here’s my question to you - if the Bills don’t make the trade for KB, do they still win enough games to make the playoffs? Because I don’t think they do. Edited December 31, 2019 by Phil The Thrill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 My take is that it was a move that could have turned out good but instead turned out bad. Its not like the guy didn't have production before coming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Scott7975 said: My take is that it was a move that could have turned out good but instead turned out bad. Its not like the guy didn't have production before coming here. Yep I can agree that. Going back to my original post - this is why I don’t feel the trade was the disaster some fans pretend it was 2 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: I was never a big fan of this signing. Every time I saw Benjamin and Croom on the field it made me sick. So when this trade was made in October 2017 the Bills - had not gone to playoffs in 17 years - were 5-1 for the first time in years - went “all in “ to make the playoffs but didn’t have to deal a first or second round asset for a player with decent production and a lot of potential. You’re telling me, as this time you didn’t like this move and were cool with Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Deonte Thompson at WR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 14 hours ago, MJS said: Not sure the two are connected in any way. Daboll hasn't produced good offenses for the Bills. Maybe there's a coordinator out there who can. They are connected because they are both counterintuitive to winning. Not surprised you couldn't recognize that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said: They are connected because they are both counterintuitive to winning. Not surprised you couldn't recognize that ? Getting a better coordinator is counterintuitive to winning? Let me be clear, I don't really mind sticking with Daboll myself. I'm on the fence with him. But I can definitely understand those fans who want a better offense and think Daboll is a big reason why the offense isn't humming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 minute ago, MJS said: Getting a better coordinator is counterintuitive to winning? Let me be clear, I don't really mind sticking with Daboll myself. I'm on the fence with him. But I can definitely understand those fans who want a better offense and think Daboll is a big reason why the offense isn't humming. Wishing to get rid of the coordinator who has done an outstanding job developing your #7 overall QB in his 2nd season is counterintuitive to winning, yes. Kelvin Benjamin was absolute trash and a waste of a draft pick. The team cut him mid-year the following year. Counterintuitive to winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 While Beane got fleeced by Carolina, he reciprocated the fleecing to Cleveland so it all worked out in the end? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 He won’t be perfect But this was a major miss on a guy he should’ve known well. the 3rd isn’t huge but the cap and more importantly the opportunity cost of getting someone else hurt a bit. Not the end of the world but a minor miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Yep I can agree that. Going back to my original post - this is why I don’t feel the trade was the disaster some fans pretend it was So when this trade was made in October 2017 the Bills - had not gone to playoffs in 17 years - were 5-1 for the first time in years - went “all in “ to make the playoffs but didn’t have to deal a first or second round asset for a player with decent production and a lot of potential. You’re telling me, as this time you didn’t like this move and were cool with Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Deonte Thompson at WR I didn't like Benjamin in the draft, his size was the only thing he had going for him. He was like a TE/WR tweener, like in the mold of Croom who I also think is worthless. I was not happy with our WR's at that time but I knew Benjamin was not going to improve our WR core. Edited December 31, 2019 by Call_Of_Ktulu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Rico said: Bad trade, but I had no problem with it at the time. Good thing is that it didn’t take too long for the Bills to cut their losses and move on. This is the most important thing. Keeping a loser around for 3 years because of his sunk cost was clearly no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livinginthepast Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 At the time it seemed like a mild risk for a significant reward. Nobody could have foreseen how useless Benjamin was and how bad his attitude seemed to be. In the end it cost us a 3rd round pick and we cut our losses on KB pretty quick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal2dagame Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said: At the time it seemed like a mild risk for a significant reward. Nobody could have foreseen how useless Benjamin was and how bad his attitude seemed to be. In the end it cost us a 3rd round pick and we cut our losses on KB pretty quick. For sure at the time of the trade it looked good. After seeing him play, it looked real bad. If it had worked out even a little better, the trade could have had good value to get a big bodied wr. Instead, we got a slob of a player with a big case of the dropsies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcampbell104 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 it was a good move to get a big number one receiver for only a third round pick, it did not turn out right, but i think it was worth the pick to try and do it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, tcampbell104 said: it was a good move to get a big number one receiver for only a third round pick, it did not turn out right, but i think it was worth the pick to try and do it. Glad to see there are honest, smart people here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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