The fake kneel down before the half

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Definitely NOT the same as spiking, spike is still a full blown play with the outcome in the balance. Victory formation is a gentleman's agreement and Harbaugh took it upon himself to piss all over it...would expect him to know better but guess not.

Except you missed a key part.  This was NOT in any way shape or form a victory formation.  Can’t have a victory at halftime ?

 

Game was nearing halftime, not the end of the game.  I mean this isn’t a pop Warner game at a church.  

 

It was a close game and a battle...offense should take every opportunity to surprise for a big play to either score or get into scoring position to add some points before half.

 

[Just in Atlanta]

Beyond bush. Skeezy and dangerous. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Except you missed a key part.  This was NOT in any way shape or form a victory formation.  Can’t have a victory at halftime ?

 

Game was nearing halftime, not the end of the game.  I mean this isn’t a pop Warner game at a church.  

 

It was a close game and a battle...offense should take every opportunity to surprise for a big play to either score or get into scoring position to add some points before half.

 

Absolutely 100% victory formation

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Absolutely 100% victory formation

NOPE.  You can’t have a Victory at halftime.  It’s called “victory formation” when you’re kneeling to win.  
 

AT HALFTIME...you’re still doing everything you can to win.  Sorry bud, you’re way out there on this one.  All good

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[IDBillzFan]

20 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

It only happened because McClappy ***** up on clock management yet again, calling the TO with 30 seconds left, then kicking the FG instead of going for it.  That's all on McD.

 

One thing you can count on after a Bills loss: the McClappy fans put down their sippy cup jump into action.

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

Just now, IDBillzFan said:

 

One thing you can count on after a Bills loss: the McClappy fans put down their sippy cup jump into action.

 

 

 

I resemble that remark.  I said this at the time in the GDT thread, so I put my sippy cup down during the game.  If you're gonna insult me, get it right.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

NOPE.  You can’t have a Victory at halftime.  It’s called “victory formation” when you’re kneeling to win.  
 

AT HALFTIME...you’re still doing everything you can to win.  Sorry bud, you’re way out there on this one.  All good

I am using victory formation as interchangeable with kneel down. In such formations it's generally agreed upon there will be no rush to prevent unnecessary injury.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This isn’t all directed at your reply, but others too.

 

My question is why is it an issue?   
 

I mean it’s literally the entire job of the offense to fool the defense on every single play.  That’s why you make sure your defense is alert and takes no plays off.  If the offenses sees a chance to get a big play and maybe get a score or get into scoring position in a tight game, then they should do it. 
 

The complaining on this by so many is comical to me.  If McD did this and we got an extra FG or a TD, and it was the difference in the game, everyone here would be crowning him COY.

 

This reminds me of when people complained in 2007 that the Pats were scoring too much.  You don’t like it, play better.  These are grown men being paid a gazillion dollars to play a game and for the purpose of winning games.  Fans get so sensitive as if it’s 8 year old kids playing out there.  
 

Bottom line:  Don’t take plays off and you got nothing to worry about.  Treat every play seriously. I mean this wasn’t a victory formation, the game was very much in question as it was only half time.  You better be ready for fake spikes, fake kneels, fake punts, etc.  

 

Really shocked at the complaining on this play.  Kudos to Harbaugh for trying to catch us sleeping and maybe steal a late score.  

 

Because the convention is that kneel downs are uncontested plays. If the offense can suddenly fake on a kneel down then why can't a defense suddenly blitz a kneel down and then you have players who are not set to protect themselves getting hit by 300lb guys. Then it is a player safety issue. I just think safety wise it is a dangerous precedent to set. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because the convention is that kneel downs are uncontested plays. If the offense can suddenly fake on a kneel down then why can't a defense suddenly blitz a kneel down and then you have players who are not set to protect themselves getting hit by 300lb guys. Then it is a player safety issue. I just think safety wise it is a dangerous precedent to set. 

I am certain you put 100 NFL players in a room 90 of em are going to say that is bush league stuff

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I am certain you put 100 NFL players in a room 90 of em are going to say that is bush league stuff

 

Agree. They are all for playing hard but not on a play where they are not set to protect themselves. That is how injuries happen. 

[Alphadawg7]

57 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I am using victory formation as interchangeable with kneel down. In such formations it's generally agreed upon there will be no rush to prevent unnecessary injury.

That’s victory formation at end of game.  All bets are off when game is still in play.

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because the convention is that kneel downs are uncontested plays. If the offense can suddenly fake on a kneel down then why can't a defense suddenly blitz a kneel down and then you have players who are not set to protect themselves getting hit by 300lb guys. Then it is a player safety issue. I just think safety wise it is a dangerous precedent to set. 

Teams do blitz kneel downs.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

That’s victory formation at end of game.  All bets are off when game is still in play.

 

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that lining up w/8 men on LOS, no wideouts, two FB next to QB under center and HB 7 yards deep is known colloquially as the 'victory formation' regardless of when it may occur in the game.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Teams do blitz kneel downs.

 

When? 

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that lining up w/8 men on LOS, no wideouts, two FB next to QB under center and HB 7 yards deep is known colloquially as the 'victory formation' regardless of when it may occur in the game.

I’m sure I don’t have to tell you when lining up to spike the ball that the QB doesn’t actually have to spike the ball and it’s the defenders job to be ready for a fake too.

 

I mean you gotta stop calling it a victory formation, it was not.  
 

ITS LITERALLY THE OFFENSES JOB TO CONEAL THE PLAY ON EVERY SINGLE SNAP OF FOOTBALL.   (Not yelling, emphasizing). 
 

It’s the defenses job to be ready on every single play.  Trick plays are fair game and their ability to work comes from NOT EXPECTING THEM.

 

Its just ridiculous to whine about this.  These are grown men playing a game for millions of dollars for a living. 
 

Again, all caps was not me yelling, just emphasizing those statements.  It’s all good, but I totally disagree with the outrage on this play.  It’s just silly. 
 

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When? 

You haven’t been paying attention.  There were several incidents the last couple seasons.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Reed83HOF]

Had no problem with it, I hated leaving time on the clock that even allowed them a chance. I would have done the same damn thing

[Boca BIlls]

23 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Did not like that move by Harbaugh. By faking the kneel down you invite defenses to do start doing things like schiano’s buccaneers back in the day. 

It was a genius thing to do TBH. You are trying to win not play "friendship ball"

 

Mike Tomlin has done similar things which is a sign of good Coaching.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Boca BIlls

[Say When...]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You haven’t been paying attention.  There were several incidents the last couple seasons.

 

I remember Schiano doing it but then being grudge ****** out of it because it was bush and considered a player safety issue but with all the football i watch i haven't seen it since then.

 

if i were to be honest i think that's the only formation i'd consider 'protected' for many reasons but as @GunnerBill stated more importantly player, and potentially in this case the Refs safety (one almost got caught up in it).

 

if I'm tomlin, Kitchens, and whomever the 3rd team they play + playoffs i got 120% full out blitz and pile on Lamar, turnabout is fair play here.  what will be interesting is if there's late hit calls, hard part is actually seeing the knee hit and the whistle blow.

 

anyone hear a whistle on that play?  even the refs weren't prepared.

[OZBILLS]

I like it. Big fan of shenanigans 

[Augie]

23 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Legal but BUSH!

 

 

Kinda reminds me of a certain coach in New England. Where’s the “legal”  line? I’ll get as close as I can, and only step over it when I think you aren’t looking!  

 

 

. 

 

.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Augie

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I’m sure I don’t have to tell you when lining up to spike the ball that the QB doesn’t actually have to spike the ball and it’s the defenders job to be ready for a fake too.

 

I mean you gotta stop calling it a victory formation, it was not.  
 

ITS LITERALLY THE OFFENSES JOB TO CONEAL THE PLAY ON EVERY SINGLE SNAP OF FOOTBALL.   (Not yelling, emphasizing). 
 

It’s the defenses job to be ready on every single play.  Trick plays are fair game and their ability to work comes from NOT EXPECTING THEM.

 

Its just ridiculous to whine about this.  These are grown men playing a game for millions of dollars for a living. 
 

Again, all caps was not me yelling, just emphasizing those statements.  It’s all good, but I totally disagree with the outrage on this play.  It’s just silly. 
 

You haven’t been paying attention.  There were several incidents the last couple seasons.

The spike analogy is off base imo. A spike is an incomplete pass from the quarterback and performed in a specific circumstance, usually done with the expectation of further action as understood by both teams. It's a valid play to defend as the ball is snapped with the understanding that the play will involve the quarterback throwing a deliberate incompletion.

 

A kneel down is the QB giving himself up, which comes with a lot of additional protections. It's a gentleman's agreement NOT to rush and expose players to unnecessary injury in those situations because the expectation is that the QB is giving himself up and therefore there is no need to defend anything. It's certainly not illegal but there's a reason teams don't do it- it's unnecessarily dangerous and it isn't in good sportsmanship.

[Scott7975]

I think it was classless and dumb.  Dumb because Harbaugh would be the first person bitching if he kneeled a ball and because of film... the opposing defense got aggressive knowing that he could run a play.  This is how players get hurt over dumb stuff.

[Your Brown Eye]

they're grown *** professional's, if they got okie-doked by such a play then that's on them 

[bobblehead]

Kinda hanging Jackson out to dry there. I’d want to think he was a little bent about having to run that.

 

like was mentioned a few times already.  This could come back to bite Baltimore in the future when they try it on someone like Gregg Williams 

Edited December 9, 2019 by bobblehead

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Your Brown Eye said:

they're grown *** professional's, if they got okie-doked by such a play then that's on them 

I wonder if everyone would be as forgiving if the defensive line randomly decided to cut block everyone on the oline on a kneeldown

[mannc]

44 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Teams do blitz kneel downs.

Nonsense.

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The spike analogy is off base imo. A spike is an incomplete pass from the quarterback and performed in a specific circumstance, usually done with the expectation of further action as understood by both teams. It's a valid play to defend as the ball is snapped with the understanding that the play will involve the quarterback throwing a deliberate incompletion.

 

A kneel down is the QB giving himself up, which comes with a lot of additional protections. It's a gentleman's agreement NOT to rush and expose players to unnecessary injury in those situations because the expectation is that the QB is giving himself up and therefore there is no need to defend anything. It's certainly not illegal but there's a reason teams don't do it- it's unnecessarily dangerous and it isn't in good sportsmanship.

It’s the same thing.  The DL isn’t expected to come hard if the QB is signaling to set up for a spike.  Again, it’s the defenses job to be ready...period.  Everything else is just an excuse.  
 

End of game is different, but this was a love play.  Be ready or get burned, end of story.  

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

Nonsense.

Except it’s not, so there’s that too.  May not be common, but it’s happened a few times the last couple of years.

 

Then again, it’s pointless to discuss anyway, because this was NOT at the end of a game.

 

Every single one of you whining 100% would have loved this play if McD did it and scored off it.  

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Say When... said:

 

I remember Schiano doing it but then being grudge ****** out of it because it was bush and considered a player safety issue but with all the football i watch i haven't seen it since then.

 

if i were to be honest i think that's the only formation i'd consider 'protected' for many reasons but as @GunnerBill stated more importantly player, and potentially in this case the Refs safety (one almost got caught up in it).

 

if I'm tomlin, Kitchens, and whomever the 3rd team they play + playoffs i got 120% full out blitz and pile on Lamar, turnabout is fair play here.  what will be interesting is if there's late hit calls, hard part is actually seeing the knee hit and the whistle blow.

 

anyone hear a whistle on that play?  even the refs weren't prepared.

 

Yea Schiano is the only one I remember. And he got roundly criticised. And rightly so. You wanna run a play? Fine, run a play. But don't line up to kneel and run one. I think it risks player safety. 

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Every single one of you whining 100% would have loved this play if McD did it and scored off it.  

 

I promise you that I wouldn't. I love John Harbaugh. I'd hire him tomorrow and have long since argued he is 2nd only to Belichick in the league. But I think it was a bad move. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea Schiano is the only one I remember. And he got roundly criticised. And rightly so. You wanna run a play? Fine, run a play. But don't line up to kneel and run one. I think it risks player safety. 

BUT this was not the same thing...not end of a game.  
 

And these guys play a violent game, they are an injury risk every play.  So I find this injury excuse a bit silly.

 

Its a wide open game with time in the clock.  Be ready as a defense...period.  Anything else is being undisciplined and you deserve to be fooled.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea Schiano is the only one I remember. And he got roundly criticised. And rightly so. You wanna run a play? Fine, run a play. But don't line up to kneel and run one. I think it risks player safety. 

I wonder if these guys would be ok with opposing coaches telling their dline to cut every single offensive lineman when Ravens line up for kneeldowns...because play through the whistle right? lmao people defending this are just being contrary, it's like one of the best understood unwritten rules of pro football.

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea Schiano is the only one I remember. And he got roundly criticised. And rightly so. You wanna run a play? Fine, run a play. But don't line up to kneel and run one. I think it risks player safety. 

 

I promise you that I wouldn't. I love John Harbaugh. I'd hire him tomorrow and have long since argued he is 2nd only to Belichick in the league. But I think it was a bad move. 

I actually believe you Gunner, but you’re one of the few I would say that would say that.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

BUT this was not the same thing...not end of a game.  
 

And these guys play a violent game, they are an injury risk every play.  So I find this injury excuse a bit silly.

 

Its a wide open game with time in the clock.  Be ready as a defense...period.  Anything else is being undisciplined and you deserve to be fooled.

 

You risk safety far greater when the player you are hitting is defenseless. Indeed the rules of the game address that specifically. 

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I wonder if these guys would be ok with opposing coaches telling their dline to cut every single offensive lineman when Ravens line up for kneeldowns...because play through the whistle right? lmao people defending this are just being contrary, it's like one of the best understood unwritten rules of pro football.

You can’t separate end of game with end of half.  They are NOT the same play.  
 

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You risk safety far greater when the player you are hitting is defenseless. Indeed the rules of the game address that specifically. 

Dude, these guy battle on goal lines.  They aren’t defenseless unless they choose to be.  That’s their choice, and it’s a bad choice.

 

When did lineman become precious dolls that can’t handle contact?

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dude, these guy battle on goal lines.  They aren’t defenseless unless they choose to be.  That’s their choice, and it’s a bad choice.

 

When did lineman become precious dolls that can’t handle contact?

 

So let's not have kneel downs then. Let's outlaw them and say you have to run a play. I'd be fine with that. But one side contesting kneel downs when the other team isn't is dangerous. There is just no other word for it. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

You can’t separate end of game with end of half.  They are NOT the same play.  

It doesn't matter. The expectations are the same. 

 

I mean...are you seriously trying to say that if we were kneeling out the clock at halftime and Judon came through and blew out Dawkins' knee, well, that's on Dawkins because he wasn't 'being ready'? That guys are supposed to play through an obvious kneel down formation at all times? You're asking for penalties at best and injuries at worst.

 

Can't believe this is actually a discussion. I like Harbaugh ok but this was a bad look.

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So let's not have kneel downs then. Let's outlaw them and say you have to run a play. I'd be fine with that. But one side contesting kneel downs when the other team isn't is dangerous. There is just no other word for it. 

Josh Allen fumbled the ball on 4th and 1 against Dallas.  Fumbled handoffs are rare like that but do happen.  If it’s a one score game, both teams should be playing hard on a kneel down as the QB could fumble the snap, especially if he fears pressure from the D.  It’s football, not patty cake.  
 

But end of half, the offense can and should be looking for any way to score still anyway.  Defense better be ready and the OL better be ready for the D to take the play seriously too.  Any player on that field not taking a play seriously is putting themselves in danger, that’s on them.  
 

Two score game, a kneel down at end of game should be a gentlemans walkoff.  But I’ve always found it silly to surrender down one score where a mistake can still happen.  

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It doesn't matter. The expectations are the same. 

 

I mean...are you seriously trying to say that if we were kneeling out the clock at halftime and Judon came through and blew out Dawkins' knee, well, that's on Dawkins because he wasn't 'being ready'? That guys are supposed to play through an obvious kneel down formation at all times? You're asking for penalties at best and injuries at worst.

 

Can't believe this is actually a discussion. I like Harbaugh ok but this was a bad look.

So OL are somehow more fragile on a kneel down than on the goal line?  Come on man.  
 

This is football, not a tea party.  If you are on that field, you better be ready for contact at all times...period. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Josh Allen fumbled the ball on 4th and 1 against Dallas.  Fumbled handoffs are rare like that but do happen.  If it’s a one score game, both teams should be playing hard on a kneel down as the QB could fumble the snap, especially if he fears pressure from the D.  It’s football, not patty cake.  
 

But end of half, the offense can and should be looking for any way to score still anyway.  Defense better be ready and the OL better be ready for the D to take the play seriously too.  Any player on that field not taking a play seriously is putting themselves in danger, that’s on them.  
 

Two score game, a kneel down at end of game should be a gentlemans walkoff.  But I’ve always found it silly to surrender down one score where a mistake can still happen.  

Bro...you said earlier you can't compare a kneeldown at halftime to a kneeldown at full time and then proceed to compare a kneel down with a QB sneak on 4th and 1? Seriously? 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Bro...you said earlier you can't compare a kneeldown at halftime to a kneeldown at full time and then proceed to compare a kneel down with a QB sneak on 4th and 1? Seriously? 

 

 

I didn’t compare it, I mentioned it to show a QB can fumble while directly under center.  It happens.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I didn’t compare it, I mentioned it to show a QB can fumble while directly under center.  It happens.

Then come up with examples of fumbled snaps on kneel downs, not fumbled snaps on QB sneaks. Sorry but that's a crap argument.

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Then come up with examples of fumbled snaps on kneel downs, not fumbled snaps on QB sneaks. Sorry but that's a crap argument.

You are the one saying they don’t go all out on kneel downs at end of games.  So of course no fumbles really.  I’m saying if there was pressure it may happen more often. 
 

All good, we don’t have to keep going round and round.  Bottom line, this wasnt end of game, it was a legal play, and Ravens did nothing wrong.  BOTH teams should be lined up there ready to play a meaningful snap period.  
 

All this whining about a legal play is laughable to me.  Some of you act like this is a pop Warner game in a church.  Geezus, they are grown men playing a violent game for a lot of money.  No excuse to not be ready in a opportune time for the offense to try a trick play to increase odds of winning a game.  

Edited December 9, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Josh Allen fumbled the ball on 4th and 1 against Dallas.  Fumbled handoffs are rare like that but do happen.  If it’s a one score game, both teams should be playing hard on a kneel down as the QB could fumble the snap, especially if he fears pressure from the D.  It’s football, not patty cake.  
 

But end of half, the offense can and should be looking for any way to score still anyway.  Defense better be ready and the OL better be ready for the D to take the play seriously too.  Any player on that field not taking a play seriously is putting themselves in danger, that’s on them.  
 

Two score game, a kneel down at end of game should be a gentlemans walkoff.  But I’ve always found it silly to surrender down one score where a mistake can still happen. 

 

You may find it silly but that is the way it has been. You don't like the convention but that is a separate debate. The debate here is while it is a convention is it safe for one team to unilaterally ignore it. And the answer is no, it's not.