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Inigo Montoya

Josh's running style more injury prone than Lamar's

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4 minutes ago, skibum said:

It's only a matter of time before someone clobbers Lamar Jackson into protocol land. Like he's going to come out of a spin move and whoops, there's a 300 lb. man he didn't see about to lower the boom. It's an odds game, and the house always wins. 

This. X1000. 

 

It's not IF but WHEN. You can book it. It's happened to every running QB in the history of the league. He will be no different. 

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6 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

A QB can get hurt on any play, in the pocket, out of the pocket, or even slipping on a rubber floor mat on the sidelines... anytime.

 

Having said that, it seems to me that Allen is at a lot more risk of injury when he runs compared to Jackson.  Josh is a big tank of a guy at 6'5", 237 lbs and would seem more durable if he has to tuck the ball and run with it compared to Lamar Jackson who is 6'2" and 212 lbs.  The problem is Josh's violent running style.  He is much more likely to lower his head and try to pick up a few extra yards at the end of a run and take a hit in the process.  Conversely, Lamar rarely ever takes a big hit, or any hit at all, because he is so fast and shifty.  He is so incredibly athletic that DBs and LBs can never seem to get a solid hit on him.  He dodges or is out of bounds before he can get hammered.  

 

I think Allen's ability to tuck the ball and take off is a vital part of his game and I don't want to see him not run, I just hope that he looks at what has happened to Cam's career and learns to slide more, head out of bonds more, and not continue to scrap for every single yard.  I love Josh's competitiveness and desire to win on every play, but if he is going to be our franchise QB he needs to be on the field.  He needs to stay healthy.  As the Pats showed earlier this year, an opposing defense won't hesitate to try and knock him out of a game if he gives them any chance to do so. 

 

This franchise's playoff run comes to a grinding halt if Allen isn't under center.  I hope he doesn't feel the pressure to keep up with Lamar this weekend and plays to win but also plays smart to protect his body. He needs to think about the big picture.

 

 

Mere supposition, 

Every player stands a relatively high probability of injury on every play they are involved in, QBs odds of injury are less running than staying in the pocket. That, and playing afraid of injury will end our  “ playoff run “ faster than “playing fearlessly”  just sayin, 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

 

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1 hour ago, HOUSE said:

I am surprised Lamar made it this far, 6'2" 214 LBS ??

 

Image result for lamar jackson

Steve Young was 6’2” and roughly 215. Maybe he was 220

 

Different time I realize but he ran a lot too. 

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The risk with Allen’s running style is vulnerability to hits by the 2nd-3rd-4th guy as he fights for yardage. It’s hard to protect himself against those hits.

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25 minutes ago, Fred Slacks said:

Steve Young was 6’2” and roughly 215. Maybe he was 220

 

Different time I realize but he ran a lot too. 

He also had over 7 concussions. The last of which caused his retirement. He’s done interviews on it saying that after a few of those concussions he couldn’t remember his sisters name.... It was a different league then, but the risk is still there. 

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Where Josh tries to avoid contact is where I feel like he is most vulnerable. That's when guys still come in and deliver a shot to the head.

 

Running backs don't get hurt all that much considering how many times they carry the ball and that's be cause they are the aggressor, they are initiating contact, they can anticipate a hit and protect themselves. Going out of bounds is Josh's best bet but if he's in the open field he needs to just run it like Gore. Lower the shoulders, two hands on the ball, run some people over because if he slides before contact it's almost a sure thing that someone is going to dive for his head and neck.

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27 minutes ago, RavensFan said:

The risk with Allen’s running style is vulnerability to hits by the 2nd-3rd-4th guy as he fights for yardage. It’s hard to protect himself against those hits.

He could and should slide more imho.  But I love it when he lays the lumber to the DBs!

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7 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

A QB can get hurt on any play, in the pocket, out of the pocket, or even slipping on a rubber floor mat on the sidelines... anytime.

 

Having said that, it seems to me that Allen is at a lot more risk of injury when he runs compared to Jackson.  Josh is a big tank of a guy at 6'5", 237 lbs and would seem more durable if he has to tuck the ball and run with it compared to Lamar Jackson who is 6'2" and 212 lbs.  The problem is Josh's violent running style.  He is much more likely to lower his head and try to pick up a few extra yards at the end of a run and take a hit in the process.  Conversely, Lamar rarely ever takes a big hit, or any hit at all, because he is so fast and shifty.  He is so incredibly athletic that DBs and LBs can never seem to get a solid hit on him.  He dodges or is out of bounds before he can get hammered.  

 

I think Allen's ability to tuck the ball and take off is a vital part of his game and I don't want to see him not run, I just hope that he looks at what has happened to Cam's career and learns to slide more, head out of bonds more, and not continue to scrap for every single yard.  I love Josh's competitiveness and desire to win on every play, but if he is going to be our franchise QB he needs to be on the field.  He needs to stay healthy.  As the Pats showed earlier this year, an opposing defense won't hesitate to try and knock him out of a game if he gives them any chance to do so. 

 

This franchise's playoff run comes to a grinding halt if Allen isn't under center.  I hope he doesn't feel the pressure to keep up with Lamar this weekend and plays to win but also plays smart to protect his body. He needs to think about the big picture.

 

A couple of points here.

 

One is that No Contest, the biggest hits Josh is taking right now are in the pocket.  While he hasn't been sacked an ungodly amount, he's also been hit after the throw a good bit, and those are often hard hits where he has no control over the direction or how he falls.  The hit after his TD throw would be one example.

 

Second is that right now, and it's troubling, Josh is taking hits when he slides and several seconds after the ball is gone, and these usually aren't being flagged.  Hopefully the Bills are taking packages to the league and working to change this.

 

Third is that of late, he has NOT been scrapping for every yard and putting his head down and stiff-arming people to extend runs so much.

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1 hour ago, skibum said:

It's only a matter of time before someone clobbers Lamar Jackson into protocol land. Like he's going to come out of a spin move and whoops, there's a 300 lb. man he didn't see about to lower the boom. It's an odds game, and the house always wins. 

Exactly. He is elusive and does avoid the big hits so far, but he runs so much it is bound to happen. Also, he runs a lot down the middle, so he could get clobbered there. Anyway, both he and Josh have success running. Why stop? I hope today that Josh outruns him, which would shut the media up for a couple of... minutes ha ha, and it would mean the Bills Defense did its job.

 

 

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6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

RG3 disagrees.....

RG3 -Ngata hit wasnt a light up shot or cheap just tackled and knee in a bad spot. Nothing careless, nothing exposed it's tackle football 

 

the only thing I fear with Josh running is a late slide with a cheap shot under the chin with helmet ala Trent Green years ago

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40 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

He also had over 7 concussions. The last of which caused his retirement. He’s done interviews on it saying that after a few of those concussions he couldn’t remember his sisters name.... It was a different league then, but the risk is still there. 

Yea I wasn’t validating Lamar’s running. Just putting out there someone of similar stature. Personally I think Lamar will be fun to watch...until he gets drilled a few times. I also believe that drilling is inevitable. The refs have been favoring him for a scrambling QB. If you watch the Steelers game Pitt had the Ravens tied and they were driving. Steelers got called for a debatable roughing the passer call which extended the drive and allowed Baltimore to take the lead. Defenders will get fed up with that stuff and take as many shots on him as they can because they don’t like getting embarrassed by him in the open field. 
 

I don’t know when that is going to happen and I hope for Lamar’s sake it’s longer than RQ3 (which I believe it will be). He does seem to avoid big hits. I think he looks quicker than Vick. Time will tel

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Josh reminds me of McNair in a lot of ways he ran alot early then less as time went on but he was dangerous and killer keeping drives alive with a 3rd down run. 

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Anyone running with the football rarely gets hurt by a big hit, unless someone illegally puts a helmet into your head and you get a concussion. Injuries happen when you plant your foot in the turf, or someone falls on your leg from behind, or some weird situation. Even in the pocket big hits are not usually the injury hits. Last year it was a freak helmet to the arm. It's often your hand hitting a helmet. 

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...FWIW, I'd say it is all a part of Allen's growth and maturation process........early on, it was, "come hell or high water.....whatever it takes to get the W".........and CERTAINLY not for ME, but for WE as in "OUR team and OUR family"...........Russell honed his skills and progressed into "when or IF to run", developed pocket passing skills, all benefits to prolong his career versus a quick exit "gurney ride"......Allen's physicality, size, speed, agility and of course cannon arm are uncanny attributes, a scary combination lacking for YEARS at OBD.....he'll be smart to "pick 'n choose when to use"........need him here LONG TERM......as far as Lamar, he could achieve/develop or be the next RG II 1/8-Kaep, etc that got figured out in short order by DC's.......

Edited by OldTimeAFLGuy

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7 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

RG3 disagrees.....

yep, everything being said about LJ now are the same things said about RGIII.  and then he got blown up and it was all over.   Neither RGIII nor LJ can be a star from the pocket.  Josh can be a star from the pocket.  LJ's "wildcat " days will come to an end sooner or later one way or another.    Take my current backyard, the D.C. area.   Kirk Cousins played smart and got a zillion $ contract.   RGIII is effectively out of the game.   Both drafted the same year, (by the same team, no less)  just like JA and LJ.   My guess is we will see the same result eventually. 

Edited by ProcessTruster

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7 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

RG3 disagrees.....

 

There was more going on with RG3 than being a running qb and getting hit.  Honestly I'm shocked he was taken so high.  Not sure if you've seen this (I hadn't until recently), but it's pretty crazy. Zion Williamson has similar mechanical issues in his form (though different) and already had to get part of his meniscus removed, which could lead to bad things long term.

 

 

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3 hours ago, RavensFan said:

 

Lamar is just as much a pocket passer as Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson; probably more so than Wilson, who’s spending a lot of time running for his life. If a team is able to shut down his running, he’s more than capable of beating them from the pocket.

 

BTW, the hardest hits he’s taken have been in the pocket, including low hits and blows to the head.

Ok.

I don’t see the same style with Lamar as I do when I watch Aaron and Russell. Jackson doesn’t see the field like those guys have shown they can. Teams will figure out how to force Lamar to be a pure passer, that’s when he will show what you say he can do. 

Edited by atlbillsfan1975

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13 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

yep, everything being said about LJ now are the same things said about RGIII.  and then he got blown up and it was all over.   Neither RGIII nor LJ can be a star from the pocket.  Josh can be a star from the pocket.  LJ's "wildcat " days will come to an end sooner or later one way or another.    Take my current backyard, the D.C. area.   Kirk Cousins played smart and got a zillion $ contract.   RGIII is effectively out of the game.   Both drafted the same year, (by the same team, no less)  just like JA and LJ.   My guess is we will see the same result eventually. 

I disagree with the bolded. I think Jackson can develop into a pocket passer. He and J Allen seem to have amazing drive which the Mayfields and RGIIIs lack. It’s going to help them both evolve. Now, Roman’s offense and passing schemes may not help the kid reach the next step of development, and a major injury could certainly derail his career. Jackson has enough tools and will power to improve. 
 

29 minutes ago, Fred Slacks said:

Yea I wasn’t validating Lamar’s running. Just putting out there someone of similar stature. Personally I think Lamar will be fun to watch...until he gets drilled a few times. I also believe that drilling is inevitable. The refs have been favoring him for a scrambling QB. If you watch the Steelers game Pitt had the Ravens tied and they were driving. Steelers got called for a debatable roughing the passer call which extended the drive and allowed Baltimore to take the lead. Defenders will get fed up with that stuff and take as many shots on him as they can because they don’t like getting embarrassed by him in the open field. 
 

I don’t know when that is going to happen and I hope for Lamar’s sake it’s longer than RQ3 (which I believe it will be). He does seem to avoid big hits. I think he looks quicker than Vick. Time will tel

The favorable treatment has been interesting to me. I’m certainly on record as saying that Josh has been getting the Cam Newton treatment from refs. Jackson seems to be getting more of the Rodgers treatment. I’m not sure if body type is the difference here or marketing potential for the league. Either way they need to find a way to avoid impacts. 

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RGIII's body type didn't allow him to continue running like that. He had skinny legs and not a lot of power. Myself and and a lot of others thought it was unsustainable. He was fast but a stick. Lamar is a lot better built. Josh is a tank. 

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There is definitely more of a Cam Newton risk to Allen running over and over again. The toll could add up by year 8 or 10 for him as it has for Cam. Allen is being smarter lately with avoiding hits but it will never be completely taught out of him like it has been with Russell Wilson. In fact, despite Allen's talk of this just being another game, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Allen give some extra effort on some runs today. He knows it's a huge game.

 

That said, Jackson is running 50% more than Allen is this year, 140 attempts for Jackson to 93 for Allen. I would say that extra 50% of rush attempts for Jackson would be far more concerning with regards to greater injury risk. 

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Disagree, Lamar runs upright and josh has better body lean. Lamars knees and ankles will get torn up eventually 

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