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PlayoffsPlease

Why should intent matter for helmet to helmet hits?

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

 

 

 

Defenders are taught that if you get a free shot on a QB you 100% take it. The Bills are no different.

 

 

I don't think so. That is frowned upon and penalties are harsh. Barkley was wrapped up and a second defender was in position to lay a vicious hit on him, probably sending him to the locker room with Josh. He backed off like he was coached to do.

Edited by bmur66

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Don’t like the hit but Allen needs to be smarter when he runs. 

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its less about intent and more about the Pats. The Pats are a marquee team for the NFL, the bills are not. Josh Allen is not a marquee player for the NFL so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

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1 hour ago, CountDorkula said:

 

 

Defenders are taught that if you get a free shot on a QB you 100% take it.

 

DBs wake up every morning praying to deliver a hit like this on a foolish QB or skill player who won't protect himself

 

the O-line wants to get up to full speed downfield and totally lay out a DB just the same

 

 

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3 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I watched Allen get hit by Jones live. It was brutal.  I watched a replay of the Burfict hit.  It was brutal. Outcomes weren't that different.  I am not a mind reader so I don't know either of their intents. And I don't care about.  

I think there is a reasonable analogy to a driver rear ending the car in front of them.  In all places I am aware of if I hit the car in front of me, it is my fault for following too closely. Always.  I am guessing in 99.9% of cars rear ending other cars it is a result of carelessness, not one driver purposely crashing into another driver.  As a driver I am expected to know how to drive and to not be careless. When an accident happens and it is my fault, than I am liable for the damages and subject to fines for following to closely.   No one would want to hear from me "but I did not intend to hit the other car'.   
 

In the Allen-Jones case, the hit was 100% Jones' fault, intent or not, and he should be held personally liable for it with an ejection, a fine and automatic suspension. 

If Jones or Burfict are actually proven to have intended to harm the person they targeted that is an actual crime called the police should become involved. And arrests should be made. 
I am a long time fan of the NFL.  I like hard hitting. I hate seeing anyone get hurt.  But most injuries are part of the game.  What Jones did this week is not part of the game. It was either an intentional cheap shot, or an avoidable accident brought on by careless and reckless play.  Jones should be held to account for either reason. 
 

I don't know about arresting people, but generally I agree.   If you're going to have rules to stop people from getting seriously injured, then the rules should be tough enough to cause people to be punished for violating the rules.   In the case of head to head hits, I think it's simple.   Head to head hit is a personal foul.   The guy who commits the foul is suspended from further play in the game until the guy who was hit in the head is cleared to return to the field.   That's fair, because the decision about whether he can return to the field is made by the trainers and doctors, not the coaches and players.  The hitter is suspended from game to game so long as the victim is in the concussion protocol.   End of story.   

 

Institute that rule and and head to head hits will disappear.  THAT would be getting serious about head to head hits.  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know about arresting people, but generally I agree.   If you're going to have rules to stop people from getting seriously injured, then the rules should be tough enough to cause people to be punished for violating the rules.   In the case of head to head hits, I think it's simple.   Head to head hit is a personal foul.   The guy who commits the foul is suspended from further play in the game until the guy who was hit in the head is cleared to return to the field.   That's fair, because the decision about whether he can return to the field is made by the trainers and doctors, not the coaches and players.  The hitter is suspended from game to game so long as the victim is in the concussion protocol.   End of story.   

 

Institute that rule and and head to head hits will disappear.  THAT would be getting serious about head to head hits.  

 

head to head hits occur on almost every play in the NFL

 

you hear that click of helmets almost every play in the NFL involving the takedown of a player, there's helmet collision on plays going out of bounds

 

it's inherent in the game

 

a fan getting super-sensitive about his team sees all kinds of things that the NFL takes for granted, the same as an NBA fan is convinced EVERY shot his players should be and-one or EVERY drive by an opponent is traveling

 

there is a clear problem in the game, for which Burfict provided a textbook example. that must be removed

 

 

 

 

Edited by row_33

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3 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I watched Allen get hit by Jones live. It was brutal.  I watched a replay of the Burfict hit.  It was brutal. Outcomes weren't that different.  I am not a mind reader so I don't know either of their intents. And I don't care about.  

I think there is a reasonable analogy to a driver rear ending the car in front of them.  In all places I am aware of if I hit the car in front of me, it is my fault for following too closely. Always.  I am guessing in 99.9% of cars rear ending other cars it is a result of carelessness, not one driver purposely crashing into another driver.  As a driver I am expected to know how to drive and to not be careless. When an accident happens and it is my fault, than I am liable for the damages and subject to fines for following to closely.   No one would want to hear from me "but I did not intend to hit the other car'.   
 

 

But to use the logic of some - it was the fault of the car you rear-ended because it was on the road

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I think there is almost never an intent by a defender to hit a guy in the head (with the possible exception of a guy like Burfict). 

 

The problem is the defender choosing to follow through with a hit that has a good chance of landing on the head. That's a reckless play, and it looked to me like that's what happened to Allen. Jones was going for an aggressive legal tackle, but he didn't really have the time and space to make it a clean hit. So it was a reckless decision, even if the intent was not to go for the head. 

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The NFL isn’t really serious about protecting all QB’s or even all players, for that matter. They certainly are t going to start with Josh Allen. It’s too bad because it will take out a big part of his game, but that’s how it is. It’s another reason why the Pats never get called for offensive holding. As we saw Sunday, a holding call gives free reign for defenders to take a shot at the QB without consequence on the field. 

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41 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

head to head hits occur on almost every play in the NFL

 

you hear that click of helmets almost every play in the NFL involving the takedown of a player, there's helmet collision on plays going out of bounds

 

it's inherent in the game

 

a fan getting super-sensitive about his team sees all kinds of things that the NFL takes for granted, the same as an NBA fan is convinced EVERY shot his players should be and-one or EVERY drive by an opponent is traveling

 

there is a clear problem in the game, for which Burfict provided a textbook example. that must be removed

 

 

 

 

But players are not required to leave the field on every play.   What I'm saying is every time a player goes down with a hit to the head, play is stopped and the trainers come out to deal with him, the play should be reviewed, whether a penalty was called or not.   If on review it's determined that the tackler hit shoulder or helmet to head and did so without regard to the health of the guy who got hit, a personal foul should be called and the guy who made the hit should be suspended from NFL play until the guy who got hit is cleared to return to the field.   If it's two plays, fine, the hitter is out for two plays.   If it's the rest of the game, fine.   If it's three weeks, fine.   You hit someone in the head in a way that is a violation of the rules, you sit as long as the guy you hit sits.  

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16 minutes ago, skibum said:

I think there is almost never an intent by a defender to hit a guy in the head (with the possible exception of a guy like Burfict). 

 

The problem is the defender choosing to follow through with a hit that has a good chance of landing on the head. That's a reckless play, and it looked to me like that's what happened to Allen. Jones was going for an aggressive legal tackle, but he didn't really have the time and space to make it a clean hit. So it was a reckless decision, even if the intent was not to go for the head. 

That's exactly right.  They should not be allowed to make plays without reasonably protecting the defenseless player.   Jones was reckless, and that recklessness shouldn't go unpunished. 

 

The point is that they are trying, or should be trying, to eliminate all head injuries.   The way to that is to punish every player who causes a serious head injury either intentionally or because he wasn't being careful to protect the defenseless player.   

 

Everyone, including the players, scream when a new player safety rule comes in.   But within two years of the new rule being instituted, the problem is pretty much solved.   There are probably 90% fewer hits on defenseless receivers than there were ten years ago.   QBs aren't getting hit below the knees any more.   They aren't getting hit in the head any more.  The players adjust to the rules, even if they don't like it. 

 

The problem with the head injuries is that they are so severe and have such long term consequences, it isn't enough deterrent to have a 15-yard penalty.  Automatic game and multi-game suspension will stop all but the accidental head hits.  

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4 hours ago, Gray Beard said:

How does an offense retaliate?  Defense has the hitters, offense has the hittees.

 

 

4 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Do what the Patriots do, run pick plays. 

 

Or.... hire Hines Ward away from the Jets to be our "Offensive Quality Control" coach ....?

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Posted (edited)
Edited by row_33

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Posted (edited)

Bill Belichick SAID 

 

this is how we (Putz)  teach our  players to hit / tackle 

 

 

Edited by SlimShady'sGhost
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Posted (edited)

The helmet to helmet part of it was flagged for unnecessary roughness. I'm not sure what else you expect the league to do unless you're advocating for completely removing hitting from the game. I have a feeling if it was Hide and Poyer hitting Lamar Jackson we'd be arguing the other side of it.

 

Josh wasn't defenseless. His forward progress had not been stopped. He was not on the ground or still in the air after catching a pass. He was not being held up by a tackler. It was a bang, bang play. I think some of you guys are being a little unrealistic about how fast the game moves and how little time there is for players to adjust. Josh got hit twice in the span of less than a second -- the first one changed his momentum and the angle of impact of the second hit. It really was bad luck more than anything. 

Edited by VW82

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The hit might have been borderline but since its the Patriots crucify them. The problem is Josh is under the delusional impression that he will be able to duplicate what he did with his legs last year. That will never happen again. All team have tape and most will have a spy. His days of busting 40 yard runs or 100+ yard days are over. It's not to say he can't still scramble but he has to slide at ALL costs. And Daboll better hammer that into his head before someone else does.

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I

9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Bill Belichick SAID 

 

this is how we (Putz)  teach our  players to hit / tackle 

 

 

Yeah, I just read that 😡- so what BB is saying is they COACH a head to head direct tackle? A concussion results in the head/neck snapping back.... must also coach players to act like idiots (know I'm beating a dead horse here) like Gronkowski slamming White's head into the ground in '17 ... and by the way, BB - keep your damn kid off the field during pre-game warm ups

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