Why the Zay Hate?

[Big Turk]

On 9/30/2019 at 9:33 AM, Virgil said:

Can someone please tell me what Zay did, or didn’t do, yesterday to call for the hate?  I see people saying cut him immediately.  
 

I can’t remember a play with him where I thought he was the reason we sucked.  The guy isn’t even out there that much.  
 

Overall, he hasn’t lived up to his draft status and physical traits, but I don’t see how yesterday was the deal breaker.  
 

What am I missing?

He showed no effort to break up either of the INTs when the ball was in the air. Thats enough of a reason to take a long seat on the bench in my mind.

Edited October 4, 2019 by matter2003

[Billsman623]

Because he has stone hands and his effort was Kelvin Benjaminesque last week. Enough is enough. Your draft position can only get you so many chances.

[ramjo]

It's amazing how everything these days are extremes.  Extreme hate or unreasonable support.

 

Bottom line.  He's a good kid that's a dime-a-dozen receiver drafted in the 2nd round.  He's a disappointment.  This is his third year, he's still a disappointment.  

 

A receiver worthy of a second round pick and contract makes more plays, makes the QB look better, fights harder, has better awareness.  

 

That's not Zay.  We thought it was, but it's not.  Season One, disappointment, he's still young.  Season two, a little better, but still inconsistent.  Season three.  Train wreck.  Now that Brown and Beasley are here, he has no ability to step up his game.  He either is a no-show, lost in the shadow of the other receivers, or he blows his chance when he gets a chance.  

 

A stronger receiver comes down with that TD from Barkley.

 

Zay is a serviceable receiver, not strong enough, not tough enough, not instinctive enough to be more than a 4th option on most teams.  

 

2nd round bust.  I'd like to see him traded personally.  But wish him well.

[Solomon Grundy]

How many TDs do DK Metcalf have so far vs Zay Jones?

[dollars 2 donuts]

On 9/30/2019 at 9:37 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

I don’t hate the guy.  He belongs on a nfl roster.  But when you trade up for a guy in the 2nd and pass on JuJu and Cooper Kupp, it looks terrible to see how unproductive Zay is.  He has no elite skills.  He is a dime a dozen NFL receiver who was drafted by us because his college coach was on the Bills. 

 

 

CB, many up-voted you on this, including me.

 

However, is it wrong of me to kind of hate you a little bit for even reminding me of this?

 

?

Edited October 4, 2019 by dollars 2 donuts

[djp14150]

The Zate runs rampant....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Basically it comes largely as an urge to throw as much blame as humanly possible away from Josh Allen. People think that if he's not to blame maybe it'll somehow make him become a franchise QB.

 

I don't see how you conclude this at all.  Are you trying to argue that we actually had adequate WR performance last year? 

 

More to the point, scapegoating Zay was in full force a year before Allen was ever drafted.

 

Quote

Scapegoating satisfies many deep human needs and Zay has been scapegoated since very early on, for good reason that first year, not quite so much afterwards.

It also has to do with Zay's draft spot.

Nor were people thrilled about the hotel window incident or missing most of two training camps with injury.

 

This rings much more true.  A lot of the scapegoating has to do with where Zay was drafted and the fact that two receivers with far better careers to date (Juju Smith Schuster and Cooper Kupp) were taken later on.  And yes, the hotel window incident and the missed TCs didn't help his cause.  There's also the fact that Zay was the current FO's acquisition the year we let two WR (who have since done better) walk in FA and traded a third.

 

But the fact is, independent of things over which he had no control (injuries, draft position), Zay has not had the impact as a WR that one would like to see in a high draft pick wideout.  He's a good blocker, and this year he may be improving his release and his abilities to get separation.  He runs good but not great routes.  He has trouble adjusting to the ball and now it seems he doesn't fight for the ball.

 

That given, the Zate (love it) is over the top sometimes.  He's not a bum who doesn't belong on an NFL roster, and we're not going to pick someone better up off the street.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Basically it comes largely as an urge to throw as much blame as humanly possible away from Josh Allen. People think that if he's not to blame maybe it'll somehow make him become a franchise QB.

 

Scapegoating satisfies many deep human needs and Zay has been scapegoated since very early on, for good reason that first year, not quite so much afterwards.

 

It also has to do with Zay's draft spot.

 

Nor were people thrilled about the hotel window incident or missing most of two training camps with injury.

 

Zays draft spot is the only reason he still has a job, it’s the best thing that ever happened to him.  

 

Had he been a mid to late round pick or UDFA, he would have likely been cut after his atrocious rookie year and off season issues.  And even if he survived that rookie year, he definitely would not still be on this roster today.  Bills investment has given him a longer leash. 

 

Zay has been definitively outplayed in all 3 seasons by other WRs on the roster while also struggling with mistakes, drops, and off field stuff along the way too.

 

And sorry, but I don’t care where he was drafted.  I care about what he does on the field, and averaging 2.5 rec for 30 yards over 35 games sucks by itself.  But the shaky hands, mistakes, inability to make tough catches, lack of in-game awareness, and general small catch radius are why people are upset with him.  Does not matter to us how he got here, him being a disappointment based on where he was drafted is literally the smallest part to his disappointing story so far.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

I ❤️ every one. 

[Orlando Tim]

17 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sammy Watkins in a nutshell:

 

 

I love stats and this is one that tells the story perfectly- 4 limes a year he is the best player on field- 12 times he is below average or missing

[BuffaloHokie13]

I don't know if it qualifies as hate, necessarily, but I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if we cut him and New England picked him up. And I think that best displays my impression of him as a player. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 hours ago, the skycap said:

How many TDs do DK Metcalf have so far vs Zay Jones?

 

Don't get me started.

 

[Reader]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Zays draft spot is the only reason he still has a job, it’s the best thing that ever happened to him.  

 

Had he been a mid to late round pick or UDFA, he would have likely been cut after his atrocious rookie year and off season issues.  And even if he survived that rookie year, he definitely would not still be on this roster today.  Bills investment has given him a longer leash. 

 

Zay has been definitively outplayed in all 3 seasons by other WRs on the roster while also struggling with mistakes, drops, and off field stuff along the way too.

 

And sorry, but I don’t care where he was drafted.  I care about what he does on the field, and averaging 2.5 rec for 30 yards over 35 games sucks by itself.  But the shaky hands, mistakes, inability to make tough catches, lack of in-game awareness, and general small catch radius are why people are upset with him.  Does not matter to us how he got here, him being a disappointment based on where he was drafted is literally the smallest part to his disappointing story so far.

 

I think an important caveat though is that Zay might have been our best wr last year as of week 1. Unless you think Andre "1 catch a game" Holmes or KB "Zay tells me where to line up" were better. Technically Foster was on the roster, but he drastically improved throughout the season. Of course the 2nd half with Foster part II and McKittrick we had talent superior to Zay.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Zays draft spot is the only reason he still has a job, it’s the best thing that ever happened to him.  

 

Maybe so, but if he had been a mid to late round pick or UDFA, he would probably have been stuck onto a PS and allowed to develop.

Instead he was thrown into the fire without anyone better on the roster to help him refine his craft or to draw the attention of the top DBs - until this season (John Brown)

 

Quote

Zay has been definitively outplayed in all 3 seasons by other WRs on the roster while also struggling with mistakes, drops, and off field stuff along the way too.

 

All 3 seasons?  Explain for 2018 please (click postage stamp to embiggen to readable size), because Zay led the Bills in targets, receptions, and receiving yards last year.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Reader said:

 

I think an important caveat though is that Zay might have been our best wr last year as of week 1. Unless you think Andre "1 catch a game" Holmes or KB "Zay tells me where to line up" were better. Technically Foster was on the roster, but he drastically improved throughout the season. Of course the 2nd half with Foster part II and McKittrick we had talent superior to Zay.

 

Still no.  Foster is faster and runs a much better deep route, but he doesn't have the full route tree.

McKittrick is being used as a specialized guy running jet sweeps and the like.  When he does get the chance to run regular routes, what has he done?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I don't know if it qualifies as hate, necessarily, but I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if we cut him and New England picked him up. And I think that best displays my impression of him as a player. 

 

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaah that does say a lot.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Reader said:

 

I think an important caveat though is that Zay might have been our best wr last year as of week 1. Unless you think Andre "1 catch a game" Holmes or KB "Zay tells me where to line up" were better. Technically Foster was on the roster, but he drastically improved throughout the season. Of course the 2nd half with Foster part II and McKittrick we had talent superior to Zay.

Yes, I was really specifically referencing Foster when saying he's been outplayed in all 3 seasons.  Although before Foster was brought back to the active roster for week 10, as bad as KB was those first 9 weeks, he still led the team in receiving the most times.  Zay was tied for 2nd with McCoy, but one of those games was week 1 when Zay led team with 26 yards.  So I would say prior to week 10, it was like a whole different season where the offense as a whole was all hot garbage.  

[Alphadawg7]

43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe so, but if he had been a mid to late round pick or UDFA, he would probably have been stuck onto a PS and allowed to develop.

Instead he was thrown into the fire without anyone better on the roster to help him refine his craft or to draw the attention of the top DBs - until this season (John Brown)

 

 

All 3 seasons?  Explain for 2018 please (click postage stamp to embiggen to readable size), because Zay led the Bills in targets, receptions, and receiving yards last year.

 

 

 

Still no.  Foster is faster and runs a much better deep route, but he doesn't have the full route tree.

McKittrick is being used as a specialized guy running jet sweeps and the like.  When he does get the chance to run regular routes, what has he done?

 

Fair question...and I can easily explain...before I do, want to make it clear, all our guys sucked in weeks 1-9...but lets still look at productivity. 

 

Weeks 1-9 (pre Barkely, pre Josh return, and pre Fosters return).  

KB led team in receiving 3 times.  McCoy and Zay tied for leading team in receiving twice, however one week Zay led the team with just 26 yards...so big deal and McCoy combined for more yards than Zay did. 

 

KB - 302 yards, 1 TD

Zay Jones - 299 yards, 1 TD

 

So Zay wasn't even our most productive receiver before Foster came into the mix in week 10.  Dont get me wrong, KB sucked major balls, by no means am I saying he was good...but as bad as KB was, Zay still didn't our produce him as they were basically even.

 

Weeks 10 - 17

This isn't even a mystery...Foster clearly out produced him during this stretch by putting up 511 yards including three 100 yard games.  Zay put up 353 yards during that stretch.  Now Zay did out produce Foster in TD's, but he got one TD on the last play of a 3 score blow out against the Pats and double dipped on the Dolphins twice.  However, Zay also helped us lose the Miami game when he failed to hold on to the pass that would have had us in the Redzone just before the famous long pass Clay drop.  

 

The only reason Zay "led" the team was only because the other receivers did not play a full season.  Its not an apples to apples situation.  Zay started 15 games.  Foster was active for 13, but he really only played in 7 and only had 3 targets prior to coming back from PS.  So despite starting 15 games, Zay still only finished ahead of Foster by 109 yards despite the fact that all but 3 of Fosters targets came in the final 7 games once being brought back up.  

 

So, there was not any period of time last year where Zay was the most productive WR...he gets the nod on TOTALS only because he started more games than anyone.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fair question...and I can easily explain...before I do, want to make it clear, all our guys sucked in weeks 1-9...but lets still look at productivity. 

 

Weeks 1-9 (pre Barkely, pre Josh return, and pre Fosters return).  

KB led team in receiving 3 times.  McCoy and Zay tied for leading team in receiving twice, however one week Zay led the team with just 26 yards...so big deal and McCoy combined for more yards than Zay did. 

 

KB - 302 yards, 1 TD

Zay Jones - 299 yards, 1 TD

 

So Zay wasn't even our most productive receiver before Foster came into the mix in week 10.  Dont get me wrong, KB sucked major balls, by no means am I saying he was good...but as bad as KB was, Zay still didn't our produce him as they were basically even.

 

Weeks 10 - 17

This isn't even a mystery...Foster clearly out produced him during this stretch by putting up 511 yards including three 100 yard games.  Zay put up 353 yards during that stretch.  Now Zay did out produce Foster in TD's, but he got one TD on the last play of a 3 score blow out against the Pats and double dipped on the Dolphins twice.  However, Zay also helped us lose the Miami game when he failed to hold on to the pass that would have had us in the Redzone just before the famous long pass Clay drop.  

 

The only reason Zay "led" the team was only because the other receivers did not play a full season.  Its not an apples to apples situation.  Zay started 15 games.  Foster was active for 13, but he really only played in 7 and only had 3 targets prior to coming back from PS.  So despite starting 15 games, Zay still only finished ahead of Foster by 109 yards despite the fact that all but 3 of Fosters targets came in the final 7 games once being brought back up.  

 

So, there was not any period of time last year where Zay was the most productive WR...he gets the nod on TOTALS only because he started more games than anyone.

 

 

Fair enough.  Though 302 to 299 yds sounds like a wash to me.  Good on you to explain what you meant, though.

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair enough.  Though 302 to 299 yds sounds like a wash to me.  Good on you to explain what you meant, though.

 

Thanks...yeah, thats why I said they were basically even.  Man, the first 9 weeks cant really say anyone was "good" really, the whole offense was a mess.  I mean sadly, the best receiving day during that time was by McCoy with 82 yards.  Best receiving day by a WR was KB with 71 yards.  

 

But for last year, its really only Foster I am referencing when saying each year he has seen another WR out play him.  Year 1, Thompson did too in 4 less games despite Zay starting all year.  This year, obviously Brown and Cole are (and even Yeldon for that matter).  

[Scott7975]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:20 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But, there were more catchable balls than they are saying.  The TD drop against the Giants was catchable.  The failed scoop pass against the Pats was catchable, even watched a backup TE do it for Mason Rudolph on MNF.  Just to name a couple.  

 

One can’t just say the perfect throws or easy throws only count as catchable.  He’s a professional NFL WR and he needs to make some of these catches too, not just ones that hit him in the chest (which he’s also dropped before).  I mean both of those were critical moments in games.  

 

Thats one of the bigger issues with Zay, he doesn’t make tough catches and doesn’t come through in those big moments.  Any WR in the NFL can catch 7 out 8 passes thrown in an easy to catch spot, especially since all of them to Zay were short to

mid range throws.  What separates one WR from the next is consistency and making more of those tough catches.  

 

But the biggest problem is clearly Zay and Allen also have no apparent chemistry.  

 

Even half of his catches Zay bobbles the ball first.