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Having a hard time talking myself out of 10 wins for this team...

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1 hour ago, Richard Noggin said:

You know, so did I, at first. 

 

But then I waited on him a bunch, including the night he was doing the hard-sell on his big FA class of 2014. In an overheated 3rd floor dining room with Spikes, Dixon, Graham, and Rivers (who literally signed his contract mid-meal in a storage room) plus their families and the appropriate coaches, Marrone got himself fairly tuned up and went on and on about what a fu$%!ng awesome o-line coach he is because of his success in New Orleans. You know, the whole Saint Doug shtick. It was a real thing. 

 

He was somewhat likable from a jock-y perspective, with his downstate accent and bravado and his former o-lineman physical stature. But so damned aloof as coach of the Bills. 

 

(I had had a random, previous interaction with him in a Tipp Hill bar in Syracuse (while he was head coach there) that revealed a MUCH more humble and tolerant public persona, for the record. Made an instant fan out of me. But his private demeanor with the Bills was really ego-city).

 

Oh Marrone is an ass. No doubt. But I think he is a decent head coach and I think in slightly different circumstances could have been a success in Buffalo. I never felt that way about Gailey, Jauron, Mularkey, Williams or Rex. Marrone is the only coach of the drought I actually think had a plan and had a clue what he was doing. The ownership situation and a GM he clearly didn't see eye to eye with (which at least in part led to an unsettled QB situation) was his downfall here rather than not being able to coach. 

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7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Oh Marrone is an ass. No doubt. But I think he is a decent head coach and I think in slightly different circumstances could have been a success in Buffalo. I never felt that way about Gailey, Jauron, Mularkey, Williams or Rex. Marrone is the only coach of the drought I actually think had a plan and had a clue what he was doing. The ownership situation and a GM he clearly didn't see eye to eye with (which at least in part led to an unsettled QB situation) was his downfall here rather than not being able to coach. 

Disagree Gunner. He was carried by a great defense and his offense (his specialty) sucked.  It’s been the same way in Jacksonville.  He has shown no ability to develop qbs and his offensive attack is from a different decade.  He will get fired this year.

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39 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Disagree Gunner. He was carried by a great defense and his offense (his specialty) sucked.  It’s been the same way in Jacksonville.  He has shown no ability to develop qbs and his offensive attack is from a different decade.  He will get fired this year.

Yep, Marrone is a typical, unimaginative dinosaur head coach who inexplicably keeps getting hired by NFL teams.  Coaches like him and Mularkey are why the NFL has the Rooney Rule (although it doesn't seem to be working).  

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32 minutes ago, mannc said:

Yep, Marrone is a typical, unimaginative dinosaur head coach who inexplicably keeps getting hired by NFL teams.  Coaches like him and Mularkey are why the NFL has the Rooney Rule (although it doesn't seem to be working).  

 

Question: does being black make someone an innovative head coach? Because I'd offer Leslie Frazier as an example of the opposite.

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5 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Question: does being black make someone an innovative head coach? Because I'd offer Leslie Frazier as an example of the opposite.

Where did I suggest that?

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2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Where did I suggest that?


Seemed kinda implicit from your post. I dunno.

 

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51 minutes ago, mannc said:

Yep, Marrone is a typical, unimaginative dinosaur head coach who inexplicably keeps getting hired by NFL teams.  Coaches like him and Mularkey are why the NFL has the Rooney Rule (although it doesn't seem to be working).  

I assumed Coughlin was going to pull a Pat O'Reilly when he took the Jax job.  He couldn't get a coaching job due to age concerns so he takes a GM job and at the first sign of trouble axes Marrone and installs himself as HC and GM.

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6 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:


Seemed kinda implicit from your post. I dunno.

 

Then your reading comprehension isn't very good.  

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1 minute ago, mannc said:

Then your reading comprehension isn't very good.  


Well, that's like your opinion, man.

 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:12 PM, Shaw66 said:

At least there's a plan. Whaley and Marrone and Rex all seemed to be winging it.  

 

I disagree.

 

Rex had a plan he just couldn't execute it.  When he arrived  he said we don't have a Peyton Manning or Drew Brees type QB so instead of waiting around for one, lets get a decent QB that can protect the football and establish a strong run game and build a bully on defense and make a run at this thing.  He got it half right.  His offense was top 1/3 of the league in scoring both years.  His run game was #1.

 

he certainly had the talent to build a strong a defense but for some reason, could not.  If he had, we probably make playoffs in 2015 and Rex would still be here with several playoff appearances in his pocket.

 

He had a plan. Couldn't execute all of it.

Edited by reddogblitz
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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Disagree Gunner. He was carried by a great defense and his offense (his specialty) sucked.  It’s been the same way in Jacksonville.  He has shown no ability to develop qbs and his offensive attack is from a different decade.  He will get fired this year.

 

I don't think of Marrone as a guy who has a "speciality." He isn't a schematics guy. He is a guy who gets his side prepared and they go out and play hard. Buffalo didn't have a great defense before Marrone and nor did Jacksonville. Jax the year before he got there were good in yards but sucked in points. They have been top 5 in both for both seasons since he got there. I don't think it is coincidence that teams he goes to end up having suffocating defenses and unimaginative offenses. That is the team he WANTS to build and his record of hiring D Coordinators is pretty excellent. I think Marrone is a guy with a plan and an approach he wants his team to have. I watch Jacksonville and I see, not even talking schematics but attitude and approach, things that were there in his Bills teams too. 

 

I am not arguing for him as a top quality NFL Head Coach. I am arguing he is a guy who is a capable Head Coach in this league. To me none of those others - Mularkey, Jauron, Williams, Gailey or a half hearted Rex Ryan were. 

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19 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

That's exactly where I'm at. This notion of replicating what the Patriots have done is a pipe dream.

 

The Bills window is not YEARS from now. We have the HC, QB, and OC all going into year 2 together. That's more continuity than the Bears or the Rams, for instance, who made quantum leaps immediately upon hiring a NEW HC/OC in the QB's 2nd year. As far as the roster rebuild, that could get old quickly. They've had some time to develop a roster they're comfortable with. 

 

With Allen on his rookie deal, the time to win starts now.

 

^^^

 

17 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

If Allen and McD are going to win for 10 years, and I think they can, I can wait another year to get there. 

 

The reality is that a QB who doesn't show significant improvement in his second year as a starter isn't likely to get significantly better later in his career.  How a young QB looks at the end of his second season starter pretty much exposes his ceiling.  Drew Brees is the only great QB since 2000 who had an unimpressive second year as a starter who later blossomed into more than a "decent" QB of the caliber of Tannehill or Cutler.  Most who don't make significant improvement in the areas where they're weakest as sophomore starters may commonly decline.

 

If Patrick Mahomes doesn't improve greatly in his second season as a starter, he's still going to be a good/great NFL QB because he played so spectacularly as a first year starter.  Allen didn't play well for an NFL QB as a rookie.   He made plays with his legs, not so much with his arm, and that needs to change if he's going to become a true franchise QB.   How much he improves will be a good indicator of what kind of QB he'll become but most QBs only improve incrementally after their second season as starter.

 

As for McDermott, if he can't produce a decent team -- minimum 8 wins without significant injuries, a positive scoring differential, half as many blowouts (losses by more than 20 or more points), an offense and defense at least in the top half of the league (16 or better) -- in his third season as HC without a team that fits his model, then he's not likely to magically turn things around in his fourth or even his fifth year.

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1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

 

The reality is that ....

 

If Patrick Mahomes doesn't improve greatly in his second season as a starter, he's still going to be a good/great NFL QB because ....

 

As for McDermott, if he can't produce a decent team -- minimum 8 wins ....

Congratulations on your continuing definitions of reality.   In your world, there are absolute rules; anyone who violates your rules fails.  

 

Your world is interesting, I'll give you that.  I can't be bothered with it.  

 

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2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

^^^

 

 

The reality is that a QB who doesn't show significant improvement in his second year as a starter isn't likely to get significantly better later in his career.  How a young QB looks at the end of his second season starter pretty much exposes his ceiling.  Drew Brees is the only great QB since 2000 who had an unimpressive second year as a starter who later blossomed into more than a "decent" QB of the caliber of Tannehill or Cutler.  Most who don't make significant improvement in the areas where they're weakest as sophomore starters may commonly decline.

 

If Patrick Mahomes doesn't improve greatly in his second season as a starter, he's still going to be a good/great NFL QB because he played so spectacularly as a first year starter.  Allen didn't play well for an NFL QB as a rookie.   He made plays with his legs, not so much with his arm, and that needs to change if he's going to become a true franchise QB.   How much he improves will be a good indicator of what kind of QB he'll become but most QBs only improve incrementally after their second season as starter.

 

As for McDermott, if he can't produce a decent team -- minimum 8 wins without significant injuries, a positive scoring differential, half as many blowouts (losses by more than 20 or more points), an offense and defense at least in the top half of the league (16 or better) -- in his third season as HC without a team that fits his model, then he's not likely to magically turn things around in his fourth or even his fifth year.

 

 

I disagree with a lot of your post  but mostly with what i bolded.

 

Speaking of turning things around magically,you do realize we are probably going to have 8 new starters on Offensive, effectively an entire new line as for as coaches and players that have been together.   Allen is going to have 75% turnover on his receivers, going to have to work with an entirely new line.  If he doesnt incredibly progress for the firs half of the season I wont be shocked.   Plus likely have between 1-3 new starters on defense.  Yes I can definitely envision him "magically" turning it around in his fourth year.

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1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Congratulations on your continuing definitions of reality.   In your world, there are absolute rules; anyone who violates your rules fails.  

 

Your world is interesting, I'll give you that.  I can't be bothered with it.  

 

 

What other true franchise QB -- somebody whom everybody agrees is an elite or first tier QB -- who didn't show much improvement as a second year starter but "got it" as a third year starter and developed into a first rate QB in the last quarter century?  

 

You might make an argument for Cam Newton but his passing is mediocre, and he's not considered "elite or first tier".  He's led the Panthers to only 3 winning seasons in 8 years ... and Carolina is a very feast-or-familne team during the Rivera/Newton era: if the stars all align correctly, they have a blockbuster season but otherwise they hang out with the league's bottom feeders.   That's hardly impressive.

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44 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

What other true franchise QB -- somebody whom everybody agrees is an elite or first tier QB -- who didn't show much improvement as a second year starter but "got it" as a third year starter and developed into a first rate QB in the last quarter century?  

 

You might make an argument for Cam Newton but his passing is mediocre, and he's not considered "elite or first tier".  He's led the Panthers to only 3 winning seasons in 8 years ... and Carolina is a very feast-or-familne team during the Rivera/Newton era: if the stars all align correctly, they have a blockbuster season but otherwise they hang out with the league's bottom feeders.   That's hardly impressive.

Like I said, I can't be bothered to play in your world.  You go ahead and knock yourself out.  

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I tend to think like this, until I remember that plenty of other teams are improving too.  Ten wins is tough.  It's tough. The Bills have to actually be good to win ten. 

 

It's possible and I would love it. I don't expect it. 

I enjoy reading your posts, but I don't have the same level of patience. Actually, it's not really a matter of patience. If I see TRUE progress and have a reason to believe 2020 will be better, I can wait another year. If they don't make serious strides, then I will lose faith that the following year is going to be that much better.

 

I am not anti Beane/McDermott. My quibble is the timetable. I personally expect to see results in year 3 now that they've had some time to build a roster "in their image." If not, there will be serious doubts about the plan.

 

I really can't think of any modern examples where a successful, sustainable rebuild took more than 3 years.

Edited by LSHMEAB
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6 hours ago, mannc said:

Then your reading comprehension isn't very good.  

 

How many Black coaches should be in the NFL?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Socal-805 said:

 

How many Black coaches should be in the NFL?

 

 

How many brain cells do you have?

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7 minutes ago, Socal-805 said:

 

How many Black coaches should be in the NFL?

 

 

 

Do you mean coaches named Black?  That’s a really weird question.

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2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Like I said, I can't be bothered to play in your world.  You go ahead and knock yourself out.  

You expect them to slowly get better year after year? I'm sorry this isn't the Rockpile days, no team rebuilds for more then 2 seasons. 

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2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

I enjoy reading your posts, but I don't have the same level of patience. Actually, it's not really a matter of patience. If I see TRUE progress and have a reason to believe 2020 will be better, I can wait another year. If they don't make serious strides, then I will lose faith that the following year is going to be that much better.

 

I am not anti Beane/McDermott. My quibble is the timetable. I personally expect to see results in year 3 now that they've had some time to build a roster "in their image." If not, there will be serious doubts about the plan.

 

I really can't think of any modern examples where a successful, sustainable rebuild took more than 3 years.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.   It's interesting.  

 

First, I think we're coming into year two, not year three.  Although McD got a few players in his first year, last year was really the first season where he had a lot of his players on the roster.  This year will be the second. I've always said that 2020 was the year he as to have serious results in the win column. 

 

But I'll repeat what I've been saying for months now.  Their objective is to build something that generates sustained success for a long time, like ten years.  That's what they're trying to do.  They have Allen and Edmunds and they think those two can be the core for ten years of success like the Patriots.  That's what they're trying to achieve.  They know they can afford to keep those two (everyone can afford a franchise QB), and they're trying to build a system that's sustainable like New England has.  If they can do that it doesn't really matter of the success comes in 2019, 2020 or 2021, because 10 years of success is worth waiting for.

 

I don't really care, and they don't either, if you think it must be done in three years because you don't see any examples longer than three years in recent history.  Only one team has built success like the Pats, but that doesn't mean that the only way to do it is the way the Pats did it.  The Steelers, the 49ers, the Cowboys each have a unique success story.  When the Bills do it, their story will be unique, too.  Recent history simply isn't relevant.

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13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for the thoughtful response.   It's interesting.  

 

First, I think we're coming into year two, not year three.  Although McD got a few players in his first year, last year was really the first season where he had a lot of his players on the roster.  This year will be the second. I've always said that 2020 was the year he as to have serious results in the win column. 

 

But I'll repeat what I've been saying for months now.  Their objective is to build something that generates sustained success for a long time, like ten years.  That's what they're trying to do.  They have Allen and Edmunds and they think those two can be the core for ten years of success like the Patriots.  That's what they're trying to achieve.  They know they can afford to keep those two (everyone can afford a franchise QB), and they're trying to build a system that's sustainable like New England has.  If they can do that it doesn't really matter of the success comes in 2019, 2020 or 2021, because 10 years of success is worth waiting for.

 

I don't really care, and they don't either, if you think it must be done in three years because you don't see any examples longer than three years in recent history.  Only one team has built success like the Pats, but that doesn't mean that the only way to do it is the way the Pats did it.  The Steelers, the 49ers, the Cowboys each have a unique success story.  When the Bills do it, their story will be unique, too.  Recent history simply isn't relevant.

 

 

McD & Beanes first year was a total waste of time in terms of rebuilding, we were in salary cap hell and had to cut the excess fat.  The NEXt year is when we started the rebuild by selecting your hopeful franchise QB.  This year is the START of the payoff for cutting excess fat in year 1 & 2. Probably half of our team will be new starters.  I dont expect much this season because of it.  But next year, year 4, Allen now with some real experience and knows his teammates, is when we have the roster and coaches in place for a yea and THAT should be the year where we see exactly what we have been building for.

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Damn if I didn't think the Bills would start out 6-2 to start out with ... This article makes me think I might be right (yes I know my 6-2 is not the same as their 6-2) 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtisrush/2019/07/18/why-the-buffalo-bills-could-be-a-10-win-nfl-team-in-2019/#70b2898b6794

 

Why The Buffalo Bills Could Be A 10-Win NFL Team In 2019

Forbes•July 18, 2019

 

It's very possible the Bills could finish with a 6-2 record at home and a 4-4 record on the road to get to that 10-6 mark.

 

The only losses at home should come to the New England Patriots and the Philadelphia Eagles. At New Era Field, they should beat the Cincinnati Bengals, Miami Dolphins, Washington Redskins, Denver Broncos, Baltimore Ravens and New York Jets.

 

Their victories on the road should come against the Jets, New York Giants, Dolphins and the Pittsburgh Steelers in what will be viewed as an upset. For the purposes of these projections, let's also build in an upset defeat because a season rarely goes according to script.

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It's certainly still too early to claim victory here, but I may need to revise the topic title after this 3-game homestand...

 

I mean, they will be favored in every home game left and is there any road game the Bills shouldn't feel as if they have at least a 50/50 shot in?  Yes, I'm including the game in Foxboro with that statement.

 

Edited by eball

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