Bills Stadium Situation A Big, Big Nut To Crack...

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

24 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Not at all.  I personally find it silly to think that a man who's made billions of dollars suddenly doesn't care whether he makes money simply because it's the Bills.

 

No one in their right mind would spend over a billion dollars without the PRIMARY goal of making it back and then some.

 

I do believe that winning is more important to Terry Pegula than it was to Ralph Wilson.  Did I believe it after he came in and hired Rex Ryan?  NO.  And justifiably so.

 

I'm not a hockey fan, but I'm around enough Sabres fans on here to know that his tenure as owner of that team has not been successful ... if one considers building winning teams as a success.

 

The Pegula/Bills story is just beginning.  But I'll side with, "Rich Billionaire Wants to Get Richer," as the likely headline until I see a reason to believe otherwise.

 

...so then did he categorize in inner circles (forget the link request crap) that the Bills were "Kim's baby"?....perhaps we have a huge disconnect as far as his community enriching ventures versus SOLELY looking for financial gain......why the Harbor Center major investment?......why purchase additional real estate in downtown Buffalo?...why purchase the AHL  Amerks in Rochester, negotiate to take over management of the arena and then pledge $10 mil towards upgrades?....couldn't he find safer less speculative investment vehicles if his SOLE purpose was to make money?....just curious as to why you  underestimate the guy's sense of community.....

Edited July 6, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Hammered a Lot]

19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so then did he categorize in inner circles (forget the link request crap) that the Bills were "Kim's baby"?....perhaps we have a huge disconnect as far as his community enriching ventures versus SOLELY looking for financial gain......why the Harbor Center major investment?......why purchase additional real estate in downtown Buffalo?...why purchase the AHL  Amerks in Rochester, negotiate to take over management of the arena and then pledge $10 mil towards upgrades?....couldn't he find safer less speculative investment vehicles if his SOLE purpose was to make money?....just curious as to why you  underestimate the guy's sense of community.....

I hear Terry is investing in Canada. Details in the future and no it's not land for a stadium.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Not at all.  I personally find it silly to think that a man who's made billions of dollars suddenly doesn't care whether he makes money simply because it's the Bills.

 

No one in their right mind would spend over a billion dollars without the PRIMARY goal of making it back and then some.

 

I do believe that winning is more important to Terry Pegula than it was to Ralph Wilson.  Did I believe it after he came in and hired Rex Ryan?  NO.  And justifiably so.

 

I'm not a hockey fan, but I'm around enough Sabres fans on here to know that his tenure as owner of that team has not been successful ... if one considers building winning teams as a success.

 

The Pegula/Bills story is just beginning.  But I'll side with, "Rich Billionaire Wants to Get Richer," as the likely headline until I see a reason to believe otherwise.

He is pretty much guaranteed a profit, that’s the NFL. The NHL? Not quite so much. Yet, he/they continue to pump dollars into both franchises. 

 

I’m not so cynical as to believe that the only reason for this is more money.

[Gugny]

23 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

He is pretty much guaranteed a profit, that’s the NFL. The NHL? Not quite so much. Yet, he/they continue to pump dollars into both franchises. 

 

I’m not so cynical as to believe that the only reason for this is more money.

 

I don't' think it's the only reason, either.

 

I'm simply stating that in his first major move as the owner, he effectively destroyed what was a decent team headed in the right direction.  And he made money in the process.

[Cripple Creek]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I don't' think it's the only reason, either.

 

I'm simply stating that in his first major move as the owner, he effectively destroyed what was a decent team headed in the right direction.  And he made money in the process.

What part of guaranteed profit can you not understand?

 

They made mistakes, they’ll make more. Give them hell for that, not because they make a profit, Comrade.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

What part of guaranteed profit can you not understand?

 

They made mistakes, they’ll make more. Give them hell for that, not because they make a profit, Comrade.

 

You ARE being rude today.  Ornery, even.

[Cripple Creek]

10 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

You ARE being rude today.  Ornery, even.

I apologize for pointing out the obvious.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

I apologize for pointing out the obvious.

 

@The Bills Blog forgives you.

[Cripple Creek]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

@The Bills Blog forgives you.

People like you and he should stick to the simple topics.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

People like you and he should stick to the simple topics.

 

Clearly, we'd rather engage with simple TBD members.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

36 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I don't' think it's the only reason, either.

 

I'm simply stating that in his first major move as the owner, he effectively destroyed what was a decent team headed in the right direction.  And he made money in the process.

 

That team's ceiling was 9. It wasn't going anywhere.

[Gugny]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

That team's ceiling was 9. It wasn't going anywhere.

 

It certainly didn't get better with a gutted defense and Tyrod ***** Taylor ... thanks to the Pegulas.  But again ... record-setting season ticket sales.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

It certainly didn't get better with a gutted defense and Tyrod ***** Taylor ... thanks to the Pegulas.  But again ... record-setting season ticket sales.

 

No, it kind of floated along where it belonged...with a bloated salary cap problem. 

[BullBuchanan]

Just leave the stadium alone. It's perfect for the market. The only thing they need to do to sell more tickets is win more games. Buffalo needs to focus on improving their economy if they want to replace their blue collar clientele with box seats and PSLs.

[Cripple Creek]

42 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

It certainly didn't get better with a gutted defense and Tyrod ***** Taylor ... thanks to the Pegulas.  But again ... record-setting season ticket sales.

Your old friend Half Baked is to blame for the on the field product, not the owner. 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

What part of guaranteed profit can you not understand?

 

They made mistakes, they’ll make more. Give them hell for that, not because they make a profit, Comrade.

 

I think is pretty insulting to imply he works for the POTUS.

 

His argument is very gungy but not a section of the fanbase (as it is) has not argued before.

[Gugny]

25 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Your old friend Half Baked is to blame for the on the field product, not the owner. 

 

Half Baked was neutered by the point Ryan was brought in and, subsequently, Taylor.  Those two additions ended up making the team suck.  A lot.  And Half Baked had nothing to do with that.  It was all Pegula.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

24 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Half Baked was neutered by the point Ryan was brought in and, subsequently, Taylor.  Those two additions ended up making the team suck.  A lot.  And Half Baked had nothing to do with that.  It was all Pegula.

 

 

Nnnnnh. Not so sure on that.

[Gugny]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

 

Nnnnnh. Not so sure on that.

 

Hiring Rex Ryan mean the imminent destruction of the top 3 defense Whaley was instrumental in building.  There is no way he endorsed that hiring.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Hiring Rex Ryan mean the imminent destruction of the top 3 defense Whaley was instrumental in building.  There is no way he endorsed that hiring.

 

Great built a defense. How'd he do with the O? How about that cap management, too? QB situation? Management of first round picks? Sorry, dude wasn't just high all the time. He was terrible.

[Gugny]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Great built a defense. How'd he do with the O? How about that cap management, too? QB situation? Management of first round picks? Sorry, dude wasn't just high all the time. He was terrible.

 

I'm not trying to tell you that I thought Whaley was a great GM.  I'm just saying that when the Pegulas bought the team, they forced the Rex Ryan hire and gave Ryan the power to handpick his own QB.  And it was a disaster.

 

I know Whaley wasn't a very good GM and I know he made a lot of mistakes/failed to get a QB.  My gripe is with the mistakes the Pegulas made that set this team back even further than it had to be.

 

I am cautiously optimistic that they've learned from that horrible experience.  I love Beane and I like McDermott.  And I really love Josh Allen and a lot of other guys on the roster.

 

So stop busting my balls, Jersey Boy!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I'm not trying to tell you that I thought Whaley was a great GM.  I'm just saying that when the Pegulas bought the team, they forced the Rex Ryan hire and gave Ryan the power to handpick his own QB.  And it was a disaster.

 

I know Whaley wasn't a very good GM and I know he made a lot of mistakes/failed to get a QB.  My gripe is with the mistakes the Pegulas made that set this team back even further than it had to be.

 

I am cautiously optimistic that they've learned from that horrible experience.  I love Beane and I like McDermott.  And I really love Josh Allen and a lot of other guys on the roster.

 

So stop busting my balls, Jersey Boy!

 

Take it easy, BFAM. We good.

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Take it easy, BFAM. We good.

 

[Punching Bag]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I'm not trying to tell you that I thought Whaley was a great GM.  I'm just saying that when the Pegulas bought the team, they forced the Rex Ryan hire and gave Ryan the power to handpick his own QB.  And it was a disaster.

 

I know Whaley wasn't a very good GM and I know he made a lot of mistakes/failed to get a QB.  My gripe is with the mistakes the Pegulas made that set this team back even further than it had to be.

 

I am cautiously optimistic that they've learned from that horrible experience.  I love Beane and I like McDermott.  And I really love Josh Allen and a lot of other guys on the roster.

 

They were new owners and they believed his lines just like front office believed Gregg Williams' lines when he said he had a file system with coaches available for him to staff.

Whaley is like coordinators who were promoted beyond their capabilities but he is the type of person Beane would hire for his staff if not the recent history.

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

They were new owners and they believed his lines just like front office believed Gregg Williams' lines when he said he had a file system with coaches available for him to staff.

Whaley is like coordinators who were promoted beyond their capabilities but he is the type of person Beane would hire for his staff if not the recent history.

 

Even Whaley was smart enough to know that Rex Ryan would negate every ounce of progress made with the defense.

 

I'm not arguing that Whaley was out of his league.  I'm saying that there's no way he wanted Rex Ryan to be the head coach.

 

I apologize to the OP that I've taken this off topic.  This isn't about Ryan(s) or Whaley.  It's about the stadium.  

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, shane nelson said:

Sadly the Bills are a scandal,  heart attack or tragic accident away from being back on the "auction block". We were very fortunate/lucky when the team was sold to the Pegula's.  The only long term anchor is a new stadium.  I agree downtown would be a great investment into the city, but I am okay with Orchard Park as well.  Call me selfish, but all I want is a stadium up to today's NFL standards that can sustain the Bills for the next 50+ years in Western NY. 

This is morbid, but I do wonder if there's a succession plan. I know they have daughters, but no idea if that's ever been discussed.

 

A modern stadium would certainly increase the sustainability of the team in Buffalo if.......were to happen. 

[Punching Bag]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This is morbid, but I do wonder if there's a succession plan. I know they have daughters, but no idea if that's ever been discussed.

 

A modern stadium would certainly increase the sustainability of the team in Buffalo if.......were to happen. 

 

Terry has two children from previous marriage (Michael and Laura) and three with Kim including two girls and a boy (Jessica, Kelly and Matthew). 

None have been reported directly working for the Bills.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Half Baked was neutered by the point Ryan was brought in and, subsequently, Taylor.  Those two additions ended up making the team suck.  A lot.  And Half Baked had nothing to do with that.  It was all Pegula.

I see. I guess that there is nothing to discuss then.

[Punching Bag]

29 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Even Whaley was smart enough to know that Rex Ryan would negate every ounce of progress made with the defense.

 

I'm not arguing that Whaley was out of his league.  I'm saying that there's no way he wanted Rex Ryan to be the head coach.

 

I apologize to the OP that I've taken this off topic.  This isn't about Ryan(s) or Whaley.  It's about the stadium.  

 

No it is clear that Whaley did not want Rex Ryan as head coach.

[Augie]

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

No it is clear that Whaley did not want Rex Ryan as head coach.

 

What IS clear is that yours truly did not want Rex Ryan as head coach. 

 

 

But it’s time to move on. I think that’s what a therapist would tell me.....I just saved a few dollars. Yay! 

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

I will tell ya this, I love the food and services in my club seats. If they were to add a higher level of food/drink in a more traditional seat I would think the cost may go up some for the seat or maybe the concessions increase along with an automatic gratuity? Interesting thought for sure!

 

You'd still have the exclusive clubs with even more amenities. But there's money to be made by creating an everyman's club area.

[billsfan_34]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You'd still have the exclusive clubs with even more amenities. But there's money to be made by creating an everyman's club area.

I like where you are going with this- can the average man/woman in these parts afford it? 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

15 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Just leave the stadium alone. It's perfect for the market. The only thing they need to do to sell more tickets is win more games. Buffalo needs to focus on improving their economy if they want to replace their blue collar clientele with box seats and PSLs.

Good take 30 years ago, not so much any more. The people moving into are young and tech savvy and future Bills games attendees. A new covered stadium downtown will still be affordable. It’s going to be a convention center/football stadium/concert/special event venue. A place that generates money more than 8 times a year.

[PromoTheRobot]

10 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

I like where you are going with this- can the average man/woman in these parts afford it? 

 

Good question. Honestly I think people can afford some increase in tickets. Just look at prices on StubHub and TicketExchange. Early season games regularly go for well above face value. So the market already pays a bit more. Just not sky high Patriots and Cowboys prices.

 

As for inside the stadium, it would be smart if they follow the lead of the Falcons and keep prices reasonable on food and drink. Charge less and you'll sell more.

 

The whole everyman club concept does not even involve any great expense in creating, just configuring your concession area to have a field view. Imagine if there was, along the top of the NEF upper deck where the bathrooms are, a concession stand. But people could stand and watch the game from the rail?

Edited July 7, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[BigDingus]

All this discussion of "all we need is 10 years of winning tradition, and we'll bring in more revenue!" like it's easy or something are just kidding themselves.

That is never a given, and we fans should know that better than anyone. We nearly have 20 years of losing "tradition" right now, and 10 years of sustained success is pretty damn difficult. 

We know in a literal sense that 10 straight years of winning isn't likely for anyone aside from the Patriots, so who else fits the bill of 10 years sustained success? Here are each team's winning season/losing season records the last 10 years:

10 Winnings Seasons: Patriots

9 Winning Seasons: NONE

8 Winning Seasons:  Packers & Steelers

7 Winning Seasons: Ravens, Texans, Chiefs, Seahawks

6 Winning Seasons: Bengals, Colts, Chargers, Eagles, Saints, Falcons

5 Winning Seasons: Broncos, Cowboys, Vikings, 

4 Winning Seasons: Titans, Lions, Cardinals, 

3 Winning Seasons: Jets, Redskins, Giants, Bears, Panthers, 49ers

2 Winning Seasons: Bills, Buccaneers, Rams

1 Winning Season: Dolphins, Jaguars, Raiders

0 Winning Seasons: Browns

 

So you have a total of 13 teams with more winning seasons than losing ones, but IMO only 3 of those teams have truly had sustained success (Patriots, Packers & Steelers), while 7 total could really be argued as having a "winning tradition" over 10 years (when you include the Ravens, Texans, Chiefs & Seahawks).

To get 10 years of "winning tradition" behind us, we'd have to do what pretty much 25 other teams in the league could not do, and we'd have to hope the "build a new stadium" drum the NFL is beating slows down to even allow that to happen. That's not likely either, and as a business, the NFL is constantly looking for ways to generate more revenue regardless of how profitable they already are.

With the Bills being the least valuable of 32 teams, it's not enough that we simply make more profit than some other markets. We're not generating enough cash for the league overall, and that does matter. Our ceiling isn't very high at the moment, but with a new stadium that will allow for some more growth. And if Buffalo continues to improve in actual city development, a new stadium can profit from that growth too. Not saying taxpayers would benefit from pumping their money into it, only that a new stadium will help Buffalo pull more of its weight from the NFL's perspective.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

All this discussion of "all we need is 10 years of winning tradition, and we'll bring in more revenue!" like it's easy or something are just kidding themselves.

That is never a given, and we fans should know that better than anyone. We nearly have 20 years of losing "tradition" right now, and 10 years of sustained success is pretty damn difficult. 

We know in a literal sense that 10 straight years of winning isn't likely for anyone aside from the Patriots, so who else fits the bill of 10 years sustained success? Here are each team's winning season/losing season records the last 10 years:

10 Winnings Seasons: Patriots

9 Winning Seasons: NONE

8 Winning Seasons:  Packers & Steelers

7 Winning Seasons: Ravens, Texans, Chiefs, Seahawks

6 Winning Seasons: Bengals, Colts, Chargers, Eagles, Saints, Falcons

5 Winning Seasons: Broncos, Cowboys, Vikings, 

4 Winning Seasons: Titans, Lions, Cardinals, 

3 Winning Seasons: Jets, Redskins, Giants, Bears, Panthers, 49ers

2 Winning Seasons: Bills, Buccaneers, Rams

1 Winning Season: Dolphins, Jaguars, Raiders

0 Winning Seasons: Browns

 

So you have a total of 13 teams with more winning seasons than losing ones, but IMO only 3 of those teams have truly had sustained success (Patriots, Packers & Steelers), while 7 total could really be argued as having a "winning tradition" over 10 years (when you include the Ravens, Texans, Chiefs & Seahawks).

To get 10 years of "winning tradition" behind us, we'd have to do what pretty much 25 other teams in the league could not do, and we'd have to hope the "build a new stadium" drum the NFL is beating slows down to even allow that to happen. That's not likely either, and as a business, the NFL is constantly looking for ways to generate more revenue regardless of how profitable they already are.

With the Bills being the least valuable of 32 teams, it's not enough that we simply make more profit than some other markets. We're not generating enough cash for the league overall, and that does matter. Our ceiling isn't very high at the moment, but with a new stadium that will allow for some more growth. And if Buffalo continues to improve in actual city development, a new stadium can profit from that growth too. Not saying taxpayers would benefit from pumping their money into it, only that a new stadium will help Buffalo pull more of its weight from the NFL's perspective.

 

While I'm sure Jerry Jones and Bob Kraft would rather the Bills not be in the league, I think Roger Goodell just wants to feel that the Bills are making an effort to increase revenues, even if we will always be at the bottom of the revenue ladder.

[Boatdrinks]

18 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Just leave the stadium alone. It's perfect for the market. The only thing they need to do to sell more tickets is win more games. Buffalo needs to focus on improving their economy if they want to replace their blue collar clientele with box seats and PSLs.

Yours is a tired, outdated take from circa 1982. Things have changed in the last ten years or so, and continue to improve. Also, the stadium thing isn’t about selling more tickets. It’s about increasing revenue and generating new revenue streams. That’s hard to do with a subpar stadium in a cold climate with an entrenched cut-rate pricing schedule. How do you make a substantial price increase for the same cold, bare bones seat? How do you entice the more deep pocketed fan who stays away due to cold weather and a somewhat out of control stadium environment ? As always in sports, winning is far from guaranteed yet money needs to be made. The majority of the league misses the playoffs in any given year. 

12 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

I like where you are going with this- can the average man/woman in these parts afford it? 

Seriously, even at the current bargain basement prices, the average man/ woman is hardly the target market for a pure luxury entertainment product like NFL football games. The current stadium is only about 72,000. A new facility should be around 65000 or so to create demand. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...G4 LOANS PROGRAM.....key is LOANS and not GRANTS....hence you have debt service for the stadium and/or your franchise fee/acquisition cost.....Ralph paid 25 grand for the franchise and in essence had no fee debt....Pegula paid $1.4 billion in cash and he has no fee/purchase debt, unless he is accruing a reasonable ROI as a liability on the books.....forget the CBA as it will NEVER happen....players see the Owners as too rich already and have no interest in stadium funding....US vs THEM....so let's say you build a Lucas Oil type facility (built in 2006 for $720 mil which is about $869 mil today) ....I cannot see Pegula ponying up major cash without expecting payback (thus he is holding a mortgage for his share) or else he would be crazy to do so.....well north of a $2 billion dollar outlay with no return?...why bother?......so now you have to do all of the revenue projections albeit ticket /suite price increases, PSL's, etc to cover debt service and then weigh those numbers against the economy of scale for WNY supporters and beyond without pricing a percentage of fan support out of the financial market...it is NO easy task IMO....do not expect to shift the burden to WNY or regional corporations......we are NOT Dallas, DC Metro/VA or LA with deep pockets...43 years in business as a CFO/financial guy and I'd want no part of forecasting because of the huge nature of variables......

[Jrb1979]

My question to the ones that are against a new stadium is have any of you been to any of the newer stadiums? Its not football but I love Progressive Field in Cleveland. Its a really nice stadium with great amenities. The one level has a family area with games for kids to play. The food was really good and a lot of local restaurants had a booth to get food from. 

 

People have to realize that the NFL and the Bills are about making money. A new downtown stadium with only Bills owned lots for tailgating would bring in more money. Private lots don't earn the Bills any money.  I bet the area will be smaller so more people will go to the local bars to tailgate before the game. Again to bring in more money to the Bills. Tickets will for sure go up but probably to be more in line with the league average. On average the Bills tickets are about $70, I can see them jumping close to the league average of $120. 

[BUFFALOKIE]

In my humble prediction, Pegula will throw his dick on the table, along with the entire cost of a new/refurbished stadium, and say "suck it". I see that level of no phux given. That is what a badadlss would do, no? T&K P are badasses, so this is what I expect.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVqbk9cDX0l0&ved=0ahUKEwiA2uD1oKPjAhXQVs0KHQ1oDLwQo7QBCB4wAA&usg=AOvVaw2ubwj1euVwZK9tuaM7YNTU

Edited July 7, 2019 by BUFFALOKIE