Mr. WEO Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Meh, the Saints had an off night. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorpma Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Meh, the Saints had an off night. Damn straight they did, helped along by a tough and hitting Dallas Defense! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 So you are saying the Bills should be able to easily beat The Rams The Chiefs The Saints The Colts (Oh wait) This team is a superbowl contender as it stands then. Build that defense in the draft next year guys, last nights game proved you can win without offense. 1 minute ago, vorpma said: Damn straight they did, helped along by a tough and hitting Dallas Defense! Or they just had an off night on the road on a Thursday, like every road team seems to have on Thursdays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: And who lost game? And who would be advancing in the playoffs and who would be going home if this was a playoff game? PS: 14 of last 20 SB champions had a defensive HC. The top two scoring offenses in NFL history both had defensive Head Coaches. But it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Charlottebillsfan2 said: Unless you have a top tier QB in the NFL your best chance to win games is build a dominate D and have a running game. But at least a dozen teams have a top tier QB every year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Charlottebillsfan2 said: Unless you have a top tier QB in the NFL your best chance to win games is build a dominate D and have a running game. and be average-good for about 3 years and hopefully you get lucky. Then you have to start paying the players on defense and then that defense starts to fade. See: Denver Seattle Jacksonville Etc etc 3 hours ago, H2o said: Defensive minded teams do win championships as well as offensive minded. The Bucs, the Ravens, the Steelers (everyone forgets how good those defenses were for Ben), and the Giants. You don't have to score 35-42 points a game to win a Lombardi in this league. A top tier defense and a consistent, albeit not prolific, offense CAN get the job done. The last two superbowl winners did indeed have to score that many points to win the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuddyDark Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 10 hours ago, WhoTom said: Couple things: 1. Cowboys (strong D) are 7-5. Saints (strong O) are 10-2. 2. Jason Garrett is an offensive-minded HC. He did lose a HOF TE, his best WR, C and LT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 the psychoanalysis and working of Garrett's approach are best left to Cowboys fans. they are a lot happier these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) Defence still matters. But if I were to bet right now, a high scoring offence wins the super bowl this year in a shootout. Saints, Rams, Chiefs, Pats, or Steelers. If Chiefs or Pats and/or Rams or Saints make it, which there is a descent chance that can happen, it isn't going to be 13-10 in the superbowl lol Edited November 30, 2018 by billsfan11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said: Elite teams have off games. Thursday on the road? Yeah, the Saints hit the snooze button. This was not an example of anything. Saints will drop a 40 burger on the Bucs next week and we'll forget all about this. Thursday night football is a lousy product. I’d be interested to see how road teams have fared overall since it started. I suspect it’s really bad if not downright embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Saints can afford to let it go on road games that aren't going to be a cakewalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 I also think its worth noting: Cowboys I believe have a top 3 defence, maybe even top 2 and they are 7-5 on the season. Saints I believe have a top 2 offence, maybe even first, and they are 10-2 on the season. The game was also played In Dallas on a short week. Taking nothing away from Dallas as they fully deserved to win. But If these two teams were to play again in the playoffs in which the game would be in New Orleans, I would bet the Saints would handle them easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorpma Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, CountDorkula said: So you are saying the Bills should be able to easily beat The Rams The Chiefs The Saints The Colts (Oh wait) This team is a superbowl contender as it stands then. Build that defense in the draft next year guys, last nights game proved you can win without offense. Or they just had an off night on the road on a Thursday, like every road team seems to have on Thursdays. Pure speculation, facts are they got the butts beat by a pretty good defense; that's what happened that's the fact! Watch the rerun on NFL network! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, vorpma said: Pure speculation, facts are they got the butts beat by a pretty good defense; that's what happened that's the fact! Watch the rerun on NFL network! Ok. So in your opinion, are the Cowboys going to go on the road in the playoffs and beat New Orleans in New Orleans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, NoSaint said: I dont think anyone’s arguing that defense literally can’t win a game so this thread is kind of like your drunk uncle posting a picture of snow to refute climate change. also, in the playoffs, this game would’ve been in New Orleans. Huh? I mean there are people all over this board literally whining weekly about how we can’t win this way, McD needs to be fired because he isn’t an offensive coordinator previously, that Beane needs to be fired too because they addressed needs on D, proclaiming you defense is a waste and the only way to win now because game has changed is to pass for a ton of yards only. So no disrespect, but there are hoards of people here and threads whining constantly about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgg716 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Need to stop looking back 20 years just changes made in the last 3 throw into question whether defense first is sustainable. There will always big individual games like that. But its not the trend. And even last night several questionable calls, poor challenges, and a missed helmet to helmet call, literally the biggest rule change in the offenses favor, were needed for them to squeak out a win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, cgg716 said: Need to stop looking back 20 years just changes made in the last 3 throw into question whether defense first is sustainable. There will always big individual games like that. But its not the trend. And even last night several questionable calls, poor challenges, and a missed helmet to helmet call, literally the biggest rule change in the offenses favor, were needed for them to squeak out a win Didn't watch a second of it. This upset win by a decent home team changes none of my views of the game since 1983. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, mattynh said: Who ever said defense did not matter? Retry much no one. But it does not change the fact the number one piece is your QB. That matters more. One game doesn’t prove anything. You haven’t been paying attention. Board has been unbearable about this all season. People ha e constantly argued that offense is the ONLY thing that matters and we are doomed because McD comes from defensive background. Its quieted a little in a 2 game win streak where we put up 65 points, but all season the board was flooded with threads and freak outs. Had several people constantly arguing to me that “game has changed” and we can’t win without a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense. 12 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Most Superbowl winners that have a great offense have to have at least a mediocre defense. Most Superbowl winners that have a great defense have to have at least a mediocre offense. They also have to be well coached (lack of penalties, solid special teams). The Chiefs and Rams need to improve defensively or they'll lose to more rounded teams like the Saints and Steelers. Even the Chargers or Seahawks could make some noise. Screw the Patriots. Great post, agree with this. Hard to win it if one side isn’t at least mediocre. Even that Dilfer led Ravens team had a stud playmaker in Shannon at TE and a 2000 yard rusher in Lewis. Then you see Pats last year pass for 500 yards and lose because the D was so bad it let a journeyman QB light them up. Edited November 30, 2018 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: You haven’t been paying attention. Board has been unbearable about this all season. People ha e constantly argued that offense is the ONLY thing that matters and we are doomed because McD comes from defensive background. Its quieted a little in a 2 game win streak where we put up 65 points, but all season the board was flooded with threads and freak outs. Had several people constantly arguing to me that “game has changed” and we can’t win with a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense. Offense matters about 1000% more than defense. You need an offense that can score in this league consistently. If you don't, your maybe a .500 club, maybe I love how you bang this drum about people saying that offense is what you need the build, and the second a team has an off night you beat your defense matters drum, like it is any different. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said: Elite teams have off games. Thursday on the road? Yeah, the Saints hit the snooze button. This was not an example of anything. Saints will drop a 40 burger on the Bucs next week and we'll forget all about this. We could drop 40 on the Bucs. Bucs won’t be in playoffs. Dallas will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: Or like your loud mouth cousin posting a picture of rain as proof of climate change...otherwise known as weather! I mean, my point wasn’t whether or not it’s a thing (for either climate or defense) but the thought process behind the argument being made of “see defense won a game!” 13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Huh? I mean there are people all over this board literally whining weekly about how we can’t win this way, McD needs to be fired because he isn’t an offensive coordinator previously, that Beane needs to be fired too because they addressed needs on D, proclaiming you defense is a waste and the only way to win now because game has changed is to pass for a ton of yards only. So no disrespect, but there are hoards of people here and threads whining constantly about this. Again, sustainable long term super bowl contention versus winning a Thursday night football game are pretty different convos. Ill say I think there’s a shift happening but that doesn’t mean we should field a JV group on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, CountDorkula said: So you are saying the Bills should be able to easily beat The Rams The Chiefs The Saints The Colts (Oh wait) This team is a superbowl contender as it stands then. Build that defense in the draft next year guys, last nights game proved you can win without offense. Or they just had an off night on the road on a Thursday, like every road team seems to have on Thursdays. Please show me where I said offense doesn’t matter? This is the issue. Never once have I even suggested offense doesn’t matter. But the all offense guys literally preach weekly defense is dead and it’s all offense or you can’t win. Our offense is not championship level right now, we absolutely need to address the offense this offseason and we will. But many of you have proclaimed Beane and McD should be fired because they rebuilt the D and because McD wasn’t an OC first. This week alone after back to back impressive wins, someone started a thread how our biggest mistake was hiring McD over Reich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Had several people constantly arguing to me that “game has changed” and we can’t win with a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense. I'm pretty sure no one here said that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Please show me where I said offense doesn’t matter? This is the issue. Never once have I even suggested offense doesn’t matter. But the all offense guys literally preach weekly defense is dead and it’s all offense or you can’t win. Our offense is not championship level right now, we absolutely need to address the offense this offseason and we will. But many of you have proclaimed Beane and McD should be fired because they rebuilt the D and because McD wasn’t an OC first. This week alone after back to back impressive wins, someone started a thread how our biggest mistake was hiring McD over Reich. don't worry about kooks demanding McD be fired, the board makes this view seem more vital than it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, billsfan11 said: Ok. So in your opinion, are the Cowboys going to go on the road in the playoffs and beat New Orleans in New Orleans? What would have said going into the Giants vs undefeated Pats with highest scoring offense in history? Pats lost and scored 14 points. What about Seattle vs Broncos whomhad the new record breaking highest scoring offense in history? They got crushed by Seattle 41-8. Woukd I say Saints would be the fave? Of course. But I have seen high powered offenses go down against stout defenses many times and in the biggest games. And Brees and all his offensive accomplishments haven’t sniffed the SB in a decade and only even made the playoffs in general a handful of times. The only time they made it to SB was hurricane Katrina emotional season and the one year they had a high end defense that created lots of turnovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Just now, Alphadawg7 said: What would have said going into the Giants vs undefeated Pats with highest scoring offense in history? Pats lost and scored 14 points. What about Seattle vs Broncos whomhad the new record breaking highest scoring offense in history? They got crushed by Seattle 41-8. Woukd I say Saints would be the fave? Of course. But I have seen high powered offenses go down against stout defenses many times and in the biggest games. And Brees and all his offensive accomplishments haven’t sniffed the SB in a decade and only even made the playoffs in general a handful of times. The only time they made it to SB was hurricane Katrina emotional season and the one year they had a high end defense that created lots of turnovers. For sure, there can be an upset. But I’m betting NO all day if there is that playoff matchup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm pretty sure no one here said that... Where is here? This board has 100 threads on this nonsense right now. I can name a dozen people who have been arguing with me that offense only matters point all season without even having to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Rah, rah, rah, sis boom bah ! To correlate the Cowboys beating the Saints as comparable to the Bills is just self feelgood hokum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Where is here? This board has 100 threads on this nonsense right now. I can name a dozen people who have been arguing with me that offense only matters point all season without even having to think about it. Can you cite a single person who argues that "we can't win with a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense"? Pretty sure they were arguing the opposite--that we need such an offense to succeed. Maybe you meant "without" a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense? Edited November 30, 2018 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 Just now, billsfan11 said: For sure, there can be an upset. But I’m betting NO all day if there is that playoff matchup I would bet on Saints too, but come playoff time you can’t have a single off week. It’s one loss and done. If you are an all offense team, you can’t afford a hiccup against a stout defense. Which is why guys like Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, even Manning had a hard time getting to SB or have never even made one. Manning got lucky late in his career thanks to that Bronco defense snagging another trophy for him or his crappy brother would have more rings. While at Indy, he was “one and done” an NFL record 9 times with his high powered offenses and got blown out of SB with all time scoring offense in history when he threw nfl record 55 TD passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, leonbus23 said: Or how about the climate scientists or experienced football professionals Climate scientist? Otherwise known as weather men? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I would bet on Saints too, but come playoff time you can’t have a single off week. It’s one loss and done. If you are an all offense team, you can’t afford a hiccup against a stout defense. Which is why guys like Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, even Manning had a hard time getting to SB or have never even made one. Manning got lucky late in his career thanks to that Bronco defense snagging another trophy for him or his crappy brother would have more rings. While at Indy, he was “one and done” an NFL record 9 times with his high powered offenses and got blown out of SB with all time scoring offense in history when he threw nfl record 55 TD passes. All true Alpha. But.... Would you really bet the field against Saints, Rams, Pats, or Chiefs winning the Super Bowl this year? (All high powering offences) One of those teams IMO are winning this year. I would be shocked if they didn’t and I would declare you right on this argument if one of those high powering offences didn’t win lol Edited November 30, 2018 by billsfan11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, NoSaint said: I mean, my point wasn’t whether or not it’s a thing (for either climate or defense) but the thought process behind the argument being made of “see defense won a game!” Again, sustainable long term super bowl contention versus winning a Thursday night football game are pretty different convos. Ill say I think there’s a shift happening but that doesn’t mean we should field a JV group on defense. 14 of last 20 SBs won by a HC with a defensive background. Top 5 scoring offenses in NFL history - zero SB wins, only 3 even made it. Top 2 scoring offenses in NFL history had defensive HC’s. Top 2 scoring offenses in history combined for 22 points in Super Bowl losses to defensive teams. This isn’t a isolated game, this is one of many examples of how this notion that only offense matters is off base. Can a high powered offense win with a bad D...of course. I’m not saying having a stout D is only way, I’m saying its false to say defense is dead and only offense matters. There are people all over this board smashing there is only ONE way to win, and that’s big offenses only. Even in this thread some have said that. Edited November 30, 2018 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: 14 of last 20 SBs won by a HC with a defensive background. Top 5 scoring offenses in NFL history - zero SB wins, only 3 even made it. Top 2 scoring offenses in NFL history had defensive HC’s. Top 2 scoring offenses in history combined for 22 points in Super Bowl losses to defensive teams. This isn’t a isolated game, this is one of many examples of how this notion that only offense matters is off base. Can a high powered offense win with a bad D...of course. I’m not saying having a stout D is only way, I’m saying its false to say defense is dead and only offense matters. There are people all over this board smashing there is only ONE way to win, and that’s big offenses only. Even in this thread some have said that. Belichick has a defensive background, but unlike any other DC-turned HC, he remade himself by focusing on offense. He's not a defensive minded coach anymore and hasn't been for at least 15 years. That should be factored in. It's not black and white. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: Belichick has a defensive background, but unlike any other DC-turned HC, he remade himself by focusing on offense. He's not a defensive minded coach anymore and hasn't been for at least 15 years. That should be factored in. It's not black and white. Agreed very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, billsfan11 said: All true Alpha. But.... Would you really bet the field against Saints, Rams, Pats, or Chiefs winning the Super Bowl this year? (All high powering offences) One of those teams IMO are winning this year. I would be shocked if they didn’t and I would declare you right on this argument if one of those high powering offences didn’t win lol Remember, I’m not saying you can only win with a stout D. I’m countering the argument that others say defense is dead and only offense matters. Every year is different than the last. People are ignoring all of history to proclaim that defense is dead because of the high powered offenses this year. But they are not even as high scoring as the Broncos were who lost to an elite defense 41-8 in SB. We dont have any Elite defenses this year. We have some good ones, but not ones like that legion of boom Seahawks team. So yes I fully agree with you on who the SB contenders are. But also don’t sleep on a team like the Bears who have a good D and can also score well themselves too. Bears facing a bad D can easily put up 30-40 points. But it’s gonna be hard for that high powered offense to also score that much on the Bears. I still have Saints as favorites becuse they have the better D of all the high powered offenses. But my point of this thread is not to downplay offense, I love offense as much as anyone. It’s to counter this false narrative that ONLY offense matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesus Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Game would have been different if played on Sunday instead of Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 19 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Can you cite a single person who argues that "we can't win with a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense"? Pretty sure they were arguing the opposite--that we need such an offense to succeed. Maybe you meant "without" a Chiefs/Rams/Saints offense? I was saying people said we can ONLY win with offense and that defense doesn’t matter and is dead. 4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Belichick has a defensive background, but unlike any other DC-turned HC, he remade himself by focusing on offense. He's not a defensive minded coach anymore and hasn't been for at least 15 years. That should be factored in. It's not black and white. What about John Fox? He is DC and led the highest scoring offense in NFL history. But didn’t win the SB (lost 41-8 to elite defense) with that record breaking offense and instead won 2 years later when the D was dominant and the passing game sucked and was worst in league that year in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 I just feel like HC's go with their strength.....in McD's case that is defense and it has made a bit turnaround since he has arrived. but in order to WIN consistantly....you need balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Remember, I’m not saying you can only win with a stout D. I’m countering the argument that others say defense is dead and only offense matters. Every year is different than the last. People are ignoring all of history to proclaim that defense is dead because of the high powered offenses this year. But they are not even as high scoring as the Broncos were who lost to an elite defense 41-8 in SB. We dont have any Elite defenses this year. We have some good ones, but not ones like that legion of boom Seahawks team. So yes I fully agree with you on who the SB contenders are. But also don’t sleep on a team like the Bears who have a good D and can also score well themselves too. Bears facing a bad D can easily put up 30-40 points. But it’s gonna be hard for that high powered offense to also score that much on the Bears. I still have Saints as favorites becuse they have the better D of all the high powered offenses. But my point of this thread is not to downplay offense, I love offense as much as anyone. It’s to counter this false narrative that ONLY offense matters. Nope you’re right it definitely doesn’t only matter. But I will say an elite offence is way more important than an elite defence in 2018 NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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