NewEraBills Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 Talent is an issue for sure. But to me, it's more than that. Remember that time we beat Baltimore 23-20. We picked off Flacco five times and was constantly in his face? Do you guys remember that? Well that OL had Pro Bowl players on it. The Ravens couldn't run or pass that day. The struggled that entire season. That line consisted of Mount McKinney, Kelechi Osemele, Gino Gradkowski, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher. McKinney was replaced early in the season by Eugene Monroe through a trade. Flacco was sacked 48 times that season, second only to Tannehill who was sacked the most. Guess who was the coach of that OL? The Ravens bring Juan Castillo in fresh off of their SB victory and Castillo made these guys look bad. Their OL penalty rate was the highest it ever was, guys missed blocks like crazy. The Ravens rushing attack went into the cellar. Kubiak and Dennison came in and corrected the ship in one season. When they left the OL went straight back to hell. So yeah, it's talent on the one hand, but Juan's lack of success in Baltimore gives me a lot of concern and with the way our OL was last year even with Cogs and Wood, it still had some major issues and to me those issues have everything to do with the OL coach.
NoSaint Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 4:10 PM, billsfan11 said: While Castillo should share lots of the blame, at the end of the day the Bills really don't have much talent on their o line Expand I do sometimes hold the coach accountable for not being able to stump for the players he needs.
3rdand12 Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 4:14 PM, pinmike13 said: Being pushed backwards 10 yards into your QB every snap to me is lack of talent or brute strength Expand that was just the center. On 8/27/2018 at 8:17 PM, Peter said: We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success. His name was Aaron Kromer. He was under contract and ours if we wanted him. Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. Expand i might agree. but Kromer was a bit of a loose cannon it seemed......... On 8/27/2018 at 9:28 PM, Mango said: Shiite. I forgot about Kromer. That’s kind of ruined my day now. Thanks for the reminder... Expand Dennison. hurts a little doesn't it. like you want to punch someone in the face. for ruining what Kromer had going. On 8/28/2018 at 12:29 AM, 26CornerBlitz said: Those pesky apostrophes are even more trouble. Expand punctuation . dearth of mankind On 8/28/2018 at 12:48 AM, Happy Gilmore said: I thought Aaron Kromer did not want to be in Buffalo, but wanted to follow Anthony Lynn out to LA. So McD let him go. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it is what I thought I remember happening. Expand neither did I heck i wanted to keep Lynn ! On 8/28/2018 at 1:08 AM, NoSaint said: I do sometimes hold the coach accountable for not being able to stump for the players he needs. Expand Unless he does not have enough wherewithal to define those types of players for success On 8/28/2018 at 1:02 AM, NewEraBills said: Talent is an issue for sure. But to me, it's more than that. Remember that time we beat Baltimore 23-20. We picked off Flacco five times and was constantly in his face? Do you guys remember that? Well that OL had Pro Bowl players on it. The Ravens couldn't run or pass that day. The struggled that entire season. That line consisted of Mount McKinney, Kelechi Osemele, Gino Gradkowski, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher. McKinney was replaced early in the season by Eugene Monroe through a trade. Flacco was sacked 48 times that season, second only to Tannehill who was sacked the most. Guess who was the coach of that OL? The Ravens bring Juan Castillo in fresh off of their SB victory and Castillo made these guys look bad. Their OL penalty rate was the highest it ever was, guys missed blocks like crazy. The Ravens rushing attack went into the cellar. Kubiak and Dennison came in and corrected the ship in one season. When they left the OL went straight back to hell. So yeah, it's talent on the one hand, but Juan's lack of success in Baltimore gives me a lot of concern and with the way our OL was last year even with Cogs and Wood, it still had some major issues and to me those issues have everything to do with the OL coach. Expand okay i am going to cry now. thanks i guess. gnight ....
HuSeYiN_NYC Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 Ducasse makes the tackling dummies in practice look like they should get some playing time...
billsfan89 Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 The O-line isn't talented, although the coach doesn't seem to be helping there is only so much a coach can do to mask bad talent.
BuffaloRush Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 It’s certainly a compelling argument, but then again it gets into the whole chicken vs egg theory. Is it coaching or is it the players? Is Castillo not getting the most out of his players? Or is the talent that he’s coaching just not very good? IMO it’s tough to say. While you could say the line wasn’t great last year, the Bills had one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL. Yes his blocking scheme didn’t seem like it fit the talent, he did make adjustments which appeared to make a positive difference. They seemed to be getting average play out of journeymen like Jordan Mills and Vlad. This year, the Bills line has 1 solid starter in Dion Dawkins. The rest of the starters probably would be depth on half of the NFL teams, if not most. So I’m not defending Castillo - he very well could be a problem. He hasn’t coached up the talent given to him. But then again his talent hasn’t been great.
Happy Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 2:01 AM, BuffaloRush said: It’s certainly a compelling argument, but then again it gets into the whole chicken vs egg theory. Is it coaching or is it the players? Is Castillo not getting the most out of his players? Or is the talent that he’s coaching just not very good? IMO it’s tough to say. While you could say the line wasn’t great last year, the Bills had one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL. Yes his blocking scheme didn’t seem like it fit the talent, he did make adjustments which appeared to make a positive difference. They seemed to be getting average play out of journeymen like Jordan Mills and Vlad. This year, the Bills line has 1 solid starter in Dion Dawkins. The rest of the starters probably would be depth on half of the NFL teams, if not most. So I’m not defending Castillo - he very well could be a problem. He hasn’t coached up the talent given to him. But then again his talent hasn’t been great. Expand We were saying this about Castillo last year. It seemed to be written off as a Dennison problem since he was fired, though some of it probably is attributable to him. Shady didn't score a rushing TD until what, week 6 last year? Funny how the line is having problems again this year and Castillo is still around as the common denominator. But yeah, the loss of Eric Wood and Richie is hurting.
Bing Bong Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 I still thought we had that chair throwing dude that ran a great line.
Jauronimo Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 5:42 PM, joesixpack said: This. All of the sudden Henderson is a latter day Tony Munoz? COME ON. Expand Henderson was not a loss at all. He was rarely in the lineup on Sundays. Hope he gets healthy and gets a shot with Houston. Cog and Wood, however, might be missed this year.
ALF Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 Now they have to decide which 5 , OL men it will be and let them get in sync. Experimentation time is over. Until the OL is ready the QB has time for 1 read and throw. 5 sacks in 1st half will get a QB injured sooner or later. Losing Richie is a big difference. I even think he made Groy look ok at C. Getting Dawkins back will also help.
oldmanfan Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 I don't think Castillo is very good. But when you get physically dominated by the guy across from you, get shoved straight back into the QB, that's not coaching. That's just either lack of physical ability or desire.
Figster Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 4:56 PM, Woodman19 said: Think this is clearly a case of having a lack of talent, not coaching. No coach in the world could make this group look good. Expand Bills new OC could have helped the situation in my humble opinion. Its almost like J A was hung out to dry to prove a point and If so, who called the shots? McD? why wasn't Allens run for a 1st down challenged? 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 3:46 PM, Figster said: Bills new OC could have helped the situation in my humble opinion. Its almost like J A was hung out to dry to prove a point and If so, who called the shots? McD? why wasn't Allens run for a 1st down challenged? Expand ...good point 'Fig.......what's a red flag in pre-season anyway?..... 1
Figster Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 3:52 PM, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...good point 'Fig.......what's a red flag in pre-season anyway?..... Expand Especially when your team needed a spark, whats up with that AFL... 1
Spiderweb Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 4:21 PM, SoTier said: This. I'm not a Castillo fan, but let's get a couple of things straight here. Castillo didn't decide on the zone blocking scheme the Bills changed to in 2017 and have kept in 2018. That was Dennison and Daboll. Castillo didn't decide to bring in Ducasse or Newhouse or Bodine. He didn't let Seantrell Henderson walk in FA or trade away Cordy Glenn. He didn't ignore OL in the draft until very late in the fifth round, either. Those "sins" all sit squarely on McDermott and Beane. IOW, Castillo is dealing with the hand he's been dealt by those higher up the Bills food chain than assistant coach. Expand Yes .. he's dealing with the hand dealt to him, albeit quite poorly however.
SoTier Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 5:23 PM, Spiderweb said: Yes .. he's dealing with the hand dealt to him, albeit quite poorly however. Expand Ever hear the statement, "you can get blood from a stone"? Well, in any sport, coaching can only go so far. It cannot make slow players faster. It can't make awkward players nimble and athletic. It can't make a weak arm into a strong one. The best coaching can do is help a player reach his max potential, but if that potential isn't there, coaching isn't going to create it. The Bills OL lacks talent. Maybe Dion Dawkins is a starting caliber NFL OLer, but the rest aren't at this point. They cannot physically compete against DLs that are starting caliber units, and especially they can't compete against teams that have elite pass rushers. All the coaching in the world cannot change that.
SoTier Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 7:30 PM, kota said: The strength the Oline the last few years was from Center to the left side. With the sudden departures of Wood, and Incognito the Bills are now stuck filling those positions with backups. The Bills gave away alot of draft capital to get Edmunds and Allen which could have been used on the line. It's always pick your poison with this stuff. The OLine will shake out and is probably on the list next year for upgrades with the 100 million in cap space we will have. Expand Incognito was 35 in 2017. How could his retirement have come as a surprise? 35 is no longer ancient for an NFL lineman on either side of the ball, but a team has to start planning for the future. Miller's poor play in 2017 should have been a red flag that they couldn't expect much from him if anything happened to Incognito. The Bills hardly ever seem able to address improving their OL or adding depth to it because they're always so damned busy filling holes created by their inability/unwillingness to keep many of the good players they draft beyond their rookie contracts, so they are constantly using the draft to fill the holes they themselves created. If the Bills had kept Stephon Gilmore they wouldn't have had to draft White in the first round in 2017 or trade a 2018 third to get Benjamin. Moreover, if they were so bent on getting a first round QB in 2018, why did they get rid of their entire WR corps in 2018 -- a WR corps that went on to shine on their new teams? The only difference I see between the Bills under Ralph Wilson and his minions and Terry Pegula and his minions is the names and faces ... and better propaganda. 1
TheFunPolice Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) I think the issue is that super talented big men want to play DL rather than OL, especially the interior OL Great DT get glory, stats, and huge money. Great guards or centers do ok money wise but are pretty anonymous. The best linemen choosr early to be DL OL play around the league is only so so Edited August 28, 2018 by TheFunPolice
NewEraBills Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 After watching the game again, I'm not looking forward to this interior having to face Michael Pierce and Big Bad Brandon Williams. If I'm the Ravens, I'd play Tim Williams on rush downs vs Mills. I don't think Mills will be able to contend with the speed and athleticism of Williams, who has been looking really good and ready to make that jump for the Ravens.
Spiderweb Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 6:22 PM, SoTier said: Ever hear the statement, "you can get blood from a stone"? Well, in any sport, coaching can only go so far. It cannot make slow players faster. It can't make awkward players nimble and athletic. It can't make a weak arm into a strong one. The best coaching can do is help a player reach his max potential, but if that potential isn't there, coaching isn't going to create it. The Bills OL lacks talent. Maybe Dion Dawkins is a starting caliber NFL OLer, but the rest aren't at this point. They cannot physically compete against DLs that are starting caliber units, and especially they can't compete against teams that have elite pass rushers. All the coaching in the world cannot change that. Expand Again... He's not shown to be a quality coach previous to joining the Balls either.
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