Sammy Watkins classes it up on his way out of LA

[Magox]

8 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I think the Rams underestimated the money Watkins was going to get in UFA.  He set the market with his three year deal.  The Rams felt obligated to replace him with the 2018 draft clas so weak at WR, so they traded for Cooks instead knwoing they had to secure their investment at market rates with a 5 year deal that they ultimately would have given to an unproven rookie (4 years plus the option). 

 

That's a lot of speculation going on here.

 

What is indisputable is that the Rams let him walk while giving up a quality DB and a 2nd rounder, and then traded a first rounder to get another WR who they ended up paying more than the guy they just let walk for nothing.

 

I think they do value a quality deep threat WR because that helps open up things underneath for them, but it takes a whole lot of spin to justify that Watkins has now been on two different teams who have seen him play up close, in practices, in the locker room who for one reason or another who have decided that they weren't willing to pay what he was wanting.   Right now, the only perceived justification for signing him is his natural talent and pedigree. We'll see how he does this year with K.C, but some of us knew that the trade for Gaines and a 2nd rounder for Sammy who was going into his last year of his contract was a much better trade than many on this site.     And the notion that we could have optioned him for what was it? $13M for that year  was a viable option is silly.   It's silly because:

 

A) This team was never going to pay the type of salary that Sammy was going to ask for when he would become a FA.

B) He wasn't worth the type of money that Sammy was going to ask for nor did they believe he was worth his Option year contract.

C) He has a history of injury issues

D) He was not a positive force in the locker room - that is even according to his own account.

 

So why keep him when you don't believe he fits your long-term plans, doesn't fit the culture of a team that you are trying to build oh and has never consistently produced at a high enough level to justify the $$ that he was going to command?   

 

I just don't understand why so many on this board are willing to die on the hill for a guy who is as unlikable as Sammy.   He's not just unlikable but he never did anything of consequence for the Bills.   It's truly bizarre.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Magox

[26CornerBlitz]

41 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

That's a lot of speculation going on here.

 

What is indisputable is that the Rams let him while giving up a quality DB and a 2nd rounder, and then traded a first rounder to get another WR who they ended up paying more than the guy they just let walk for nothing.

 

I think they do value a quality deep threat WR because that helps open up things underneath for them, but it takes a whole lot of spin to justify that Watkins has now been on two different teams who have seen him play up close, in practices, in the locker room who for one reason or another who have decided that they weren't willing to pay what he was wanting.   Right now, the only perceived justification for signing him is his natural talent and pedigree. We'll see how he does this year with K.C, but some of us knew that the trade for Gaines and a 2nd rounder for Sammy who was going into his last year of his contract was a much better trade than many on this site.     And the notion that we could have optioned him for what was it? $13M for that year  was a viable option is silly.   It's silly because:

 

A) This team was never going to pay the type of salary that Sammy was going to ask for when he would become a FA.

B) He wasn't worth the type of money that Sammy was going to ask for nor did they believe he was worth his Option year contract.

C) He has a history of injury issues

D) He was not a positive force in the locker room - that is even according to his own account.

 

So why keep him when you don't believe he fits your long-term plans, doesn't fit the culture of a team that you are trying to build oh and has never consistently produced at a high enough level to justify the $$ that he was going to command?   

 

I just don't understand why so many on this board are willing to die on the hill for a guy who is as unlikable as Sammy.   He's not just unlikable but he never did anything of consequence for the Bills.   It's truly bizarre.

 

15 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Somehow it's been forgotten that in his 1st two seasons he put up 125 catches for just over 2K yards with 15 TDs with EJ, Orton, and Tyrod as his three QBs. 

 

1) The phrase I think should have clued you in that it was speculative.   You then countered with your own speculation on his situation.  No problem because that is what we often do here at TSW.

 

2) The numbers he put up in his 1st two seasons when he was relatively healthy counter your claim of never doing anything of consequence.  I'd be satisfied if the current #1 WR Benjamin put up 60 catches for 1000 yards with 8 TDs in 2018. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Soda Popinski]

9 hours ago, WMDman said:

Ummm, we got a great pick from LA

And a 1 year rental on a CB we needed.   That was  a great trade.   Without that trade, we don't get one of either Allen or Edmunds.   I'll take what we ended up with. 

[Doc]

9 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So Sammy gets no credit for the Rams improvement?  You honestly think there is as much room for Gurley if Woods and Kupp are their top wrs?  Tyrod won’t have had better numbers throwing to Sammy?  Andy Reid just decided to blow money on Sammy?

 

I can't say how much credit, if any, Sammy gets since we didn't see the Rams without him.  But he'll need to put up monster numbers to justify his Chefs contract.

 

4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Chiefs and Rams front loaded the contracts so when it time for their QB's to get paid (Mahomes and Goff), they'll have room to sign them.  The Bills will be doing the same thing next off-season.  The Rams obviously were more comfortable giving Cooks a long term deal instead of Watkins which tells me Watkins one year tryout with the Rams didn't go as well as the Rams hoped (they did give up a 2nd round pick for him so I can't help but feel they were disappointed in his play).  

 

The Chiefs are taking a leap of faith with Watkins.  It's only a three year deal, but he's eating a bunch of their salary space in his 2nd year.  Watkins looked great in '15 in Arrowhead where he embarrassed their corners just couldn't cover him and that may have played a role in their gamble.  

 

The Chefs will also have to pay out a massive deal to Hill and probably Mahomes in 2 years if he becomes their starter, considering he's only averaging $4.1M/year.

[plenzmd1]

I am surprised some in here are arguing Cooks got the better deal as it’s a 5 year deal as opposed to Sammie’s 3 year deal. I am not sure of the guarantee money on Cooks, but I will make a leap and say it is close to Sammie’s. If that is the case, Sammy has the much better deal. He get another bite at the contract Apple in 3 years, with a huge portion of his money guaranteed. 

 

Model contract act for the future. He is winning at he business side of football no doubt. 

[CommonCents]

4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I am surprised some in here are arguing Cooks got the better deal as it’s a 5 year deal as opposed to Sammie’s 3 year deal. I am not sure of the guarantee money on Cooks, but I will make a leap and say it is close to Sammie’s. If that is the case, Sammy has the much better deal. He get another bite at the contract Apple in 3 years, with a huge portion of his money guaranteed. 

 

Model contract act for the future. He is winning at he business side of football no doubt. 

Cooks got 50 million guaranteed. 

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Cooks got 50 million guaranteed. 

 

Yeah Cooks got 50 million guaranteed and Sammy got 30 million guaranteed. The Rams could have given Sammy the exact same contract the Chiefs gave him if they wanted to. They just didn't. Because he didn't prove he was worth it.

[CommonCents]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah Cooks got 50 million guaranteed and Sammy got 30 million guaranteed. The Rams could have given Sammy the exact same contract the Chiefs gave him if they wanted to. They just didn't. Because he didn't prove he was worth it.

That’s obvious to anyone that’s not take invested in Watkins. Some just can’t let it go. IIRC someone said he was KC’s #1 WR.?

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah Cooks got 50 million guaranteed and Sammy got 30 million guaranteed. The Rams could have given Sammy the exact same contract the Chiefs gave him if they wanted to. They just didn't. Because he didn't prove he was worth it.

 

The market changed after Sammy got his deal.  I theorize that the Rams wanted to lock up Cooks for a five year term that a 1st round pick would have received. 

[KD in CA]

1 hour ago, Soda Popinski said:

And a 1 year rental on a CB we needed.   That was  a great trade.   Without that trade, we don't get one of either Allen or Edmunds.   I'll take what we ended up with. 

 

....and possibly don't break the drought.   

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

16 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

....and possibly don't break the drought.   

 

 

Sammy was on a playoff team

19 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

That’s obvious to anyone that’s not take invested in Watkins. Some just can’t let it go. IIRC someone said he was KC’s #1 WR.?

Yup, clearly paying a guy $16 million/ year is the definition of a number 2 wr.

26 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah Cooks got 50 million guaranteed and Sammy got 30 million guaranteed. The Rams could have given Sammy the exact same contract the Chiefs gave him if they wanted to. They just didn't. Because he didn't prove he was worth it.

Or their hands were forced because they lost Sammy.  

 

But clearly, Andy Reid is a dumb offensive coach.  Our head coach is on his 2nd OC in 2 years. 

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sammy was on a playoff team

Yup, clearly paying a guy $16 million/ year is the definition of a number 2 wr.

Yeah it’s Andy acting like an insecure walrus and throwing money at his Mahomes/Smith transition in his most recent attempt to look like a genius. 

 

Look Tyreek, look at Kelce, they are 1 and 1A in that passing game. Heck check ourlads and it has Watkins as SWR. Look at any fantasy projections for Watkins targets. Do a little research, they lost Albert Wilson, Watkins was brought in to be a better option and not leave a void.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Commonsense said:

Yeah it’s Andy acting like an insecure walrus and throwing money at his Mahomes/Smith transition in his most recent attempt to look like a genius. 

 

Look Tyreek, look at Kelce, they are 1 and 1A in that passing game. Heck check ourlads and it has Watkins as SWR. Look at any fantasy projections for Watkins targets. Do a little research, they lost Albert Wilson, Watkins was brought in to be a better option and not leave a void.

I’d say Kelce was their number 1 with Smith.  He’s possibly the best TE with Gronk’s injuries.  That might change with Mahomes.  And Sammy had a better first 2 years with crap at qb than Hill, who is a one dimensional type wr. Alex Smith is Joe Montana compared to our poop fest of qbs.

 

so if anyone wants to wager on Sammy vs any Bills wrs production this year, PM me.  I do think the one thing that is clear is if Mahomes doesn’t succeed in KC, there are no excuses.  Dude has a great situation to play in

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Or their hands were forced because they lost Sammy.

 

They didn't lose Sammy. They let him go to KC to get the same average salary they gave Cooks. I don't know how you can look at those two contracts and determine that the Rams were unhappy to see Sammy go. Surely they knew the contract Sammy was about to sign. They're not stupid. They didn't learn about his contract details at the same time we all did. Everything is being communicated back and forth in those discussions.

[CommonCents]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’d say Kelce was their number 1 with Smith.  He’s possibly the best TE with Gronk’s injuries.  That might change with Mahomes.  And Sammy had a better first 2 years with crap at qb than Hill, who is a one dimensional type wr. Alex Smith is Joe Montana compared to our poop fest of qbs.

 

so if anyone wants to wager on Sammy vs any Bills wrs production this year, PM me.  I do think the one thing that is clear is if Mahomes doesn’t succeed in KC, there are no excuses.  Dude has a great situation to play in

Sammy vs. Bills WRs? What does that have to do with the discussion? A guy calling Sammy Watkins the number one in KC then calls Tyreek one dimensional, then instead of wagering between Hill and Watkins you offer up Bills WRs? You lack commitment to your own cause.

 

Meanwhile Sammy is glad he came to KC because they are teaching him more routes. Per Sammy. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Commonsense said:

Sammy vs. Bills WRs? What does that have to do with the discussion? A guy calling Sammy Watkins the number one in KC then calls Tyreek one dimensional, then instead of wagering between Hill and Watkins you offer up Bills WRs? You lack commitment to your own cause.

 

Meanwhile Sammy is glad he came to KC because they are teaching him more routes. Per Sammy. 

Honestly, I don’t know what Sammy will do because I don’t know what Mahomes will do.  I will say I think Sammy has much better value than Hill in fantasy.  If there was a way to bet this, I’d would bet on Sammy (he would get the odds in his favor).

 

but Sammy played on a high school offense here with terrible throwing qbs.  

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They didn't lose Sammy. They let him go to KC to get the same average salary they gave Cooks. I don't know how you can look at those two contracts and determine that the Rams were unhappy to see Sammy go. Surely they knew the contract Sammy was about to sign. They're not stupid. They didn't learn about his contract details at the same time we all did. Everything is being communicated back and forth in those discussions.

He’s making $16 million/ year.  He is clearly valued highly.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

so if anyone wants to wager on Sammy vs any Bills wrs production this year, PM me

 

I don't think anyone is trying to say Sammy wouldn't make the Bills better. He just isn't worth $16 million. Two teams in a row made the same decision.

[CommonCents]

A few minutes you scoffed at Watkins making 16/m and playing second fiddle to anyone. Now you say Hill has an advantage and Sammy would get favorable odds because of it. If he was the one, wouldn’t it be the exact opposite?

 

 

[Bill_with_it]

19 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Sammy vs. Bills WRs? What does that have to do with the discussion? A guy calling Sammy Watkins the number one in KC then calls Tyreek one dimensional, then instead of wagering between Hill and Watkins you offer up Bills WRs? You lack commitment to your own cause.

 

Meanwhile Sammy is glad he came to KC because they are teaching him more routes. Per Sammy. 

 

39 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Sammy was on a playoff team

Yup, clearly paying a guy $16 million/ year is the definition of a number 2 wr.

Or their hands were forced because they lost Sammy.  

 

But clearly, Andy Reid is a dumb offensive coach.  Our head coach is on his 2nd OC in 2 years. 

Once again a contract doesn’t make someone a number one wide receiver. Just like the multitude of draft capital spent on Sammy he wasn’t the number one with the Bills. Once again it’s based on this potential word.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Bill_with_it said:

 

Once again a contract doesn’t make someone a number one wide receiver. Just like the multitude of draft capital spent on Sammy he wasn’t the number one with the Bills. Once again it’s based on this potential word.

 

Who was?  I can't wait for this answer. 

[Bill_with_it]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Who was?  I can't wait for this answer. 

Can’t wait to see which one is more 430 yards or 613. 

Or just travel forward int time to the rams same two guys 781 yards vs 593.

two different teams two different qbs and he still could outperform Robert Woods. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver since the end of the 15 season. Once again this is all based off of potential and nothing else.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Can’t wait to see which one is more 430 yards or 613. 

Or just travel forward int time to the rams same two guys 781 yards vs 593.

two different teams two different qbs and he still could outperform Robert Woods. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver since the end of the 15 season. Once again this is all based off of potential and nothing else.

What are you talking about?  Sammy has less than 200 yards  less and 8 more tds in one less season than Woods.  

[26CornerBlitz]

10 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Can’t wait to see which one is more 430 yards or 613. 

Or just travel forward int time to the rams same two guys 781 yards vs 593.

two different teams two different qbs and he still could outperform Robert Woods. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver since the end of the 15 season. Once again this is all based off of potential and nothing else.

 

You did not answer the question. Who was the Bills #1 WR during Watkins' three year tenure with the Bills? Actually it's based on his actual production in his 1st two seasons.  Your revisionist history is interesting. 

 

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

What are you talking about?  Sammy has less than 200 yards  less and 8 more tds in one less season than Woods.  

 

Not to mention Watkins was covered by #1 CBs all season long in 2017.

Edited July 31, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[teef]

43 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think anyone is trying to say Sammy wouldn't make the Bills better. He just isn't worth $16 million. Two teams in a row made the same decision.

i don't know why this is so hard for some people.  sammy is a very good wr.  i don't think he's earned that money yet, (he certainly may), nor do i think there was a possibility that the bills would have retained sammy. they got a second and a player for someone that was as good as gone.  it's over.

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Can’t wait to see which one is more 430 yards or 613. 

Or just travel forward int time to the rams same two guys 781 yards vs 593.

two different teams two different qbs and he still could outperform Robert Woods. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver since the end of the 15 season. Once again this is all based off of potential and nothing else.

You really should start focusing on the talent he clearly possesses rather than just rattling off numbers. He's far more talented than Woods, and I like Woods. It's amazing to me how easily Bills fans turn on players who are traded or leave. Christ: he was a very productive player for the Bills his first two seasons, and he was injured during his third. 

[Bill_with_it]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You did not answer the question. Who was the Bills #1 WR during Watkins' three year tenure with the Bills? Actually it's based on his actual production in his 1st two seasons.  Your revisionist history is interesting. 

 

 

Not to mention Watkins was covered by #1 CBs all season long in 2017.

No one is revisiting anything. He wasn’t the number one receiver for the bills sinc 2015. He wasn’t the number wine receiver for the rams last year. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver for two years those are the facts. Once again all of this is based off of assumption on a huge contract.

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

You really should start focusing on the talent he clearly possesses rather than just rattling off numbers. He's far more talented than Woods, and I like Woods. It's amazing to me how easily Bills fans turn on players who are traded or leave. Christ: he was a very productive player for the Bills his first two seasons, and he was injured during his third. 

I understand he’s talented. You should start focusing on what he has produced. I’m sure Sammy realizes that now seeing how he’s on his 3rd team. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Bill_with_it said:

No one is revisiting anything. He wasn’t the number one receiver for the bills sinc 2015. He wasn’t the number wine receiver for the rams last year. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver for two years those are the facts. Once again all of this is based off of assumption on a huge contract.

 

He was the #1 WR for the Bills in the eight games he played even on 1 leg and he was also the #1 WR for the Rams in terms of the way he was covered.  You are simply incorrect. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Bill_with_it said:

No one is revisiting anything. He wasn’t the number one receiver for the bills sinc 2015. He wasn’t the number wine receiver for the rams last year. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver for two years those are the facts. Once again all of this is based off of assumption on a huge contract.

Um, he was injured in 2016 - Lisfranc. More importantly, contracts are based on projection, not past performance. Teams don't pay players for past performance; they pay them for projected performance. The Chiefs, who are 53-27 the last five seasons and are clearly good at roster building, project him to be an elite receiver. You clearly don't, but I'm gonna go with the Chiefs' opinion on this one. 

[Bill_with_it]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Um, he was injured in 2016 - Lisfranc. More importantly, contracts are based on projection, not past performance. Teams don't pay players for past performance; they pay them for projected performance. The Chiefs, who are 53-27 the last five seasons and are clearly good at roster building, project him to be an elite receiver. You clearly don't, but I'm gonna go with the Chiefs' opinion on this one. 

Good I’ll be sure to book mark this and bring it up at the end of the season when you and the chiefs are wrong. 

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

No one is revisiting anything. He wasn’t the number one receiver for the bills sinc 2015. He wasn’t the number wine receiver for the rams last year. Sammy hasn’t been a number one receiver for two years those are the facts. Once again all of this is based off of assumption on a huge contract.

I understand he’s talented. You should start focusing on what he has produced. I’m sure Sammy realizes that now seeing how he’s on his 3rd team. 

I see his production in his first two seasons as pretty damn strong. He was injured in his third season, and last year he played in an offense that was ridiculously multiple (and effective). He still hauled in 8 TDs and averaged over 15 ypc despite missing all of training camp.

[Bill_with_it]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

He was the #1 WR for the Bills in the eight games he played even on 1 leg and he was also the #1 WR for the Rams in terms of the way he was covered.  You are simply incorrect. 

No I’m not the number support and so days the Rams letting him go. We will discuss this in January hopefully you are still around then. 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Bill_with_it said:

Good I’ll be sure to book mark this and bring it up at the end of the season when you and the chiefs are wrong. 

Oh please. Frankly, you sound like a typical bitter Bills fan who turns on former players the second they leave. I have no beef with Watkins and hope he does well. I wish he was still here because frankly, he's 5 times better than any of the receivers currently on the roster.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Bill_with_it said:

No I’m not the number support and so days the Rams letting him go. We will discuss this in January hopefully you are still around then. 

 

We'll see if you're here since you just arrived in 2017. 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Bill_with_it said:

No I’m not the number support and so days the Rams letting him go. We will discuss this in January hopefully you are still around then. 

The Rams didn't let him go. His contract was up. The Chiefs outbid everyone else. If you think they offered that contract sans any competition for his services, you'd be wrong. 

 

To wit: http://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-sammy-watkins-20180313-story.html

[Bill_with_it]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

The Rams didn't let him go. His contract was up. The Chiefs outbid everyone else. If you think they offered that contract sans any competition for his services, you'd be wrong. 

 

To wit: http://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-sammy-watkins-20180313-story.html

Man do you live under a rock. The rams let Sammy go and paid 81 mil to cooks for 5 years vice sammy’s 3 yr 48 mil. They actually paid more for cooks than Sammy was paid. Cmon. Like I said I’m done on this topic until the end of the season. 

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The Rams didn't let him go. His contract was up. The Chiefs outbid everyone else. If you think they offered that contract sans any competition for his services, you'd be wrong. 

 

To wit: http://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/la-sp-rams-sammy-watkins-20180313-story.html

 

This is exactly as I surmised with the Rams underestimating the market.

 

"The Rams took a calculated risk, choosing to franchise tag safety Lamarcus Joyner rather than receiver Sammy Watkins.

 

The plan was to continue to pursue Watkins with the hope that demand for his services on the free-agent market would not put him out of reach.

 

The market has spoken."

Edited July 31, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[wppete]

Sammy Watkins trade up and pick goes down as one of the worst draft picks in Bills history. BUST!

[dave mcbride]

21 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Man do you live under a rock. The rams let Sammy go and paid 81 mil to cooks for 5 years vice sammy’s 3 yr 48 mil. They actually paid more for cooks than Sammy was paid. Cmon. Like I said I’m done on this topic until the end of the season. 

???????

 

Brandon Cooks is a very good player!  They had to shell out more for him (in terms of years; the per-year numbers are the same) because they failed to re-sign Watkins. They also *traded* for him, and had to give up a first to get him. That trade was done partly out of desperation (as the LA Times reported, they misjudged the exploding market for WRs this offseason) because they are built to win now and are going to have to face off against a vastly improved 49ers team this season plus a Seattle team that will pretty much always get to 9 wins given who their qb is. Anyway, two players can both be really good, you know. 62.5 percent of Watkins salary is guaranteed, and 60.4 percent of Cooks' is guaranteed. Watkins will go on the open market again at age 27 in three years, and if he produces, he will make a lot more money in five years time than Cooks makes in his five years. 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by dave mcbride

[GoBills808]

44 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Oh please. Frankly, you sound like a typical bitter Bills fan who turns on former players the second they leave. I have no beef with Watkins and hope he does well. I wish he was still here because frankly, he's 5 times better than any of the receivers currently on the roster.

Watkins ain’t 5 times better than Benjamin.

[dave mcbride]

31 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Watkins ain’t 5 times better than Benjamin.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm guessing that Benjamin's 40 time is now in the 4.9 neighborhood. I'd bet good money that Charles Clay is faster than him.