Why Is Our Government Putting People In Cages?

[4merper4mer]

Just now, GG said:

 

I'll take, "Because those countries adapt their immigration laws in line with economic needs?" for $100.

 

US immigration laws haven't changed in nearly 3 decades despite the huge need for low skill labor.

Plus it is a long swim from anywhere to New Zealand.  What has Ardern done to make sure the Salvadoran kids aren't drowning?

[DC Tom]

7 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

How many migrant farm laborers do you know? Maids? Construction laborers?

 

 

 

None, a lot, and a lot.  What the !@#$ do you think "trades" means?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, GG said:

 

I'll take, "Because those countries adapt their immigration laws in line with economic needs?" for $100.

 

US immigration laws haven't changed in nearly 3 decades despite the huge need for low skill labor.

 

Have a look at this article:

 

http://insidestory.org.au/how-many-migrants-come-to-australia-each-year/

 

Especially noteworthy:

 

Quote

If 800,000 new migrants were arriving each year without being offset by a large number of people also leaving, then we would definitely notice dramatic differences in everyday terms. It would put significant strain on schools, hospitals, roads, public transport, housing and other services and infrastructure.

 

By contrast, in the US, we've taken in a MILLION people a year on average from 2000-2016.

 

What kind of impact has THAT had on our country's resources?

 

Yeah. We need a change in immigration policy. That number needs to be halved at the very least.

 

1 minute ago, DC Tom said:

 

None, a lot, and a lot.  What the !@#$ do you think "trades" means?

 

Laborers aren't tradesmen. More often than not, they do the menial work on the jobsite: hauling stuff, cleaning up, digging. And maid is now a trade?

 

[4merper4mer]

6 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

And this right here is the root of the problem.

 

This is why the penalties for hiring illegals need to be draconian, to the point of potentially bankrupting such businesses. It just can't be tolerated.

 

 

There are many roots and almost all of them fake giving a crap about the individuals involved.  And by individuals I mean both the migrants and the US citizens that may be directly or indirectly harmed by their migration.

 

In fact the main root to all of this on either side is that individuals are yet again defined as part of a group.  Granted some of that is done because of volume and legitimate expediency, but if we're being honest most of it is done in an effort to exploit to an end.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

There are many roots and almost all of them fake giving a crap about the individuals involved.  And by individuals I mean both the migrants and the US citizens that may be directly or indirectly harmed by their migration.

 

In fact the main root to all of this on either side is that individuals are yet again defined as part of a group.  Granted some of that is done because of volume and legitimate expediency, but if we're being honest most of it is done in an effort to exploit to an end.  

 

Look, I understand that there are some legitimate asylum seekers out there. People who have a government that is actively persecuting them (see: Syrian Christians, Soviet Jews back in the 70s-80s). Those people deserve a shot.

 

Coming here to simply improve your economic outlook isn't asylum-seeking, and should be treated differently, and with many more obstacles.

 

[GG]

4 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Have a look at this article:

 

http://insidestory.org.au/how-many-migrants-come-to-australia-each-year/

 

 

 

Are you that special type of an idiot who provides links that contradict your theories?  The main point of the article is that Australia has a formal plan in place to allow temporary workers. 

 

What is the USA's equivalent?  Do you want me to bring up your position in the debates from 2007 when GOP scuttled a plan that would have formalized a guest worker program similar to what you're lauding Australia for?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

Are you that special type of an idiot who provides links that contradict your theories?  The main point of the article is that Australia has a formal plan in place to allow temporary workers. 

 

What is the USA's equivalent?  Do you want me to bring up your position in the debates from 2007 when GOP scuttled a plan that would have formalized a guest worker program similar to what you're lauding Australia for?

 

Let's hear your plan, then. More specifically, I'd like to know how you would intend to assure that "guest workers" under any proposal you support would leave when their guest worker status is up. That's my main issue with any of these ideas. Australia, from what i've read is VERY strict on border control and visa enforcement issues. Much stricter than we are.

 

Would you be supportive of no-tolerance enforcement if a "guest worker" program was created to ease some of these supposedly critical labor shortages?

 

How would you deal with employers in violation under this kind of a program?

 

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'm changing my tactic in this thread.

 

I'll take you all at your word that you are genuinely concerned about child trafficking victims. That we can't know for sure which adults are lying about the children they're traveling with.

 

Luckily there's an easy solution:

 

https://dnacenter.com/blog/long-take-get-dna-paternity-test-results/

 

Paternity test results take 1-2 days and they cost a maximum of $500. Let's say we ran it on 20,000 adult men. That would cost at most a total of $10 million, or 0.00025% of the US federal budget in 2017.

 

We all agree that separating parents from their children is wrong. We all agree that even if the parents are wrong for illegally crossing the border, the children don't deserve to be punished with forced separation from the only family they know.

 

So who here would support a policy that ended zero-tolerance family separation and replaced it with state funded paternity tests?

 

Interesting thought.  Expect that it is only solving a portion of the problem, as it seems that only a portion (less than 50% - based on piecing together info from various articles) of the children in the detention centers that have been apprehended were brought into the system along with an adult/adults.

 

And as, again piecing together from various articles, it appears that asking for asylum at a border check point rather doesn't result in the adults & children getting separated, it would seem that the most efficient route to allow the families to stay together would be to have them come into the system there.  Could probably increase the resources available at the check points more efficiently than adding the DNA collection.  (The DNA collection itself rendering issues as 1st time illegal immigration violations are only misdemeanor offenses, but my understanding is that typically only those charged with felonies are required to provide samples in most states.  I'd expect the ACLU would take significant issue with it.)

 

Would require a change to the law to happen, so it won't happen.

 

Cool that you are trying to "think outside the box" and find a reasonable solution.  Expect that the true solution will necessarily include GG's point that we'd be better served by helping Central & Southern American countries improve their own domestic conditions and that when they improve, so will our illegal immigration problem.

 

And the final thought on this, for this post anyway, is that we don't know what percentage of the asylum seekers (that are actually families looking for a better life) are truly displaced due to persecution / fear of death staying in their native lands and what percentage are merely seeking a better life.  If we default to letting people claiming without proof that they are asylum seekers jump the line, so to speak, we will greatly increase the number of asylum seekers at our southern border.  We REALLY need to fix the entire system and have needed to do so since at minimum the early '00's.

 

Sorry for this rambling a bit.

 

[Azalin]

31 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

 Australia, from what i've read is VERY strict on border control and visa enforcement issues. Much stricter than we are.

 

 

Border control? Who does Australia share a border with?

[GG]

21 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Let's hear your plan, then. More specifically, I'd like to know how you would intend to assure that "guest workers" under any proposal you support would leave when their guest worker status is up. That's my main issue with any of these ideas. Australia, from what i've read is VERY strict on border control and visa enforcement issues. Much stricter than we are.

 

Would you be supportive of no-tolerance enforcement if a "guest worker" program was created to ease some of these supposedly critical labor shortages?

 

How would you deal with employers in violation under this kind of a program?

 

Appreciate you throwing in strawmen arguments when you are asking for a solution.  Just the way that you framed your argument means you aren't interested in finding a solution. 

 

The same thing happened in 2006/2007 around the fake "amnesty" outrage.  And of course, just as many predicted a golden opportunity to address the problem was missed and things got progressively worse. 

 

The real solution has to be a multi pronged approach where migration is tackled in concert with investments in the CA countries.  Nothing tangible will happen until you remove the incentive to flee **** hole countries. 

 

The next thing you do is formalize the guest worker program.  If you legalize it, then workers won't be bringing entire families over because there's zero incentive to do so.   

 

Contrary to popular belief, most foreign workers would prefer to stay at home or to return home if they didn't live in crappy environments.   

[outsidethebox]

1 minute ago, Azalin said:

 

Border control? Who does Australia share a border with?

I believe Gondor shares a border with them.

[Azalin]

Just now, westside said:

I believe Gondor shares a border with them.

 

 

There goes the last of my coffee.....

[Tiberius]

 

 

Seeking amnesty is not a crime, child abuse this though. Don't think for a second people won't sue, press for charges and demand investigations. 

 

Quote

Remember, no one is talking (yet) about prosecuting federal employees; we are talking about gaining access to the children and investigating their condition. That we are even talking about these scenarios should underscore how outrageous is the policy and how morally deficient are the politicians, primarily the president, who permit it to go on. When we get down to arguing about who has authority to stop child abuse directed by the president and his attorney general, we truly are in a different universe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/06/20/its-this-simple-report-the-abuse/?utm_term=.2b0f3e377c3a

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

10 minutes ago, GG said:

Contrary to popular belief, most foreign workers would prefer to stay at home or to return home if they didn't live in crappy environments.   

 

Great! Then let's facilitate their doing so. Shut the border down, initiate a guest worker program with VERY tight controls, and be done with it.

 

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

Seeking amnesty is not a crime, child abuse this though. Don't think for a second people won't sue, press for charges and demand investigations. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/06/20/its-this-simple-report-the-abuse/?utm_term=.2b0f3e377c3a

Washington Post.

 

 

Nope.

 

[DC Tom]

 

If it's child abuse to not have kids accompany their parents in to prison, then there are much more serious instances of child abuse in the country.

[3rdnlng]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

Seeking amnesty is not a crime, child abuse this though. Don't think for a second people won't sue, press for charges and demand investigations. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/06/20/its-this-simple-report-the-abuse/?utm_term=.2b0f3e377c3a

Are you finally coming around to the opinion that selling children into sex slavery is wrong?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

20 minutes ago, Azalin said:

 

Border control? Who does Australia share a border with?

 

No land border, but they've got enough of a migrant problem to have these:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_immigration_detention_facilities

[row_33]

DNA tests, and TB tests and fingerprinting should be enforced here.

 

 

[Chef Jim]

17 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

If it's child abuse to not have kids accompany their parents in to prison, then there are much more serious instances of child abuse in the country.

 

I would argue we’re protecting the children from child endangerment from parents that would try to smuggle them across the border. Now I didn’t say it was a good argument, just an argument. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

6 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

The UN Human Rights Council, like the U.N. and many other multinational agreements, treaties, and all of human interaction—is messy. Work together to fix it. Be a grown up country. Don’t just take your ball and sulk off and call names. 

 

International diplomacy requires engaged conversation, even when others are making statements we believe are absurd. 

 

To whoever said this was being duscussed in that global conspiracy thread, sorry I missed it. I don’t engage in the conspiracy stuff that dominates many here, and centers in that thread. 

 

Schumer and his gang by the way are fools. He is right that Trump could fix this with a flick of his wrist, but he could support any bill to fix it too. Either way, fix it and take the moral high ground. Ist ad he and Trump wallow in the muck. 

 

When you have a house which is need of repairs, let's say the house needs a new roof, exterior paint, new windows, a new boiler, and updated electric and pluming, but the bones of the house are sturdy and the foundation is strong, you do the work to fix the house.

 

However, if a house has been consumed by fire, the framing charred, the building gutted and irreparably damaged, the best way to salvage any value is to tear the house down, and rebuild from scratch.

 

The United Nations Human Rights Council falls firmly into the latter.

 

Our continued membership served only to provide the group with it's last shred of legitimacy, providing cover for the human rights abuses of the worst government actors on the planet.  After many years of working through attempted reforms, and having those reforms rejected wholesale, it is simply better for us to leave as a gesture to the world that we will no longer provide cover for their atrocities.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-were-leaving-the-so-called-human-rights-council-1529449869

 

[ALF]

How bad is it in the countries these families are fleeing? This bad

 

Widespread gang violence fuels instability and suffering. Criminals have extorted Hondurans into paying an arbitrary "war tax" for their survival, and those who can't pay often are killed.

 

Honduran police hold a boy whose father was killed in 2016 by alleged gang members for refusing to pay them a "war tax."
"There are no jobs, no justice, no laws in Honduras," said 32-year-old Karen Gallo, who sought asylum in 2018 via a caravan of migrants.

 

Life in El Salvador: "El Salvador is beset by one of the world's highest homicide rates and pervasive criminal gangs," the CIA World Factbook says.

 

MS 13  Most members are of Central American origin, principally El Salvador.

 

Life in Guatemala: Almost half of Guatemalan children under age 5 are chronically malnourished -- "one of the highest malnutrition rates in the world," the CIA World Factbook says.
"Guatemalans have a history of emigrating legally and illegally to Mexico, the United States and Canada because of a lack of economic opportunity, political instability and natural disasters."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/americas/separated-families-countries-snapshots/index.html

Edited June 20, 2018 by ALF

[3rdnlng]

5 minutes ago, ALF said:

How bad is it in the countries these families are fleeing? This bad

 

Widespread gang violence fuels instability and suffering. Criminals have extorted Hondurans into paying an arbitrary "war tax" for their survival, and those who can't pay often are killed.

 

Honduran police hold a boy whose father was killed in 2016 by alleged gang members for refusing to pay them a "war tax."
"There are no jobs, no justice, no laws in Honduras," said 32-year-old Karen Gallo, who sought asylum in 2018 via a caravan of migrants.

 

Life in El Salvador: "El Salvador is beset by one of the world's highest homicide rates and pervasive criminal gangs," the CIA World Factbook says.

 

Life in Guatemala: Almost half of Guatemalan children under age 5 are chronically malnourished -- "one of the highest malnutrition rates in the world," the CIA World Factbook says.
"Guatemalans have a history of emigrating legally and illegally to Mexico, the United States and Canada because of a lack of economic opportunity, political instability and natural disasters."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/americas/separated-families-countries-snapshots/index.html

We need to be able to separate the wheat from the tares. The last thing we need here is Central American tares sneaking in to our country and imposing their war taxes here.

[TakeYouToTasker]

6 minutes ago, ALF said:

How bad is it in the countries these families are fleeing? This bad

 

Widespread gang violence fuels instability and suffering. Criminals have extorted Hondurans into paying an arbitrary "war tax" for their survival, and those who can't pay often are killed.

 

Honduran police hold a boy whose father was killed in 2016 by alleged gang members for refusing to pay them a "war tax."
"There are no jobs, no justice, no laws in Honduras," said 32-year-old Karen Gallo, who sought asylum in 2018 via a caravan of migrants.

 

Life in El Salvador: "El Salvador is beset by one of the world's highest homicide rates and pervasive criminal gangs," the CIA World Factbook says.

 

Life in Guatemala: Almost half of Guatemalan children under age 5 are chronically malnourished -- "one of the highest malnutrition rates in the world," the CIA World Factbook says.
"Guatemalans have a history of emigrating legally and illegally to Mexico, the United States and Canada because of a lack of economic opportunity, political instability and natural disasters."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/americas/separated-families-countries-snapshots/index.html

 

Poverty is not a legitimate reason for asylum.  We are not, and cannot become, the safety net for the world.

 

In fact, the exodus of motivated individuals from these countries only serves to worsen the plight of their home nations.  The struggle for improvement is intergenerational, and when those most motivated for change leave, they set back any chance of improvement.

[Tiberius]

32 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

If it's child abuse to not have kids accompany their parents in to prison, then there are much more serious instances of child abuse in the country.

And warehouse them? Ya right. 

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Poverty is not a legitimate reason for asylum.  We are not, and cannot become, the safety net for the world.

 

In fact, the exodus of motivated individuals from these countries only serves to worsen the plight of their home nations.  The struggle for improvement is intergenerational, and when those most motivated for change leave, they set back any chance of improvement.

Maybe we shouldn't have been overthrowing governments don't there then. Reap what you sow 

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Poverty is not a legitimate reason for asylum.  We are not, and cannot become, the safety net for the world.

 

In fact, the exodus of motivated individuals from these countries only serves to worsen the plight of their home nations.  The struggle for improvement is intergenerational, and when those most motivated for change leave, they set back any chance of improvement.

 

it was eerie that the drowned child from Syria in the picture was wearing a polo shirt and jeans

 

war and famine and real persecution are valid reasons

 

but liberals tell us the world will accommodate whatever the freak we personally want to have happen, so whoop-dee-doooo

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 minutes ago, ALF said:

How bad is it in the countries these families are fleeing? This bad

 

Widespread gang violence fuels instability and suffering. Criminals have extorted Hondurans into paying an arbitrary "war tax" for their survival, and those who can't pay often are killed.

 

Honduran police hold a boy whose father was killed in 2016 by alleged gang members for refusing to pay them a "war tax."
"There are no jobs, no justice, no laws in Honduras," said 32-year-old Karen Gallo, who sought asylum in 2018 via a caravan of migrants.

 

Life in El Salvador: "El Salvador is beset by one of the world's highest homicide rates and pervasive criminal gangs," the CIA World Factbook says.

 

MS 13  Most members are of Central American origin, principally El Salvador.

 

Life in Guatemala: Almost half of Guatemalan children under age 5 are chronically malnourished -- "one of the highest malnutrition rates in the world," the CIA World Factbook says.
"Guatemalans have a history of emigrating legally and illegally to Mexico, the United States and Canada because of a lack of economic opportunity, political instability and natural disasters."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/americas/separated-families-countries-snapshots/index.html

Is this supposed to make me feel pity toward the migrants?
 

[Tiberius]

Just now, joesixpack said:

Is this supposed to make me feel pity toward the migrants?
 

You? Doubt it 

[IDBillzFan]

11 hours ago, Buftex said:

And that right there is what makes you so repulsive. You know better, but you take glee. You are like a walking, talking, typing Chinese finger trap. Smug, hypocritical and so high and mighty.  Keep telling everyone you genuinely can not stand Trump, but take every opportunity you can find to contort your ethiics to support his bull ****.  

 

Know better than what? To mock anonymous people on an obscure website dedicated to a bad football team?  Gee, someone get you to a safe room and some play-doh.

 

 

Anyone who has paid attention to my posts here knows I have hated Trump from the beginning. There is very little to like about the Trump, the human. He's brash, rude, and surrounds himself with questionable people, at best.  His sycophants are annoying as all hell. Just listening to him speak is a chore.

 

Sound familiar? It should, because he is very much the spitting image of Barack Obama, the human, with a few major differences, not the least of which is at least Trump has somehow managed to improve the lives of minorities from an employment standpoint. Obama couldn't even do that, in spite of all the fanboys cheering him on every day.

 

So you essentially hate the man you've loved for the last eight years, and watching everyone meltdown over that irony is something I wish I could package and sell. 

 

[row_33]

Australia has a refugee camp system where you are whisked off to it and need sponsorship or right back you go.

 

Kind of interesting as Oz has about the same land area as the continental US.....

 

 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

Know better than what? To mock anonymous people on an obscure website dedicated to a bad football team?  Gee, someone get you to a safe room and some play-doh.

 

 

Anyone who has paid attention to my posts here knows I have hated Trump from the beginning. There is very little to like about the Trump, the human. He's brash, rude, and surrounds himself with questionable people, at best.  His sycophants are annoying as all hell. Just listening to him speak is a chore.

 

Sound familiar? It should, because he is very much the spitting image of Barack Obama, the human, with a few major differences, not the least of which is at least Trump has somehow managed to improve the lives of minorities from an employment standpoint. Obama couldn't even do that, in spite of all the fanboys cheering him on every day.

 

So you essentially hate the man you've loved for the last eight years, and watching everyone meltdown over that irony is something I wish I could package and sell. 

 

Saying Trump is a spitting imagine of Obama just shows how diseased your brain is. 

 

Just as stupid as the other poster who declared Trump is a Ronald Reagan clone. 

[GG]

10 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

Is this supposed to make me feel pity toward the migrants?
 

No, it's supposed to show you the root of many problems.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, GG said:

No, it's supposed to show you the root of many problems.  

 

Of course I know central america's a shithole. Of course I know why they come here.

 

I'm just of the opinion that we have no obligation to central americans and their internal prosperity.

 

Would helping them out maybe help curb some of the issues we have? Yes, it might.

 

But the first step would be getting their governments to accept help. Good luck with that.

[TakeYouToTasker]

21 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

Is this supposed to make me feel pity toward the migrants?
 

 

Pity is the wrong word, but you should feel empathy.

 

I don't blame individuals who would seek to come here by any means necessary to provide a better life for their families.  As a father, I would do the same.

 

That doesn't mean we should construct our immigration policies based on empathy, however.

Edited June 20, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[3rdnlng]

13 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Of course I know central america's a shithole. Of course I know why they come here.

 

I'm just of the opinion that we have no obligation to central americans and their internal prosperity.

 

Would helping them out maybe help curb some of the issues we have? Yes, it might.

 

But the first step would be getting their governments to accept help. Good luck with that.

Just about every single instance of impoverished countries has resulted from corruption in their so-called governments. People get the governments they deserve. We can try to help these countries out but the only thing it will do is change how we feel about ourselves. Until the people in the country are willing to change, it won't change.

Edited June 20, 2018 by 3rdnlng

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Pity is the wrong word, but you should feel empathy.

 

I don't blame individuals who would seek to come here by any means necessary to provide a better life for their families.  As a father, I would do the same.

 

That doesn't mean we should construct our immigration policies based on empathy, however.

 

Empathy. I didn't achieve a high score on that test.

 

As to your third sentence, you're right on the money. We need to craft policies that benefit US, not them.

 

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Empathy. I didn't achieve a high score on that test.

 

As to your third sentence, you're right on the money. We need to craft policies that benefit US, not them.

 

 

the empathy test out of 80 where it declared you drooling and 100% Aspberger's if you scored under 50?

 

every man who works with numbers and code couldn't break 25 on that one...

 

10 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Empathy. I didn't achieve a high score on that test.

 

As to your third sentence, you're right on the money. We need to craft policies that benefit US, not them.

 

 

there HAS to be a points system of usefulness to immigrate to another country....

 

maybe they can invent one?

 

 

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

Empathy. I didn't achieve a high score on that test.

 

As to your third sentence, you're right on the money. We need to craft policies that benefit US, not them.

 

 

I didn't score particularly high on the test either, though I find it fairly sociopathic when individuals can't see their way to feel compassion for others who were plunged into poverty simply by nature of being born into a third world country.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

I didn't score particularly high on the test either, though I find it fairly sociopathic when individuals can't see their way to feel compassion for others who were plunged into poverty simply by nature of being born into a third world country.

 

I have no issue with it, especially when countries like Mexico have tougher immigration laws than WE do.

 

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

I have no issue with it, especially when countries like Mexico have tougher immigration laws than WE do.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about policy, I'm talking about personal empathy.

 

As an aside, are you really going to hold up Mexico as an example of how our government should function?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

 

 

As an aside, are you really going to hold up Mexico as an example of how our government should function?

 

 

no. but if a dysfunctional shithole like Mexico can be tough on immigration, it's pretty sad if WE can't.

As far as the personal empathy--I think personal experience has a lot to do with why I have little of it.