MMQB: Why the Browns are making a mistake with Baker Mayfield (by starting Tyrod)

[Thurman#1]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:20 PM, grb said:

 

 

Babble boiled down to substance :

• Yes, Taylor's deep threat played all of 2016 on a broken left foot, but he had one good game so that's irrelevant
• Yes, the same broken foot had him on injured reserve half the season, but one good game, etc, etc, etc.
• Yes, the same broken foot had him benched for eight games after week two as completely ineffectual, but one good game, etc, etc, etc
• Yes, Taylor didn't have anything remotely close to a deep threat in 2017 , but watch me fill a page yakking about (what I call) a few bad throws
• Yes, losing a deep threat in 2016 and 2017 corresponds to a less effect deep game, but that's just a coincidence !!! It's all Taylor's fault.
• Really. I (supposedly) believe this crap.

 

 

 

Crap, disbunked:

 

• Yes, Taylor's deep threat was good enough to have a 154 yard game and yet he according to you did so while near-crippled
• Yes, guys who are on injured reserve for a long time but then come off it are generally off it because they're, you know, recovered enough to play.
• Yes, the same broken foot he was on in the Raiders game, when he blasted past his CB to get wide-open but not seen. Tons of wide-open Tyrod misses that game.
• Yes, Taylor didn't have a deep threat in 2017, outside Clay, of course.. And almost exactly equalled his long-ball troubles from 2016 when he had Watkins for half the year and Goodwin for 15 games.
• Yes, losing a deep threat hurt to some degree. Know what hurt worse, though? Tyrod clearly, visibly, not being as good with the deep balls. 
• Yes, I'm sure you do believe it. You believe anything that puts Tyrod in a better light, ridiculous or not.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Thurman#1

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[YoloinOhio]

Boring! 

 

 

[grb]

17 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Crap, disbunked:

 

• Yes, Taylor's deep threat was good enough to have a 154 yard game and yet he according to you did so while near-crippled
• Yes, guys who are on injured reserve for a long time but then come off it are generally off it because they're, you know, recovered enough to play.
• Yes, the same broken foot he was on in the Raiders game, when he blasted past his CB to get wide-open but not seen. Tons of wide-open Tyrod misses that game.
• Yes, Taylor didn't have a deep threat in 2017, outside Clay, of course.. And almost exactly equalled his long-ball troubles from 2016 when he had Watkins for half the year and Goodwin for 15 games.
• Yes, losing a deep threat hurt to some degree. Know what hurt worse, though? Tyrod clearly, visibly, not being as good with the deep balls. 
• Yes, I'm sure you do believe it. You believe anything that puts Tyrod in a better light, ridiculous or not.

 

You might as well give it up. Not a single person said Watkins was healed coming back from injured reserve. Not the coaches, the doctors, the sportswriters, or the TV announcers. No one. He was still recovering in May last year before the '17 training camp.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/18/bills-sammy-watkins-still-working-back-injury-walk-through/

 

According to sportsinjurypredictors.com, Watkins suffered a high ankle sprain in 2015 and missed two games. He also had surgery to repair a slight tear of the labrum in his hip as well. However, those injuries are not what is dogging Watkins nearly as much as the stress fracture in his foot that he sustained in 2016. Watkins underwent intramedullary screw fixation of his fifth metatarsal in May 2016. The procedure involves the insertion of a metal screw to stabilize the joint in order to speed up the healing process. Unfortunately, as can happen with this type of procedure, the metal hardware was so painful he was placed on injured reserve for eight weeks because he couldn’t play through the pain. After returning to the field, he continued to play through significant pain and was forced to undergo a second surgery in Jan. 2017. It’s not known whether the metal hardware was removed or replaced, but the fact that he is still limited at this point during offseason activities suggests either the team is going really slow with his return because the foot is not completely healed or they are taking an abundance of caution about bringing him back to full speed at this time.

 

Either way, because wide receivers place a tremendous amount of torque on their feet, Watkins slow return is likely to be carefully moderated, especially if he still has metal hardware in his foot. The metal hardware can also sometimes cause significant pain and aching in cold weather, something that could present a challenge playing in the latter part of the season in Buffalo. At this point, it’s probably wise for the Bills to limit him to a walk through while he learns a new offensive scheme under offensive coordinator Rick Dennison. It will be interesting to see how much he is able to do at training camp, because if he is still limited by then, it won’t bode well for his future in Buffalo.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by grb

[Matt_In_NH]

The Browns have won 1 game in two years, they are perhaps the worst team ever right now and they need/want to change that percetpion.  The roster is not that bad and with Tyrod they could easily win a handful of games, pretty sure the Browns want to get some wins, show improvement and will then switch over to Mayfield later in the year.

Edited May 23, 2018 by mattynh

[HappyDays]

 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

BUST

 

 

 

 

 

 

had to

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, grb said:

 

You might as well give it up. Not a single person said Watkins was healed coming back from injured reserve. Not the coaches, the doctors, the sportswriters, or the TV announcers. No one. He was still recovering in May last year before the '17 training camp.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/18/bills-sammy-watkins-still-working-back-injury-walk-through/

 

According to sportsinjurypredictors.com, Watkins suffered a high ankle sprain in 2015 and missed two games. He also had surgery to repair a slight tear of the labrum in his hip as well. However, those injuries are not what is dogging Watkins nearly as much as the stress fracture in his foot that he sustained in 2016. Watkins underwent intramedullary screw fixation of his fifth metatarsal in May 2016. The procedure involves the insertion of a metal screw to stabilize the joint in order to speed up the healing process. Unfortunately, as can happen with this type of procedure, the metal hardware was so painful he was placed on injured reserve for eight weeks because he couldn’t play through the pain. After returning to the field, he continued to play through significant pain and was forced to undergo a second surgery in Jan. 2017. It’s not known whether the metal hardware was removed or replaced, but the fact that he is still limited at this point during offseason activities suggests either the team is going really slow with his return because the foot is not completely healed or they are taking an abundance of caution about bringing him back to full speed at this time.

 

Either way, because wide receivers place a tremendous amount of torque on their feet, Watkins slow return is likely to be carefully moderated, especially if he still has metal hardware in his foot. The metal hardware can also sometimes cause significant pain and aching in cold weather, something that could present a challenge playing in the latter part of the season in Buffalo. At this point, it’s probably wise for the Bills to limit him to a walk through while he learns a new offensive scheme under offensive coordinator Rick Dennison. It will be interesting to see how much he is able to do at training camp, because if he is still limited by then, it won’t bode well for his future in Buffalo.

 

 

 

 

I didn't say or imply that he was 100% healed. I just pointed out the - wildly - obvious ... that if he hadn't been ready to play at this point, they wouldn't have bothered reactivating him.

 

As for the rest of your post, it misses the point. It's a fact that he had some burst when he came back in 2016. He showed it. Examples include the Oakland game and the 154-yard Miami game, but those weren't the only examples.

 

But since you keep ignoring my main point, again and again not responding to it, I'll make it a bit larger this time  ... Regardless of Sammy's health ... Tyrod's deep ball throwing was a ton worse in 2016 and 2017 than it had been in 2015. It was visibly obvious. And the stats bore out what anyone could see anyway.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

BUST

 

 

 

 

 

 

had to

 

 

 

Heh heh. Nice one.

[BigDingus]

On 5/12/2018 at 1:18 PM, grb said:

 

When Taylor had a comparable amount of offensive talent around him in Buffalo as now in Cleveland?

He finished seventh in the NFL by passer rating - ahead of Cam Newton, Matthew Stafford, Alex Smith, Ben Roethlisberger, etc, etc.

Maybe that's worth considering too.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2015

 

And where did he finish everywhere else?

Simply not throwing interceptions & dumping it off all the time will certainly increase your passer rating. 

But leading the 30th-32nd ranked passing offense every year he was the starter shows he was pretty underwhelming in every other category. 

And he had ample talent on both sides of the ball, and he had a team that was projected to compete for a playoff spot since they were "just a QB away" from being great according to experts that offseason. Kyle Orton was 8-6 with this team, with the Bills finishing 9-7 on the year. Tyrod came in and did nothing special. Then every year from there he got worse and more timid.

But yeah, he was so "efficient," and was better in 1 specific category that doesn't reflect how good he actually was as a QB. It's a myth Tyrod was efficient. He lacked situational & game awareness. If it's 3rd & 13, you're down by 2 scores, and there's 5 mins left in the 4th, how efficient is it to throw the ball 2 yards downfield to the RB without going through your reads? What about when the opposing team keeps marching down the field all game, scoring drive after drive, all while you go 3 & out because he won't even ATTEMPT to throw to the 1st down marker? When you see you're down by over 20 points late in the 3rd quarter, is it really "efficient" to dump it off & punt just so you don't risk throwing an INT? 

If he had ANY sense of urgency whatsoever, and played like he wanted to win, Tyrod could've been very good. But the fact his record was 3 - 23 in games we went down by even ONE point at any time in the 4th quarter just further highlights his inability to make the necessary plays required of the position. He rather run 3 yards and lose the game than try to throw for a crucial 1st down & risk making any mistake. Weak.

[eball]

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

Get yer popcorn ready!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 5/21/2018 at 11:27 AM, ScottLaw said:

Don't think it's a coincidence that once Goodwin stopped his Olympic pursuit his play on the football field improved. 

 

I was going to say the same.  For the first time, Goodwin focused on football, conditioned for it, and trained for it.

 

How he got away with bilking the Bills all these years I don't understand.

[SouthNYfan]

14 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

13 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

BUST

 

 

 

 

 

 

had to

 

It said "bad things come in threes"

Does that include pick #3 (darnold) busting??

??

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was going to say the same.  For the first time, Goodwin focused on football, conditioned for it, and trained for it.

 

How he got away with bilking the Bills all these years I don't understand.

To be fair, it was more about injuries and inconsistent qb play.  I really don’t think the training affected him.  He is a small guy who finally managed to stay healthy.  Good for him.

[T master]

Mayfield accuracy will dwarf Tyrod's it won't take long for the coaching staff & the fan base to realize they need to move on from TT unless for some miraculous change in Tyrod & he comes out & just shows a off the chart change in his game !

 

Tyrod has never had a problem with being a great team mate, leader, work ethic, it's just his production that has kept him as a NFL back up in a starters position & the fans inn Cleveland will see it in short order & the dogs will start to bark loudly !! 

[grb]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

And where did he finish everywhere else?

Simply not throwing interceptions & dumping it off all the time will certainly increase your passer rating. 

But leading the 30th-32nd ranked passing offense every year he was the starter shows he was pretty underwhelming in every other category. 

And he had ample talent on both sides of the ball, and he had a team that was projected to compete for a playoff spot since they were "just a QB away" from being great according to experts that offseason. Kyle Orton was 8-6 with this team, with the Bills finishing 9-7 on the year. Tyrod came in and did nothing special. Then every year from there he got worse and more timid.

But yeah, he was so "efficient," and was better in 1 specific category that doesn't reflect how good he actually was as a QB. It's a myth Tyrod was efficient. He lacked situational & game awareness. If it's 3rd & 13, you're down by 2 scores, and there's 5 mins left in the 4th, how efficient is it to throw the ball 2 yards downfield to the RB without going through your reads? What about when the opposing team keeps marching down the field all game, scoring drive after drive, all while you go 3 & out because he won't even ATTEMPT to throw to the 1st down marker? When you see you're down by over 20 points late in the 3rd quarter, is it really "efficient" to dump it off & punt just so you don't risk throwing an INT? 

If he had ANY sense of urgency whatsoever, and played like he wanted to win, Tyrod could've been very good. But the fact his record was 3 - 23 in games we went down by even ONE point at any time in the 4th quarter just further highlights his inability to make the necessary plays required of the position. He rather run 3 yards and lose the game than try to throw for a crucial 1st down & risk making any mistake. Weak.

 

 

"Simply not throwing interceptions & dumping it off all the time will certainly increase your passer rating"

During the year in question, Taylor was fifth in the NFL in yards per attempt. 

 

"But leading the 30th-32nd ranked passing offense every year he was the starter shows he was pretty underwhelming in every other category."

No; it means the Bills called less pass attempts. 

 

"And he had ample talent on both sides of the ball...."

So now the drop-off in the Bills' defense of '15 and '16 doesn't exist?

 

"etc, etc, etc......throw the ball 2 yards downfield to the RB without going through your reads?

I watch every quarterback on every Sunday dump-off for a short gain on long-yardage third downs. The "without going thru your reads" is your crap.

 

".....games we went down by even ONE point at any time in the 4th quarter"

The last five late-fourth quarter games behind by a few points:

1. Jacksonville : Out with a concussion
2. Tampa : Played well
3. Cincinnati : Didn't play well
4. Carolina : Played Well (see Jones, Zay)
5. Miami ('16) Played well.

Personally, I don't want to get into another discussion of ZJ's mutant route or complete lack of ball awareness, but will do so if pushed. Reliving the late Tampa comeback would be fun, and who can forget Taylor's td pass on fourth down to take the lead with 80 seconds left against Miami? That was the first lead of the day against the Dolphins, after Buffalo was down by two touchdowns three separate times during the game. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by grb

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

To be fair, it was more about injuries and inconsistent qb play.  I really don’t think the training affected him.  He is a small guy who finally managed to stay healthy.  Good for him.

 

I guess there can be disagreement on this point. 

 

I personally hypothesize he was injured a lot because his off-season training was focused on minimizing body fat and maximizing his musculature for long jump, and he did nothing that would particularly help him as a wide receiver such as improving his route running ability or ability to actually make catches.  I also think he was worried about receiving or exacerbating injuries that would interfere with his Olympic dreams in long jump so he wouldn't play through stuff other guys would.

 

After Rio passed him up, I think he got serious about focusing football that last season in B'lo and off-season, and it began to show results in SF.  Also per SF roster, he's gained about 5 lbs since his Olympian days.  For him that is 3% of his body weight, maybe that 3% can make a difference, don't know.

 

I believe he exploited the Bills to fund his Olympic dreams and I'm salty about it, but I also have to acknowledge that the Bills FO and coaches at the time enabled this.

[billspro]

18 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

That is a rough first day. He had the easiest windows to throw to in the entire draft class. It will be interesting to see how he handles better defences. 

 

Looks like Allen is having a much better first day! Hopefully that continues.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, grb said:

 

 

"Simply not throwing interceptions & dumping it off all the time will certainly increase your passer rating"

During the year in question, Taylor was fifth in the NFL in yards per attempt. 

 

"But leading the 30th-32nd ranked passing offense every year he was the starter shows he was pretty underwhelming in every other category."

No; it means the Bills called less pass attempts. 

 

"And he had ample talent on both sides of the ball...."

So now the drop-off in the Bills' defense of '15 and '16 doesn't exist?

 

"etc, etc, etc......throw the ball 2 yards downfield to the RB without going through your reads?

I watch every quarterback on every Sunday dump-off for a short gain on long-yardage third downs. The "without going thru your reads" is your crap.

 

".....games we went down by even ONE point at any time in the 4th quarter"

The last five late-fourth quarter games behind by a few points:

1. Jacksonville : Out with a concussion
2. Tampa : Played well
3. Cincinnati : Didn't play well
4. Carolina : Played Well (see Jones, Zay)
5. Miami ('16) Played well.

Personally, I don't want to get into another discussion of ZJ's mutant route or complete lack of ball awareness, but will do so if pushed. Reliving the late Tampa comeback would be fun, and who can forget Taylor's td pass on fourth down to take the lead with 80 seconds left against Miami? That was the first lead of the day against the Dolphins, after Buffalo was down by two touchdowns three separate times during the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how you say he played we at Carolina.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Royale with Cheese

[Big Gun]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

I'm not sure how you say he played we at Carolina.

Yeah, Tyrod stinks and the ones defending him are good comedy.

 

Browns fans are quickly going to learn he isn't very good.

 

Hey, their problem now, couldn't be happier he is gone.