Greg Cosell: Josh Rosen >Jared Goff, and best QB in the draft

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Okay I will bite...

 

Faith has no part of government; in the US it is supposed to be separate at least...

 

What exactly is a Jewish atheist? 

 

What I was trying to say was that as in government religious affiliation should be irrelevant as far as football is concerned (at least that's my opinion, as well as my understanding of the Constitution). So I think we are on the same page there. Sorry if that was not clear.

I gather that Rosen is (at least at this stage in his life) agnostic and not an atheist. Be that as it may, a Jewish atheist would be a Jew who does not believe in God but who nevertheless otherwise identifies with and is in part a product of Jewish culture. Obviously I don't know the guy but my understanding is that Rosen was raised as a Jew and continues to identify with the community he grew up in, even though he is not religious. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/greg-cosells-draft-analysis-josh-rosen-refined-perhaps-best-qb-class-151629623.html

 

Rosen is definitely better than Goff was.

 

 

[Nineforty]

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/05/21/one-of-the-top-college-football-prospects-in-the-country-is-an-atheist-and-he-attends-a-catholic-high-school/

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/_/id/23041561/josh-rosen-answers-nfl-critics-ucla-quarterback-tom-brady-ncaa-2018-draft

 

Mine is from ... Not 2014

[FeelingOnYouboty]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Not sure I agree with this lack of mobility stuff I see all the time. He's pretty much a a traditional pocket passer of course but within that class of QB he is mobile enuf to execute outside the pocket occasionally and/or when required. In the land of world class athletes he maybe doesn't stand out, but the guy is a good athlete. If he couldn't move/react with decent short area quickness and composure he would not have been a promising tennis player. 

 

When I mention mobility I don't mean a Lamar Jackson. I love the way Brady, Marino and Romo moves in the pocket. Dink of the shoulder here, step up here, move to the side here. All the great ones do it. Rosen does it but not as much as I'd like though this is a teachable thing.

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

And his mother is Christian 

I know this...

 

 

[starrymessenger]

8 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

And his mother is Christian 

 

Well that's interesting because I thought Jewishness was only transmitted on the distaff side. So maybe he's really an agnostic gentile? I'm not an expert tho, but if that makes McCoach warm up to him a little more I'm all for it.

Edited April 17, 2018 by starrymessenger

[Sky Diver]

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Seems like the only real flaw people can find with Rosen are the things he's said, and the concussions. 

 

 

But even the people who knock Rosen for the things he's said will start by saying "he's the best passer in this draft" or something along those lines. 

 

He's a young kid. When I think another some of the stuff I used to say and do bad when I was his age... yeah. 

 

He's a smart kid. He will grow and mature. It would be so dumb (IMO) to pass on such a talented QB over some things he's said to the media. 

 

The issues with Rosen are:

 

1. Personality

2. Durability

3. Lack of mobility

4. Trying to extend plays when he should just get rid of the ball

 

Can't fix 2 and 3. Probably can't modify 1. 4 may be correctable.

[starrymessenger]

4 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

 

When I mention mobility I don't mean a Lamar Jackson. I love the way Brady, Marino and Romo moves in the pocket. Dink of the shoulder here, step up here, move to the side here. All the great ones do it. Rosen does it but not as much as I'd like though this is a teachable thing.

 

Actually I think Rosen works the pocket pretty well, though maybe that's debatable. I wasn't talking about that. My point was that he is capable of operating outside the pocket (tho not like Lamar of course). He's not a big dumb statue like Flacco.

[SouthNYfan]

12 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

You forgot Chris Carter. You're falling down on the job.

 

He's a bum.

[YoloinOhio]

8 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Well that's interesting because I thought Jewishness was only transmitted on the distaff side. So maybe he's really an agnostic gentile? I'm not an expert tho, but if that makes McCoach warm up to him a little more I'm all for it.

Nah I just mentioned it because it’s possible he wasn’t raised Jewish, not that it matters. 

[K-9]

29 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

 Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I am not Jewish but being a Jew can mean ethnicity , nationality, and religion... So you could be a Jewish atheist (he is agnostic not atheist) ... In 2 different ways actually...

Not sure I understand how Jew can mean nationality. Is this a reference to Israel being a Jewish "state?" Because it isn't. Not only because of the diversity of it's citizens but also because their own laws prevent that as they have never specifically defined Israel as such. That's not to say that there aren't some hard right nationalists pushing for such a law to be ratified, including Netanyahu. 

 

I am intrigued by the concept of a type of "Jewish atheist/agnostic" vs. any other kind of atheist/agnostic. Is it simply a non-belief in the Jewish God? If so, does their disbelief not cover all other Gods for all other religions? That's an interesting concept, imo. 

[Sky Diver]

20 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Nah I just mentioned it because it’s possible he wasn’t raised Jewish, not that it matters. 

 

I read somewhere that his mother is a Quaker and he went to a Catholic HS.

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

I read somewhere that his mother is a Quaker and he went to a Catholic HS.

Quaker Christian. He did go to St John Bosco. I don’t think the faith-based education was a factor in him going there, if he is like many kids who play football at catholic HS and aren’t of that religion. They are recruited.

Edited April 17, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[Nineforty]

6 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not sure I understand how Jew can mean nationality. Is this a reference to Israel being a Jewish "state?" Because it isn't. Not only because of the diversity of it's citizens but also because their own laws prevent that as they have never specifically defined Israel as such. That's not to say that there aren't some hard right nationalists pushing for such a law to be ratified, including Netanyahu. 

 

I am intrigued by the concept of a type of "Jewish atheist/agnostic" vs. any other kind of atheist/agnostic. Is it simply a non-belief in the Jewish God? If so, does their disbelief not cover all other Gods for all other religions? That's an interesting concept, imo. 

I get what you are saying and that seems right about nationality which on its surface would seem to eliminate what I said. 

 

What about genetics? Could your heritage be jewish, but not from a religious standpoint but genetics?

[Sky Diver]

8 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Quaker Christian. He did go to St John Bosco. I don’t think the faith-based education was a factor in him going there, if he is like many kids who play football at catholic HS and aren’t of that religion. They are recruited.

 

I recall reading that he went to confession and attended mass. Several years ago he said that he’s “kind of an atheist”.  I am hard on him, but he’s probably not a bad kid. It seems like he’s trying to figure things out in a mixed up world.

[K-9]

15 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

I get what you are saying and that seems right about nationality which on its surface would seem to eliminate what I said. 

 

What about genetics? Could your heritage be jewish, but not from a religious standpoint but genetics?

Another fascinating subject and yes, there are certain markers that identify certain traits that can be traced to certain regions and familial histories. I forget the name of the study, but an extensive DNA study of people from all around the world was conducted in the 90s or early aughts and it proved how much more similar we are as humans than different. IIRC, the largest disparity was between two south pacific societies only a couple hundred miles away from each other. That blew me away. I have to see if I can find that study again. It was a media sensation at the time as I recall. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by K-9

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Rosen is this top talent according to some here and in these same minds other teams will choose to bypass this said talent? 

 

I'll take this one on. 

 

I think Beane alluded to it either during the senior bowl or the combine.  He said something to the effect that, the whole evaluation process is very team specific, and the top QB for us won't necessarily be the top QB for every team.  Different teams will weight different factors differently.

 

I think that's spot-on especially where Rosen is concerned.  I think he is a challenging, questioning kind of guy and as Trent Dilfer says, you need to bring your coaching A game for him, if you try to serve him "Weak Sauce" you will lose him.  He said this favorably, alluding to Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers as being similar in their coaching needs.  But there are coaches in the NFL who would NOT take well to this, who would see this as a serious flaw: "do it that way because I say so!"  I see Todd Haley and Hue Jackson, for example, as being in that mold of wanting to be the autocrat and not be questioned (maybe I'm wrong, it's just what I think I see). 

 

I don't know if Rosen is our top choice, but it makes perfect sense to me that he might be for some teams, but with the same information but different assessment of it, not for others.

3 hours ago, horned dogs said:

We've all had concussions

 

Indeed, I'm dealing with the remnants of one (auto accident) right now and it lacks amusement.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'll take this one on. 

 

I think Beane alluded to it either during the senior bowl or the combine.  He said something to the effect that, the whole evaluation process is very team specific, and the top QB for us won't necessarily be the top QB for every team.  Different teams will weight different factors differently.

 

I think that's spot-on especially where Rosen is concerned.  I think he is a challenging, questioning kind of guy and as Trent Dilfer says, you need to bring your coaching A game for him, if you try to serve him "Weak Sauce" you will lose him.  He said this favorably, alluding to Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers as being similar in their coaching needs.  But there are coaches in the NFL who would NOT take well to this, who would see this as a serious flaw: "do it that way because I say so!"  I see Todd Haley and Hue Jackson, for example, as being in that mold of wanting to be the autocrat and not be questioned (maybe I'm wrong, it's just what I think I see). 

 

I don't know if Rosen is our top choice, but it makes perfect sense to me that he might be for some teams, but with the same information but different assessment of it, not for others.

 

Indeed, I'm dealing with the remnants of one (auto accident) right now and it lacks amusement.

Feel better dude! Not much fun for sure.

Edited April 17, 2018 by horned dogs

[billsredneck1]

4 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Rosen is this top talent according to some here and in these same minds other teams will choose to bypass this said talent?  Quite the mental gymnastics at work on this board.  The Jets will not choose Rosen because of political differences with Woody Johnson?  Doubtful.  The world is full of people that have to work for or work with people of different political stripes.  That includes bosses and subordinates.  If Rosen has issues with Johnson then he will most likely have issues with WNY'ers outside of the the Buffalo and Rochester city limits.

the shoulder thing could be a concern although it wouldn't stop me from taking him. the only thing would be,

can he want to be here and give his all for this team and city?  if that's not possible, it's gonna be a long disgruntled rookie contract.....locker room. if he's rubbing things the wrong way, this team will suffer.

Edited April 17, 2018 by billsredneck1

[BillsFan4]

Just now, Sky Diver said:

 

The issues with Rosen are:

 

1. Personality

2. Durability

3. Lack of mobility

4. Trying to extend plays when he should just get rid of the ball

 

Can't fix 2 and 3. Probably can't modify 1. 4 may be correctable.

 

Thats fair. 2 and 3 are legitimate concerns. 

 

- Personally, I think his personality will change as he gets older. He reminds me a lot of a typical head strong 21yr old college kid right now. He's a smart kid. He will mature. Look at how much Jack Eichel has matured this season compared to the last 2. 

Its not like he has any reall off field issues. He just has a strong personality, which many QBs do. Tom Brady is legendary for it (and for being a giant A hole during practice and on the field). Aaron Rodgers has a very strong personality too. 

I don't see any reason to pass on one of the top QBs to hit the draft in years just because he has a few opinions I may or may not agree with... 

 

- Durability is my main concern with him too. But I think a lot of that can be mitigated with proper diet and training that he will receive in the NFL. He has the frame to be able to bulk up. 

I also think you can limit the risk by building a good o line in front of him. 

 

I think it's worth mentioning that Mayfield has had at least 3 concussions that I am aware of, and his style of play will make it harder to just build s good o line in front of him and limit that risk. He said, even after 2 concussions in 3 weeks, that he won't change his play style... 

 

- I'm not as worried about his lack of mobility (but I want/prefer a traditional pocket passer). He's good at stepping up and playing in the pocket and he's only going to get better at it as time goes on. He is a very efficient, accurate pocket QB. I see him being a guy who picks you apart from the pocket, like a Brady or Manning (I'm not at all saying he will be the next Brady or manning, just that he is similar to that style of traditional pocket QB). So I don't really need him to be mobile. Just keep learning & improving on how to play in the pocket. 

 

- I also think his decision making will get better in time, as far as knowing when to get rid of the ball. This is an issue with Darnold and Allen too. It's an issue with a lot of college QBs. 

 

 

The thing is, every QB in this draft has his worst. You are never going to get a perfect QB prospect. I just want to take a shot on one this year. The Bills have constantly passed on QBs over the years for one reason or another. 

 

 

I am not dead set on any QB in this draft. I'd prefer Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield. But I'd also be excited about Allen and even Rudolph. I'd definitely prefer one of the top 3, and if Rosen falls right into our lap there is no way that I am passing on him because of some perceived personality issues (which have been debunked time and again by many of his teammates). Give me any one of the top 3 (or 4) and I'm happy though!