How to build the Bills into a Champion

[White Linen]

12 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Here is one nobody will like. But it has to be something nobody in Buffalo will like, otherwise teams won't hand over a top pick! Nobody is going to be enticed by including Cordy Glenn and his giant cap number. (Unless we eat a bunch of it that I am not aware of)

 

I think Tre White, and a first and a second this year (2018) might get us where we need to be.

 

Tre White and two firsts this year I think would do it for sure.

 

And for sure I agree with Polish Dave we have to get the O-line. Without the O-line being highly upgraded there is no reason to even bother getting a QB prospect. 

 

 

 

 

There is no way you're moving from 21 to the top 5 with that offer.

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that might move us up from 8 or 10 to 4, not 21/22 to 2

 

I do have a question: how would a draft day trade including a player go down?  Can anyone give recent examples of this happening?

 

Normally when a player is traded, the player reports to the trade partner's facility for a physical by their team physicians, and if he fails it the trade is either re-negotiated or off.  Well, if you trade a pick for a player, and the trade partner uses it to draft a player that would not be your choice, what remedy would you have?

 

I would guess, especially with a player that saw limited playing time for what may be a chronic injury as Glenn did, there would not be a good draft-day trade market.

If teams feel he is worth a pick, I would think they would trade for him in March or April before the draft so they have time for their staff to vet him before it goes down.

 

 

 

I think there would be other compensation tied in case the physical is failed. 

45 minutes ago, MarkyMannn said:

I see so many posters putting Glenn in a trade package.  If I'm the other team that is almost a deal BREAKER.  An average LT, overpaid, and often hurt.  Why would I want that in a deal?  I've never seen any kind of rankings of OT's that had him in the top 10

 

Giants would like him. His contract is NOT bad once traded. And yes he is a top 10 LT when he plays 

47 minutes ago, MarkyMannn said:

I see so many posters putting Glenn in a trade package.  If I'm the other team that is almost a deal BREAKER.  An average LT, overpaid, and often hurt.  Why would I want that in a deal?  I've never seen any kind of rankings of OT's that had him in the top 10

 

If they wont take Glenn fine. 

 

2018 - 21,22 second and 3rd 

2019 - First and 2nd 

 

that will get you to too. 

[Virgil]

19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

2018 - 21,22 second and 3rd 

2019 - First and 2nd 

 

that will get you to too. 

 

Would you seriously give that up to get the #2 pick?

 

I don’t care who is there, no rookie QB is worth that risk. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Tatonka68 said:

1. Sign free agents CB Vonte Davis, DT Dontari Poe and WR Paul Richardson. Resign DT Kyle Williams and CB Leonard Johnson.

2. Trade both 1st round picks, the 3rd round pick from this year and a 2nd from 2019 to NY GIants for there 1st round pick.

3. Draft QB Josh Rosen in the 1st round, in the 2ns round draft ILB Josey Jewell and OLB Tegray Scales, 4th round pick RB Bo Scarbrough.

 

DONE

 

I recall the last time you started a "DONE" thread.....

 

 

[White Linen]

18 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

Would you seriously give that up to get the #2 pick?

 

I don’t care who is there, no rookie QB is worth that risk. 

 

That's about what it would take - maybe even a little more.

40 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

 

If they wont take Glenn fine. 

 

2018 - 21,22 second and 3rd 

2019 - First and 2nd 

 

that will get you to too. 

 

This is where I'm at in terms of what it would take to get to #2.  I don't think people are realizing how the 21st and 22nd pick aren't as valuable as they think.  

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, Tatonka68 said:

1. Sign free agents CB Vonte Davis, DT Dontari Poe and WR Paul Richardson. Resign DT Kyle Williams and CB Leonard Johnson.

2. Trade both 1st round picks, the 3rd round pick from this year and a 2nd from 2019 to NY GIants for there 1st round pick.

3. Draft QB Josh Rosen in the 1st round, in the 2ns round draft ILB Josey Jewell and OLB Tegray Scales, 4th round pick RB Bo Scarbrough.

 

DONE

 

Trivia time:  Does anyone know why the Rams and Eagles had a massive turn around almost over night?

 

Hint:  Answers are NOT Goff or Wentz.

 

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Answer:  Offensive Line.  Rams offensive line went from worst in the league to 3rd best this past year after making major adjustments.  Gurley went from below average to NFL MVP candidate.  Nick Foles came in and showed just how good the Eagles OL is and why it makes Wentz job so much easier.   Foles behind a bad OL was atrocious for 3 of his 4 years as as starting QB.  Foles comes in behind the NFLs best OL and wins the Super Bowl. 

 

Buffalo Bills pass protection is utterly atrocious.  If not for TT's escapability and athleticism, it would have finished near or at bottom of the NFL.  Peterman was swallowed whole behind this line, and any team willing to pressure TT rather than spy and defend against the run got right through the OL at will.  

 

Assuming the next Bills QB isnt as athletic as TT, this OL will get them killed.  And it only got worse with losing Wood.  The only rookie who can maybe function behind this sad pass protection group is Lamar, and even though Lamar is one of several rookies I do like, I dont expect the Bills to take him.  Anyone else, Cousins included if we landed him, is going to get crushed unless we significantly address the OL.  

 

So any thread about building the Bills into a Champion that doesn't also include seriously addressing one of the worst and weakest parts of this team in pass protection is not accurate IMO.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Here is one nobody will like. But it has to be something nobody in Buffalo will like, otherwise teams won't hand over a top pick! Nobody is going to be enticed by including Cordy Glenn and his giant cap number. (Unless we eat a bunch of it that I am not aware of)

 

I think Tre White, and a first and a second this year (2018) might get us where we need to be.

 

Tre White and two firsts this year I think would do it for sure.

 

And for sure I agree with Polish Dave we have to get the O-line. Without the O-line being highly upgraded there is no reason to even bother getting a QB prospect. 

 

 

 

Yeah I posted something similar a couple weeks ago.............if a team is considering drafting Fitzpatrick in the top 5 then getting Tre White plus picks would be a big upgrade over just getting Fitzpatrick, IMO.

 

White's level of play is probably Fitzpatricks CEILING at CB.........which is the more important/difficult position to fill compared to safety.

 

The acquiring team loses a year of control with White but saves all the signing bonus money that was already paid.

 

Most Bills 1st round picks depreciate faster than a new car off the lot but White would be a valuable chip to the right team if the Bills are desperate to move up for a QB.

Edited February 16, 2018 by BADOLBILZ

[CuddyDark]

Do none of that the OP says.

[DocLawless]

36 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Trivia time:  Does anyone know why the Rams and Eagles had a massive turn around almost over night?

 

Hint:  Answers are NOT Goff or Wentz.

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

Answer:  Offensive Line.  Rams offensive line went from worst in the league to 3rd best this past year after making major adjustments.  Gurley went from below average to NFL MVP candidate.  Nick Foles came in and showed just how good the Eagles OL is and why it makes Wentz job so much easier.   Foles behind a bad OL was atrocious for 3 of his 4 years as as starting QB.  Foles comes in behind the NFLs best OL and wins the Super Bowl. 

 

Buffalo Bills pass protection is utterly atrocious.  If not for TT's escapability and athleticism, it would have finished near or at bottom of the NFL.  Peterman was swallowed whole behind this line, and any team willing to pressure TT rather than spy and defend against the run got right through the OL at will.  

 

Assuming the next Bills QB isnt as athletic as TT, this OL will get them killed.  And it only got worse with losing Wood.  The only rookie who can maybe function behind this sad pass protection group is Lamar, and even though Lamar is one of several rookies I do like, I dont expect the Bills to take him.  Anyone else, Cousins included if we landed him, is going to get crushed unless we significantly address the OL.  

 

So any thread about building the Bills into a Champion that doesn't also include seriously addressing one of the worst and weakest parts of this team in pass protection is not accurate IMO.

 

 

This is spot on IMO. Another team to look at in regards to this is the 2016 Dallas Cowboys. One of the Top O-Lines that season and look at the numbers a rookie QB and rookie RB were able to produce. Not to mention being one of the top teams in the NFC. 

[FappyTheClown]

1. Just win, baby!

[BuffaloRush]

Trade for Tom Brady and then try to make an offer to get Bill Belichick as Defensive Coordinator. 

[JohnC]

50 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Trivia time:  Does anyone know why the Rams and Eagles had a massive turn around almost over night?

 

Hint:  Answers are NOT Goff or Wentz.

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

Answer:  Offensive Line.  Rams offensive line went from worst in the league to 3rd best this past year after making major adjustments.  Gurley went from below average to NFL MVP candidate.  Nick Foles came in and showed just how good the Eagles OL is and why it makes Wentz job so much easier.   Foles behind a bad OL was atrocious for 3 of his 4 years as as starting QB.  Foles comes in behind the NFLs best OL and wins the Super Bowl. 

 

Buffalo Bills pass protection is utterly atrocious.  If not for TT's escapability and athleticism, it would have finished near or at bottom of the NFL.  Peterman was swallowed whole behind this line, and any team willing to pressure TT rather than spy and defend against the run got right through the OL at will.  

 

Assuming the next Bills QB isnt as athletic as TT, this OL will get them killed.  And it only got worse with losing Wood.  The only rookie who can maybe function behind this sad pass protection group is Lamar, and even though Lamar is one of several rookies I do like, I dont expect the Bills to take him.  Anyone else, Cousins included if we landed him, is going to get crushed unless we significantly address the OL.  

 

So any thread about building the Bills into a Champion that doesn't also include seriously addressing one of the worst and weakest parts of this team in pass protection is not accurate IMO.

 

 

It is rare for any team that has major holes to turn it around over night. The most essential act that the Rams made to become a contending team was to make the expensive deal for Goff. Of course he didn't turn it around in his rookie year. What did you expect? Instant success? The next year the team bolstered the OL and also bolstered the receiver corps. But without the franchise qb that they drafted the previous year the added talent the next year would not have been as impactful. 

 

The same scenario played out for the Eagles. The centerpiece to their success was paying a premium price to get their prized franchise qb. Getting a qb doesn't mean that you should stop with bolstering the roster. The team continued to add talent and upgrade the coaching staff. But what is going to keep this team at a very competitive level for the near future is having the quality qb in place. 

 

The lesson to be learned by the two examples cited is getting a qb is the most essential requirement to becoming a SB contending team. It doesn't end right there because you still have to upgrade the roster in general. That is a continuing process. Without a doubt getting a franchise qb is the most important act to be taken if you want to be successful. 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

 

Would you seriously give that up to get the #2 pick?

 

I don’t care who is there, no rookie QB is worth that risk. 

 

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

That's about what it would take - maybe even a little more.

 

This is where I'm at in terms of what it would take to get to #2.  I don't think people are realizing how the 21st and 22nd pick aren't as valuable as they think.  

 

Yep.  I guess some people could make an agreement about a consensus generational QB like Peyton Manning or Luck could be made. 

I'm sticking with my opinion that Beane and McDermott are not going to push all their chips in on a move like this.

[sleeby]

You guys who would give everything for two years away for the hope that the QB you get out of the top three will be the magic pill that makes the Bills into Atlas are nuts.  Screw magical beans - build something.  Take a QB at 21 and then another next year and another in 2020 - all the while building the obvious things that he needs such as o line, WRs, backup RB and defense.  

Richie incognito is not an O line (ask n8) - and he's not going to play forever.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by sleeby

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It is rare for any team that has major holes to turn it around over night. The most essential act that the Rams made to become a contending team was to make the expensive deal for Goff. Of course he didn't turn it around in his rookie year. What did you expect? Instant success? The next year the team bolstered the OL and also bolstered the receiver corps. But without the franchise qb that they drafted the previous year the added talent the next year would not have been as impactful. 

 

The same scenario played out for the Eagles. The centerpiece to their success was paying a premium price to get their prized franchise qb. Getting a qb doesn't mean that you should stop with bolstering the roster. The team continued to add talent and upgrade the coaching staff. But what is going to keep this team at a very competitive level for the near future is having the quality qb in place. 

 

The lesson to be learned by the two examples cited is getting a qb is the most essential requirement to becoming a SB contending team. It doesn't end right there because you still have to upgrade the roster in general. That is a continuing process. Without a doubt getting a franchise qb is the most important act to be taken if you want to be successful. 

 

 

 

Except you are wrong on the biggest impact on those teams.  It was the OL.  Not taking anything away from Goff or Wentz, two very promising young QB's.  But the colossal turn around for the Rams was the OL rebuild that took them from bottom of the NFL to 3rd this year.  Philly showed that the OL is so good that Foles, a journeyman cast off who failed 3 consecutive years as a starter for Eagles and Rams, could step in and still win the SB where the Offensive didn't punt the whole game because NE couldn't get any pressure.  And against Minny, one of the best defenses in the league, the OL dominated the LOS and kept Foles with time all day to dismantle that team behind the best OL in football.

 

I am not saying we dont need to upgrade at QB, but any thread about building a champion that does NOT include building this pathetic pass blocking OL we have is way off track.  The pass protection was already one of the worst parts of this team, then we lost Wood and got worse.  Plus there are no guarantees both Glenn and Incognito will be here next year as rumors are out there about interest in trading Glenn and maybe wanting to restructure Richie.  I hope (and think) we keep both, just referencing the rumors where its possible one or both could not be here next year.  

 

Either way, the OL is awful and its imperative that we ALSO address the pass protection this offseason to help keep whatever new QB we have upright this year or it will be a long year for them.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, sleeby said:

You guys who would give everything for two years away for the hope that the QB you get out of the top three will be the magic pill that makes the Bills into Atlas are nuts.  Screw magical beans - build something.  Take a QB at 21 and then another next year and another in 2020 - all the while building the obvious things that he needs such as o line, WRs, backup RB and defense.  

Richie incognito is not an O line - and he's not going to play forever.

 

 

We got the 2nd 1st round pick because we traded down for a team wanting their QB.

I have no problem (more so, I think Beane and McDermott also) would use the 2-1st's to move up to get "their guy".

Anything more starts to get problematic.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You realize this is substantially less than other recent trade-ups, for more spots?

Wentz Trade for #2 pick - Eagles gave:

2016 #8 overall pick
2016 Third and Fourth
2017 First
2018 Second

 

Mahomes Trade for #10 - KC gave:

2017 #27 pick

2017 Third

2018 1st

 

Chicago gave a 3rd, a 4th, and a 2018 3rd just to swap 1 spot.

 

I'm not sure  what it would take to move up from #21 to #2, but I'm pretty sure what you describe won't do it. 

 

 

Two #1s in consecutive years are NOT the same value as two #1s in the same year. People keep missing that fact. 

[JohnC]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Except you are wrong on the biggest impact on those teams.  It was the OL.  Not taking anything away from Goff or Wentz, two very promising young QB's.  But the colossal turn around for the Rams was the OL rebuild that took them from bottom of the NFL to 3rd this year.  Philly showed that the OL is so good that Foles, a journeyman cast off who failed 3 consecutive years as a starter for Eagles and Rams, could step in and still win the SB where the Offensive didn't punt the whole game because NE couldn't get any pressure.  And against Minny, one of the best defenses in the league, the OL dominated the LOS and kept Foles with time all day to dismantle that team behind the best OL in football.

 

I am not saying we dont need to upgrade at QB, but any thread about building a champion that does NOT include building this pathetic pass blocking OL we have is way off track.  The pass protection was already one of the worst parts of this team, then we lost Wood and got worse.  Plus there are no guarantees both Glenn and Incognito will be here next year as rumors are out there about interest in trading Glenn and maybe wanting to restructure Richie.  I hope (and think) we keep both, just referencing the rumors where its possible one or both could not be here next year.  

 

Either way, the OL is awful and its imperative that we ALSO address the pass protection this offseason to help keep whatever new QB upright this year or it will be a long year for them.

I respectfully but strenuously disagree. The two most important players on the mentioned teams are the qbs. As I stated before just because you get the qb that doesn't mean that you stop adding to the roster. In the case with the Eagles Foles was exceptional in the playoffs. But during the season the reason the Eagles were one of the top teams all season long was because of the play of Wentz, who is now already recognized as one of the best qbs in the league. Do you really believe that Foles would have lifted the team to the same extent that Wentz did if he was the sole starter? Do you really believe that if Foles were the starter for the season the Eagles would have had the same success? I don't. 

 

I'm not arguing that having a top tier OL isn't important. Of course it is. I'm not arguing that upgrading the receiver isn't important? Of course it is. But what I am arguing is that the biggest contribution to the success of the respective franchises was directly related to getting a high quality qb.  

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Except you are wrong on the biggest impact on those teams.  It was the OL.  Not taking anything away from Goff or Wentz, two very promising young QB's.  But the colossal turn around for the Rams was the OL rebuild that took them from bottom of the NFL to 3rd this year.  Philly showed that the OL is so good that Foles, a journeyman cast off who failed 3 consecutive years as a starter for Eagles and Rams, could step in and still win the SB where the Offensive didn't punt the whole game because NE couldn't get any pressure.  And against Minny, one of the best defenses in the league, the OL dominated the LOS and kept Foles with time all day to dismantle that team behind the best OL in football.

 

I am not saying we dont need to upgrade at QB, but any thread about building a champion that does NOT include building this pathetic pass blocking OL we have is way off track.  The pass protection was already one of the worst parts of this team, then we lost Wood and got worse.  Plus there are no guarantees both Glenn and Incognito will be here next year as rumors are out there about interest in trading Glenn and maybe wanting to restructure Richie.  I hope (and think) we keep both, just referencing the rumors where its possible one or both could not be here next year.  

 

Either way, the OL is awful and its imperative that we ALSO address the pass protection this offseason to help keep whatever new QB we have upright this year or it will be a long year for them.

 

But Philly had good lines when Foles was the QB (the first time), when Bradford was QB and when Wentz struggled at times as a rookie. Jason Peters and Lane Johnson has been the best offensive tackle pairing in the NFL for 5 years. 

 

The thing that made Philly contenders was that Wentz played like a true franchise Quarterback in 2017 and then they caught a bit of lightening in a bottle when a guy who is a borderline starter / top end backup had 2 and a half great games in the playoffs after sucking in his couple of regular season starts. 

 

On the Rams you are absolutely right the line as well as McVay and Goff was a major contributory factor in the improvement. But Philly's line has always been decent in recent years. The difference was QB play. 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

The below is pretty realistic IMO. I would then trust the front office to fill out the rest of the roster with players that fit the system. They seem to do a good job identifying those undervalued players by other teams that perform well in our scheme specifically on defense. With this plan I want to address the DL, LB, WR, CB, and QB.  

 

 

Free Agency

WR: Jaron Brown, Cardinals: Vertical threat won’t break the bank.

DT: Star Lotulelei, Panthers: We need DL help, Star has a history with our front office. I think this gets done.

WR: Jordan Matthews, Bills: He has had some very productive seasons and was a horrible fit for Tyrod with most his game coming in the intermediate route tree, especially over the middle.  

DT: Kyle Williams, Bills: Kyle plays one more season

CB: E.J. Gaines, Bills: He fits the scheme; we played much better when he was on the field

 

Draft  

Round 1: Bills Select Josh Rosen QB UCLA

Recap: Bills trade picks 21, 22, 53, and Cordy Glenn, to the New York Giants, acquire pick 2

Round 2: Rashaan Evans MLB/OLB Alabama

Round 3: Malik Jefferson MLB/OLB Texas

Edited February 16, 2018 by KzooMike