JohnC Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: I will honestly feel like the next 2 years of Bills football are a huge waste if we trade up for Allen. If we somehow stayed at 12 and took him I would still hate it but it would be a salvageable mistake. I am really hoping we take literally anyone else. That being said if we draft him I won't B word about it all summer, I'll just silently stew in my misery I have the same feeling as you do. I could tolerate drafting him at the 12 spot. But shedding valuable picks for a move up would be a major gamble. I don't see Allen as McBeane's priority selection. On the other hand he does fit the profile that McBeane had at qb from a size and arm standpoint. I'm not suggesting that they are equivalent talents but there is a similarity that exists that they have been attracted to. Where I slightly diverge from your viewpoint is that I am not as fearful of the selection because there is the raw talent. I just think that if you take the plunge with him you have to adjust the offense like the Steelers did with Roethlisberger in his rookie and early year where the emphasized the running game and a simplified passing offense. It can work if handled smartly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, kdiggz said: I just watched Darnold and Rosen film back to back today. It's not even close. Rosen is so far superior it's a joke that this is even a discussion. Darnold dances around and jump passes it to get it in the playmakers hands. It's effective but it's not something you see at the NFL level. His footwork is horrible, he's falling away from the throw, all of his momentum is going backwards instead of stepping into the throw. It works on those short quick passes in that offense because it's basically a long handoff, just trying to get it into the receiver's hands to let them run with it. You never see him stand tall in the pocket and deliver a strike. If anything he will do that while scrambling or again while falling away from the pressure. I don't know if he lacks the arm strength on some of these throws or if it's just because he's falling backwards and doesn't have the momentum behind his throw because of his poor mechanics. Josh Rosen is next level. On multiple throws he is set up to deliver the throw to a receiver but at the last second checks it down mid throw. You can see him going through the progression and he changes his release at the last second to throw it underneath. Because of his mechanics he can do that without resetting his feet. It's absolutely brilliant to see. Perfect base, good footwork in the pocket, momentum going forward, nice follow through. Just so impressive. Ask any QB to watch the film and it's not even a contest between these guys. So what I think is happening is there's too many cooks in the kitchen. A scout watches the film and sees Darnold as a solid "football player" who is big and strong and effective. He can escape pressure and get the ball to the playmaker. But it's soooo ugly to watch. It's not what you are taught to do at all. We used to have a RB in high school that would do a sweep play with the option to throw and he would basically flip the ball to the wr. He wouldn't even try and grip the ball and throw a spiral he would just kind of flop the ball out there. That's what Darnold reminds me of. No mechanics. Any scout that has Darnold rated high is because they are not a QB, don't understand the position, and do not know what proper mechanics look like. Ask any QB to watch the tape and it would be unanimous. Rosen is the best QB in this draft. Darnold's improvising and anticipation is what attracts me to him. He can make plays when the pocket isn't perfect, when pressure is in his face. He will also make mistakes. Rosen is polished. Not sure how he'll react under pressure though. Darnold has that it factor I believe. He'll make the wow throws we see Rodgers make. The big question is can he limit the turnovers. I think he compares well to Stafford and Winston. Edited April 13, 2018 by TheTruthHurts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said: Darnold's improvising and anticipation is what attracts me to him. He can make plays when the pocket isn't perfect, when pressure is in his face. He will also make mistakes. Rosen is polished. Not sure how he'll react under pressure though. Darnold has that it factor I believe. He'll make the wow throws we see Rodgers make. The big question is can he limit the turnovers. That is certainly the scouts point of view. From a QB's point of view he looks sloppy. Everything he does is pretty much what they tell you not to do. Much like the RB throwing in my story, it works and it gets the job done for the most part but it's not pretty. It could cause big issues at the next level. His throwing motion is not repeatable. It's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. You want your QB to be so robot like that it's almost boring. Think of Brady passing the ball down the field. Nothing exciting about it. 10 yards here, 15 there, right down the field to win the game. That is the type of passer Rosen is. Darnold, it's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. It's exciting to watch but it doesn't have to be. It should be so mechanical that it's boring. If both were on my team Rosen would be my starter. Edited April 13, 2018 by kdiggz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, kdiggz said: That is certainly the scouts point of view. From a QB's point of view he looks horrible. Everything he does is pretty much what they tell you not to do. Much like the RB throwing in my story, it works and it gets the job done for the most part but it's not pretty. It could cause big issues at the next level. His throwing motion is not repeatable. It's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. You want your QB to be so robot like that it's almost boring. Think of Brady passing the ball down the field. Nothing exciting about it. 10 yards here, 15 there, right down the field to win the game. That is the type of passer Rosen is. Darnold, it's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. It's exciting to watch but it doesn't have to be. It should be so mechanical that it's boring. If both were on my team Rosen would be my starter. Everything I have seen recognizes Darnold needs A LOT of work on mechanics, but he's the youngest guy in the class and has the physical tools, I think scouts see an "it" factor. He doesn't have the baggage of Rosen (real or perceived) but I agree with you, I think Rosen is easily the better QB right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, kdiggz said: Darnold dances around and jump passes it to get it in the playmakers hands. It's effective but it's not something you see at the NFL level. It reminds me of Rivers, he has one of the weirdest throwing motions I've ever seen but it works for him. Some guys you could actually mess up by trying to teach them too much. Darnold is accurate with his natural throwing motion so I personally wouldn't mess with that. I have him solidly as my #3 after Rosen and Mayfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domdab99 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) The worst scenario for the Bills is for Rosen, Mayfield, Darnold, and Jackson all going before they can pick or trade up. Allen at 12....yikes. actually, I take that back. The worst case scenario is for the Bills to trade up - to any spot - and select Allen. Edited April 13, 2018 by Domdab99 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Domdab99 said: The worst scenario for the Bills is for Rosen, Mayfield, Darnold, and Jackson all going before they can pick or trade up. Allen at 12....yikes. No, Allen at 2-5 and giving up all of their draft picks to get him = yikes Edited April 13, 2018 by kdiggz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domdab99 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 minute ago, kdiggz said: No, Allen at 2-5 and giving up all of their draft picks to get him = yikes Lil I edited my post to reflect that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said: Everything I have seen recognizes Darnold needs A LOT of work on mechanics, but he's the youngest guy in the class and has the physical tools, I think scouts see an "it" factor. He doesn't have the baggage of Rosen (real or perceived) but I agree with you, I think Rosen is easily the better QB right now. Hasn't Darnold publically said he's not going to try to change his throwing motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 4 hours ago, kdiggz said: I just watched Darnold and Rosen film back to back today. It's not even close. Rosen is so far superior it's a joke that this is even a discussion. Darnold dances around and jump passes it to get it in the playmakers hands. It's effective but it's not something you see at the NFL level. His footwork is horrible, he's falling away from the throw, all of his momentum is going backwards instead of stepping into the throw. It works on those short quick passes in that offense because it's basically a long handoff, just trying to get it into the receiver's hands to let them run with it. You never see him stand tall in the pocket and deliver a strike. If anything he will do that while scrambling or again while falling away from the pressure. I don't know if he lacks the arm strength on some of these throws or if it's just because he's falling backwards and doesn't have the momentum behind his throw because of his poor mechanics. Josh Rosen is next level. On multiple throws he is set up to deliver the throw to a receiver but at the last second checks it down mid throw. You can see him going through the progression and he changes his release at the last second to throw it underneath. Because of his mechanics he can do that without resetting his feet. It's absolutely brilliant to see. Perfect base, good footwork in the pocket, momentum going forward, nice follow through. Just so impressive. Ask any QB to watch the film and it's not even a contest between these guys. So what I think is happening is there's too many cooks in the kitchen. A scout watches the film and sees Darnold as a solid "football player" who is big and strong and effective. He can escape pressure and get the ball to the playmaker. But it's soooo ugly to watch. It's not what you are taught to do at all. We used to have a RB in high school that would do a sweep play with the option to throw and he would basically flip the ball to the wr. He wouldn't even try and grip the ball and throw a spiral he would just kind of flop the ball out there. That's what Darnold reminds me of. No mechanics. Any scout that has Darnold rated high is because they are not a QB, don't understand the position, and do not know what proper mechanics look like. Ask any QB to watch the tape and it would be unanimous. Rosen is the best QB in this draft. Many say Rosens the best pure passer, and a lot put mayfield 2. That said, to pretend Darnold is like your hs rb lobbing option passes doesn’t make your argument sound rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, kdiggz said: I just watched Darnold and Rosen film back to back today. It's not even close. Rosen is so far superior it's a joke that this is even a discussion. Darnold dances around and jump passes it to get it in the playmakers hands. It's effective but it's not something you see at the NFL level. His footwork is horrible, he's falling away from the throw, all of his momentum is going backwards instead of stepping into the throw. It works on those short quick passes in that offense because it's basically a long handoff, just trying to get it into the receiver's hands to let them run with it. You never see him stand tall in the pocket and deliver a strike. If anything he will do that while scrambling or again while falling away from the pressure. I don't know if he lacks the arm strength on some of these throws or if it's just because he's falling backwards and doesn't have the momentum behind his throw because of his poor mechanics. Josh Rosen is next level. On multiple throws he is set up to deliver the throw to a receiver but at the last second checks it down mid throw. You can see him going through the progression and he changes his release at the last second to throw it underneath. Because of his mechanics he can do that without resetting his feet. It's absolutely brilliant to see. Perfect base, good footwork in the pocket, momentum going forward, nice follow through. Just so impressive. Ask any QB to watch the film and it's not even a contest between these guys. So what I think is happening is there's too many cooks in the kitchen. A scout watches the film and sees Darnold as a solid "football player" who is big and strong and effective. He can escape pressure and get the ball to the playmaker. But it's soooo ugly to watch. It's not what you are taught to do at all. We used to have a RB in high school that would do a sweep play with the option to throw and he would basically flip the ball to the wr. He wouldn't even try and grip the ball and throw a spiral he would just kind of flop the ball out there. That's what Darnold reminds me of. No mechanics. Any scout that has Darnold rated high is because they are not a QB, don't understand the position, and do not know what proper mechanics look like. Ask any QB to watch the tape and it would be unanimous. Rosen is the best QB in this draft. I agree when you’re talking about throwing from the pocket in rhythm. Once pressured and out of the pocket, it’s the other way around. 4 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said: Darnold's improvising and anticipation is what attracts me to him. He can make plays when the pocket isn't perfect, when pressure is in his face. He will also make mistakes. Rosen is polished. Not sure how he'll react under pressure though. Darnold has that it factor I believe. He'll make the wow throws we see Rodgers make. The big question is can he limit the turnovers. I think he compares well to Stafford and Winston. Winston all day imo. Fine by me. Stafford’s arm is far superior to Darnold. 4 hours ago, Domdab99 said: The worst scenario for the Bills is for Rosen, Mayfield, Darnold, and Jackson all going before they can pick or trade up. Allen at 12....yikes. actually, I take that back. The worst case scenario is for the Bills to trade up - to any spot - and select Allen. Worst case is ending up with Mason Rudolph Edited April 14, 2018 by NewEra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafioso Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) Allen has grown on me. Seems much more the type of guy that would culture fit in Buffalo and with McBeane, compared to the others - blue collar farmer kid from a small market college team. If McBeane so picks him, I trust them to do what’s best for winning. Edited April 14, 2018 by BillsMafioso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. ChumChums Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Honestly, Darnold scares me. The internet tells me he has the weakest arm out of the top 6 QB, and I do want a QB with arm strength that's at least competitive. Josh Rosen all day for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 7 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: Well they are getting Mayfield or Rosen. Either way it's tough to stomach. It'll be much easier to stomach when we get the other one. It'll be even harder to stomach if we get neither of them. I almost wish they take Rosen, leaving us Baker, and him putting the Jets on his "list" for passing on him. Almost? I think Mayfield is the closest thing to a sure thing in this draft, personally. I think he's going to be a true Franchise QB. I'll be very very happy if we manage to get Mayfield while keeping even more of our draft picks 7 hours ago, HappyDays said: I will honestly feel like the next 2 years of Bills football are a huge waste if we trade up for Allen. If we somehow stayed at 12 and took him I would still hate it but it would be a salvageable mistake. I am really hoping we take literally anyone else. That being said if we draft him I won't B word about it all summer, I'll just silently stew in my misery Abso friggin LUTELY!!!! Although I will be very up front and honest about this: I will delude myself with time into thinking Allen could be our Franchise Savior even though right now I'm disgusted at the prospect of even drafting him. Kinda frightening that he's constantly popping up as our choice in the vast majority of mock drafts 6 hours ago, HappyDays said: It reminds me of Rivers, he has one of the weirdest throwing motions I've ever seen but it works for him. Some guys you could actually mess up by trying to teach them too much. Darnold is accurate with his natural throwing motion so I personally wouldn't mess with that. I have him solidly as my #3 after Rosen and Mayfield. Any of those 3 guys in a trade up or Jackson at 12 on draft day and I'm jumping for joy. Allen in a trade up and I'm seeing if I can run through a wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsSbSoon Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 7 hours ago, kdiggz said: That is certainly the scouts point of view. From a QB's point of view he looks sloppy. Everything he does is pretty much what they tell you not to do. Much like the RB throwing in my story, it works and it gets the job done for the most part but it's not pretty. It could cause big issues at the next level. His throwing motion is not repeatable. It's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. You want your QB to be so robot like that it's almost boring. Think of Brady passing the ball down the field. Nothing exciting about it. 10 yards here, 15 there, right down the field to win the game. That is the type of passer Rosen is. Darnold, it's anyone's guess what is going to happen from play to play. It's exciting to watch but it doesn't have to be. It should be so mechanical that it's boring. If both were on my team Rosen would be my starter. Yeah its not even close. Been saying it for months. Anyone with even a basic understanding of the position and has watched both of them should be able to see it. rosen should be the number 1 pick in this draft hands down. He can play right now. I think a lot of overthinking is going on here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, buffaloboyinATL said: I would prefer Rosen over Darnold based solely on talent. Not sure what to think about him as a person, but from a talent perspective, he’d be my #1 choice. Rosen has some durability issues and he never really light the world on fire at UCLA. I do like his style of play and he has the physical and Rosen is exceptionally smart (I don't see how being too smart could be a negative.) I rank the QB's as such. 1- Darnold 2- Mayfield 3- Rosen 4- Jackson 5- Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 2 hours ago, NoSaint said: Many say Rosens the best pure passer, and a lot put mayfield 2. That said, to pretend Darnold is like your hs rb lobbing option passes doesn’t make your argument sound rational. It's an extreme example but watch the tape. A lot of rolling out and throwing off balance, falling away from the line and throwing off back foot, jump passes. He gets the ball to the receiver and it works for the most part but rarely if ever does he stand in the pocket and deliver a strike to the 2nd level. Lots of sloppy looking dink and dunks underneath. Not a true pocket passer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Almost? I think Mayfield is the closest thing to a sure thing in this draft, personally. I think he's going to be a true Franchise QB. I'll be very very happy if we manage to get Mayfield while keeping even more of our draft picks Abso friggin LUTELY!!!! Although I will be very up front and honest about this: I will delude myself with time into thinking Allen could be our Franchise Savior even though right now I'm disgusted at the prospect of even drafting him. Kinda frightening that he's constantly popping up as our choice in the vast majority of mock drafts Any of those 3 guys in a trade up or Jackson at 12 on draft day and I'm jumping for joy. Allen in a trade up and I'm seeing if I can run through a wall We can agree to disagree there. Taking the concussions out of it I have them: Rosen ---- ---- Mayfield Darnold Including the concussions (which you have to) Rosen Mayfield ----- ---- Darnold Rosen is light-years ahead of either one with his pocket presence and decision making Mayfield reminds me of flutie, not because he's short, but just that fiery, win at all costs attitude. That's good and bad. I'll use the NBA as an example. Jordan is an all time great, hardcore never wanted to lose, and early on he was detrimental to his team due to his fiery desire to win at all costs. As he matured, he realized he couldn't do it all on his own, and started to pass more, allow other guys to be involved, and started winning titles like crazy. Russell Westbrook is one of the most gifted players ever, and has that fire to go along with it. He has driven James harden and Kevin Durant out of town, along with oladipo too now, as nobody likes playing with him, because he is a ball hog who doesn't trust his two all star teammates. I'm concerned Mayfield's fire could turn into that. Again, I have zero problem getting him, but if they are both available, I would go with Rosen, but it's damn close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 4/10/2018 at 1:52 PM, BillsFan4 said: Pretty much everything he said makes perfect sense, and would be a perfect scenario for the Bills. I still worry about Elway going QB at 5, especially if Rosen is sitting there. So getting to #4 would be nice. But it'd be cheaper to get to 6/7. Or in this scenario we may even be able to sit at 12 and draft Rosen, which would be an absolute dream come true. Id still rather trade up to 6/7 if Rosen is there and the price is reasonable, just to be sure. Thanks for sharing this Yolo! I agree there's no way Elway passes on a potential franchise QB at 5 On 4/10/2018 at 10:44 AM, Chuck Wagon said: If Barkley goes 2, I think the Browns shop pick 4 hard. If we know they are calling around, I don't think we let someone else make a deal. I would love to hold onto 22 and all our 2019 picks and walk out with Rosen, but I'm not entirely sure if that's realistic. 12 / 53 / 56 for 4 is value for the Browns, they won't get an insane premium, but still get their DB and add 2 more day 2 picks. does anyone question whether Barkley is really worth the #2 overall? That would put him in Ladanian Tomlinson/Eric Dickerson territory. Most of my draft research has been on QBs but I haven't heard anyone say he's a HOF type back. If he isn't then the price to go to #2 for the Bills should not be as high as advertised. I for one don't believe for a second that NYG is going QB with Eli and Davis Webb on the roster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, kdiggz said: I just watched Darnold and Rosen film back to back today. It's not even close. Rosen is so far superior it's a joke that this is even a discussion. Darnold dances around and jump passes it to get it in the playmakers hands. It's effective but it's not something you see at the NFL level. His footwork is horrible, he's falling away from the throw, all of his momentum is going backwards instead of stepping into the throw. It works on those short quick passes in that offense because it's basically a long handoff, just trying to get it into the receiver's hands to let them run with it. You never see him stand tall in the pocket and deliver a strike. If anything he will do that while scrambling or again while falling away from the pressure. I don't know if he lacks the arm strength on some of these throws or if it's just because he's falling backwards and doesn't have the momentum behind his throw because of his poor mechanics. Josh Rosen is next level. On multiple throws he is set up to deliver the throw to a receiver but at the last second checks it down mid throw. You can see him going through the progression and he changes his release at the last second to throw it underneath. Because of his mechanics he can do that without resetting his feet. It's absolutely brilliant to see. Perfect base, good footwork in the pocket, momentum going forward, nice follow through. Just so impressive. Ask any QB to watch the film and it's not even a contest between these guys. So what I think is happening is there's too many cooks in the kitchen. A scout watches the film and sees Darnold as a solid "football player" who is big and strong and effective. He can escape pressure and get the ball to the playmaker. But it's soooo ugly to watch. It's not what you are taught to do at all. We used to have a RB in high school that would do a sweep play with the option to throw and he would basically flip the ball to the wr. He wouldn't even try and grip the ball and throw a spiral he would just kind of flop the ball out there. That's what Darnold reminds me of. No mechanics. Any scout that has Darnold rated high is because they are not a QB, don't understand the position, and do not know what proper mechanics look like. Ask any QB to watch the tape and it would be unanimous. Rosen is the best QB in this draft. ive been saying the exact same thing for months. Rosen is literally perfect. Darnold's best plays come after he made a mistake, and had to dodge a sack and throw on the run. He is actually much more accurate on the run. Darnold scans the field OK but is so unortodox...its simple jus tnot a recipe for success. Rosen knows the coverage before the snap, finds guys easily. its like you are watching him play, and everyone else is in slow motion. I think the scouts see potential with Darnold whereas I already see the finished product of Rosen. Fact is you don't need all that athleticism when you are there mentally, as a QB. the worst athlete in the NFL not punting or kicking is Tom Brady. Dear good lord Jesus please see fit to bless our inept franchise with Rosen!!! Best QB prospect since Luck. Maybe even better than Luck. Edited April 14, 2018 by peterpan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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