Brady's Legacy

[PatsFanNH]

8 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I think everyone can agree that Joe Montana was a vastly superior all time QB than Brady when Brady was 4-2 in Super Bowls (of course, Montana is a perfect 4-0).  But after last year, a lot of people started to suggest that 5-2 was better than 4-0.  Not me.  Where I come from, you cannot beat perfect.  But now that Brady has slipped all the way to 5-3, how does this affect his legacy?  Personally, I think it took a huge hit tonight.  Losing to Nick Foles?  Are you kidding me??  I think Brady slides a few spots after tonight's game for sure.  I mean, he could even win a few more and never catch Troy Aikman, who is a perfect 3-0.  3 losses is historically bad.  That ties him with Fran Tarkenton for crying out loud!  Look at other all time great QB's in Brady's tier- Marino (only 1 loss), Favre (1 loss), Manning (2 losses), etc.  Long story short, he cannot afford to lose another Super Bowl or else people may begin to discount his wins altogether.  Thoughts?

So. Last nights performance made his stance as GOAT into question? Let's see what he did last night:

 

yards: 505

TDs: 3

INT: 0

 

also the O never punted. That loss was all on the Pats D which stunk just a little More than the Eagles last night. 

 

onky thing that has me scratching my head about the loss last night is why Butler never saw game action on D.  (One break up or stopping then just short on 3rd or 4th down changes the game.) 

[hondo in seattle]

I think it's funny that people counted Nick Foles out in recent years because, supposedly, his brilliant 2013 season was all about Chip Kelly.   Yet many of Foles detractors love Montana.  Montana was  just as much a product of Bill Walsh as Foles was a product of Kelly.  Chip didn't throw the ball back in '13!   But I digress - this thread is about Brady vs. Montana.

 

Football is a team sport so I don't care about SB winning percentage as much as I care about the entire body of work.   Brady passed for 500+ yards yesterday with 3 TDs and a passer rating of 115.  What more can you ask?  It wasn't his fault the Pats defense was shredded.  

 

I saw Montana play many times...   IMHO, Brady is better.  His mastery over an extended number of years is simply amazing.

20 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Montana is still the greatest to me.

 

Brady would have never survived the 80s and 90s version of the NFL.  

 

The rule changes allowed for his longevity, not kale smoothies.

 

But if Montana played today, Brady would still be considered his better by most  observers.  

 

Why is the 80s the yardstick?

[Homey D. Clown]

8 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I think everyone can agree that Joe Montana was a vastly superior all time QB than Brady when Brady was 4-2 in Super Bowls (of course, Montana is a perfect 4-0).  But after last year, a lot of people started to suggest that 5-2 was better than 4-0.  Not me.  Where I come from, you cannot beat perfect.  But now that Brady has slipped all the way to 5-3, how does this affect his legacy?  Personally, I think it took a huge hit tonight.  Losing to Nick Foles?  Are you kidding me??  I think Brady slides a few spots after tonight's game for sure.  I mean, he could even win a few more and never catch Troy Aikman, who is a perfect 3-0.  3 losses is historically bad.  That ties him with Fran Tarkenton for crying out loud!  Look at other all time great QB's in Brady's tier- Marino (only 1 loss), Favre (1 loss), Manning (2 losses), etc.  Long story short, he cannot afford to lose another Super Bowl or else people may begin to discount his wins altogether.  Thoughts?

 

I can agree with some of this methodology.  I think for me Joe Montana was a far more intellectual QB with pin point accuracy, where Tom Brady's success comes mostly from borderline cheat play rub routes.

[PatsFanNH]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

I think it's funny that people counted Nick Foles out in recent years because, supposedly, his brilliant 2013 season was all about Chip Kelly.   Yet many of Foles detractors love Montana.  Montana was  just as much a product of Bill Walsh as Foles was a product of Kelly.  Chip didn't throw the ball back in '13!   But I digress - this thread is about Brady vs. Montana.

 

Football is a team sport so I don't care about SB winning percentage as much as I care about the entire body of work.   Brady passed for 500+ yards yesterday with 3 TDs and a passer rating of 115.  What more can you ask?  It wasn't his fault the Pats defense was shredded.  

 

I saw Montana play many times...   IMHO, Brady is better.  His mastery over an extended number of years is simply amazing.

Great post. I wanted comment on What younsaid about Foles.  That is true IMO about any QB they are the perfect fit for the system that team runs.  Brady was a perfect fit for Weis system and when Weis left Brady was well Brady and the O coordinators adapted because you don't fix what isn't broken.   That's why I laugh when people call a good/great QB JUST A SYSTEM QB. All QBs are system QBs and not every system works for any QB.

[May Day 10]

I don't put as much stock into straight up Superbowl performance/record as the rest of the world.

 

Straight up quarterbacking.  If I was a GM, and all players from history were available to build my franchise

 

Manning

Marino

Elway

Brady

Favre

Montana

Unitas

 

Most people would yell at me for downgrading Montana and Brady.... but I think both those guys were insulated in juggernaut organizations and systems.  If Brady was drafted by any other team, IMO he would not be nearly the same.  Same with Montana.  While Manning and Marino and Elway would elevate any team they were put on.

 

[MarlinTheMagician]

Brady is by far better than Montana in my view.  Different time - Montana had loaded, loaded rosters.  Brady doing it in era of parity is sick.  Hate him, but give the devil his due.

[PatsFanNH]

Just now, Homey D. Clown said:

 

I can agree with some of this methodology.  I think for me Joe Montana was a far more intellectual QB with pin point accuracy, where Tom Brady's success comes mostly from borderline cheat play rub routes.

Go back and watch those 49ers games lot more run routes and pic plays than NE runs ever. I do believe they were legal then but please don't revise history saying they didn't do it.

 

Montana was awesome he was the best QB i ever saw before Brady. But they are different eras and IMO its so unfair compare them just like Otto Graham and Montana were unfair to compare. 

 

Brady I think has cemented without a doubt the best QB in the salary cap era and is in the mentioning for the best ever. But the best ever will always be personal opinion.

[DCOrange]

I personally don't see Brady as the best QB, but as one of the other posters mentioned, I don't put as much stock in Super Bowl record as others apparently do.

 

Having said that, anyone that thinks last night HURTS Brady's legacy is silly; he was dead last on the list of the reasons his team lost.

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

History repeated itself. 

1. No QB that lead the league in passing yards has ever won a SB
2. No league MVP QB has won a SB in the last 18 or 19 occurences
3. When Nick Saban wins a National Championship Belichick loses the SB.  
4. Madden curse

 

Next year's Madden cover should be Brady dropping the crucial catch

[Chicken Boo]

16 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Why is the 80s the yardstick?

 

It's only the yard stick in terms of the rule book.  QB protections were non-existent and we all know how much Brady hates being hit.

[PatsFanNH]

3 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

I don't put as much stock into straight up Superbowl performance/record as the rest of the world.

 

Straight up quarterbacking.  If I was a GM, and all players from history were available to build my franchise

 

Manning

Marino

Elway

Brady

Favre

Montana

Unitas

 

Most people would yell at me for downgrading Montana and Brady.... but I think both those guys were insulated in juggernaut organizations and systems.  If Brady was drafted by any other team, IMO he would not be nearly the same.  Same with Montana.  While Manning and Marino and Elway would elevate any team they were put on.

 

Marino - failed to accomplish anything in the playoffs. The one year he had a great D they blew the game. (He is great stat wise but come big games he choked.) I always felt he was a stat king but I wouldn't want him in a big game.

 

Elway - I dare say was reliant on his RB to get over the hump. (He was 0-3 in SB and crushed all three times) great QB but not too 3! Top 5 yes.

 

Manning - was great! I don't think we ever saw how great he could be since he always had crappy coaching. (Sorry I feel Dungy is way over rated.) and a GM who never built a TEAM around him and in the later years an O line to protect him. He is defiantly top 3 and imagine what he could have done with a coach like BB.

 

Montana -- was just amazing and either 1 or 2. If you don't believe he would have won anywhere back in the day then well you don't remember how he scrambled and made plays and did just about everything well.

 

Brady -- how he is so low on your list is weird. Man leads his team to more. I toured than any other QB ever, goes to the AFC Championship game 75% of the time and the SB 50% of the time and when he loses a SB it is usually because the D can't make one stop! (Or last night any stop!)

[Wsam4031]

9 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I think everyone can agree that Joe Montana was a vastly superior all time QB than Brady when Brady was 4-2 in Super Bowls (of course, Montana is a perfect 4-0).  But after last year, a lot of people started to suggest that 5-2 was better than 4-0.  Not me.  Where I come from, you cannot beat perfect.  But now that Brady has slipped all the way to 5-3, how does this affect his legacy?  Personally, I think it took a huge hit tonight.  Losing to Nick Foles?  Are you kidding me??  I think Brady slides a few spots after tonight's game for sure.  I mean, he could even win a few more and never catch Troy Aikman, who is a perfect 3-0.  3 losses is historically bad.  That ties him with Fran Tarkenton for crying out loud!  Look at other all time great QB's in Brady's tier- Marino (only 1 loss), Favre (1 loss), Manning (2 losses), etc.  Long story short, he cannot afford to lose another Super Bowl or else people may begin to discount his wins altogether.  Thoughts?

I hate brady as much as the next bills fan but don't agree with this at all. Still the best of all time and that's not easy to say. Guy has been to 8 superbowls! 8! that's insane

[Niagara Dude]

9 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I think everyone can agree that Joe Montana was a vastly superior all time QB than Brady when Brady was 4-2 in Super Bowls (of course, Montana is a perfect 4-0).  But after last year, a lot of people started to suggest that 5-2 was better than 4-0.  Not me.  Where I come from, you cannot beat perfect.  But now that Brady has slipped all the way to 5-3, how does this affect his legacy?  Personally, I think it took a huge hit tonight.  Losing to Nick Foles?  Are you kidding me??  I think Brady slides a few spots after tonight's game for sure.  I mean, he could even win a few more and never catch Troy Aikman, who is a perfect 3-0.  3 losses is historically bad.  That ties him with Fran Tarkenton for crying out loud!  Look at other all time great QB's in Brady's tier- Marino (only 1 loss), Favre (1 loss), Manning (2 losses), etc.  Long story short, he cannot afford to lose another Super Bowl or else people may begin to discount his wins altogether.  Thoughts?

Dude the guy is 40 year old and still an NFL MVP,  if he defense does anything positive in that game he wins without question.  He gets gets GOAT title by his high level of play at his advanced age alone.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Marino - failed to accomplish anything in the playoffs. The one year he had a great D they blew the game. (He is great stat wise but come big games he choked.) I always felt he was a stat king but I wouldn't want him in a big game.

 

Elway - I dare say was reliant on his RB to get over the hump. (He was 0-3 in SB and crushed all three times) great QB but not too 3! Top 5 yes.

 

Manning - was great! I don't think we ever saw how great he could be since he always had crappy coaching. (Sorry I feel Dungy is way over rated.) and a GM who never built a TEAM around him and in the later years an O line to protect him. He is defiantly top 3 and imagine what he could have done with a coach like BB.

 

Montana -- was just amazing and either 1 or 2. If you don't believe he would have won anywhere back in the day then well you don't remember how he scrambled and made plays and did just about everything well.

 

Brady -- how he is so low on your list is weird. Man leads his team to more. I toured than any other QB ever, goes to the AFC Championship game 75% of the time and the SB 50% of the time and when he loses a SB it is usually because the D can't make one stop! (Or last night any stop!)

Sure, Brady had some gaudy stats, mostly in garbage time, but he also missed that trick play catch (success factor should be near 100% as we saw Foles catch a very similar pass only a short time later), allowed himself to be sacked and STRIPPED like fresh fish at Attica, barely completed a 4th and 10 to keep the game alive, and almost didn't drive the Pats to a last ditch Hail Maria pass play for the tie.  Last year he allowed his team to be waaaaay behind before barely squeaking out the win with two td's and 2 point conversions after evening the score.   I'm surprised he's this high on anyone's list.

 

The good news is, I think he's gonna be ok in life.

 

[May Day 10]

13 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Marino - failed to accomplish anything in the playoffs. The one year he had a great D they blew the game. (He is great stat wise but come big games he choked.) I always felt he was a stat king but I wouldn't want him in a big game.

 

Elway - I dare say was reliant on his RB to get over the hump. (He was 0-3 in SB and crushed all three times) great QB but not too 3! Top 5 yes.

 

Manning - was great! I don't think we ever saw how great he could be since he always had crappy coaching. (Sorry I feel Dungy is way over rated.) and a GM who never built a TEAM around him and in the later years an O line to protect him. He is defiantly top 3 and imagine what he could have done with a coach like BB.

 

Montana -- was just amazing and either 1 or 2. If you don't believe he would have won anywhere back in the day then well you don't remember how he scrambled and made plays and did just about everything well.

 

Brady -- how he is so low on your list is weird. Man leads his team to more. I toured than any other QB ever, goes to the AFC Championship game 75% of the time and the SB 50% of the time and when he loses a SB it is usually because the D can't make one stop! (Or last night any stop!)

 

 

I respect that, and don't think you're wrong.... and I realize Im likely in the minority.... but I put a lot more stock in the team and coaching.  I place much more of the Patriots' success at the feet of Belichick.  Brady is great cerebrally to run the offense and make excellent snap decisions and throws, but without the Patriots, I don't think he sniffs the "team accolades" that he gets with the Patriots, which is what is used to put him over the top.  

 

Elway, Manning, and Marino, I thought were much better pure QBs who dealt with much more flawed teams and coaches, which prevented them obtaining the gaudy team accomplishments.  

Edited February 5, 2018 by May Day 10

[PatsFanNH]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Sure, Brady had some gaudy stats, mostly in garbage time, but he also missed that trick play catch (success factor should be near 100% as we saw Foles catch a very similar pass only a short time later), allowed himself to be sacked and STRIPPED like fresh fish at Attica, barely completed a 4th and 10 to keep the game alive, and almost didn't drive the Pats to a last ditch Hail Maria pass play for the tie.  Last year he allowed his team to be waaaaay behind before barely squeaking out the win with two td's and 2 point conversions after evening the score.   I'm surprised he's this high on anyone's list.

 

The good news is, I think he's gonna be ok in life.

 

Wait mostly in garbage time? Are you high? They had the lead with 8 minutes to go and he had almost 500 yards then and all 3 TDs.

 

so last year they win and he leads the team to 34 points but again.. it wasn't him it was some lucky fairy did all that.

 

your biased hatred is apparent..

 

 

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

 

I respect that, and don't think you're wrong.... and I realize Im likely in the minority.... but I put a lot more stock in the team and coaching.  I place much more of the Patriots' success at the feet of Belichick.  Brady is great cerebrally to run the offense and make excellent snap decisions and throws, but without the Patriots, I don't think he sniffs the "team accolades" that he gets with the Patriots, which is what is used to put him over the top.  

 

Elway, Manning, and Marino, I thought were much better pure QBs who dealt with much more flawed teams and coaches, which prevented them obtaining the gaudy team accomplishments.  

 

Marino

Montana

Manning

 

That's my top3

 

After that it gets muddy to me

[Kirby Jackson]

Brady is the best ever and it isn’t that close. I wish that he wasn’t but you put his resume next to anyone else and he blows it out of the water. 

[rodneykm]

Like him or not, he's at worst in the conversation for the greatest QB to ever play this game. He's also one of the most respectful guys ( for the most part ) in the game. I realize that by saying that as a Bills fan I'll get called all kinds of stuff - fine..whatever. 

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Brady is the best ever and it isn’t that close. I wish that he wasn’t but you put his resume next to anyone else and he blows it out of the water. 

In retrospect, it’s amazing how Michigan developed the best QB of all time into a 6th round draft pick. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by YoloinOhio