Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 On 11/24/2017 at 1:32 PM, matter2003 said: He is the real deal but two years later the team is in the same position as the Sabres are with their franchise player...namely the cellar. What then? Its a thought nobody really talks about...all you hear is how they need this type of player...and I wholeheartedly agree. What we don't stop and talk about is what happens if he is as good as advertised but the team still sucks? What do we do then? If the team is still bad is he really a franchise QB then? (I am assuming you are talking about QBs OP and not just franchise players in general). Franchise QB and winning typically go hand and hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 On 11/24/2017 at 1:32 PM, matter2003 said: He is the real deal but two years later the team is in the same position as the Sabres are with their franchise player...namely the cellar. What then? Its a thought nobody really talks about...all you hear is how they need this type of player...and I wholeheartedly agree. What we don't stop and talk about is what happens if he is as good as advertised but the team still sucks? What do we do then? Above is your Original Post. You don't mention ANYTHING about these complications in your very basic question. You proposed we get a "real deal" QB...one you upped the ante on in the reply below to "ELITE" by the way. You then pose the scenario that despite this we are still not winning...what do we do? Well what are you looking for? If the team around him is not good or weak in key areas, you continue to try and improve those areas through the draft, trades, and FA. Is it easy...nope...but thats the ONLY actual and legit answer to your basic question, and its so obvious I don't know why it needs to be asked in the first place. Yet somehow, you want to start flinging insults about basic reading comprehension and add all this other nonsense that wasn't part of question in the first place. 25 minutes ago, matter2003 said: This thread was started well before today. It's pretty simple, it only takes basic reading comprehension to understand it. It's a valid question. That's a very simplistic and unrealistic way to look at things. One that doesn't take into account the realities of a salary cap and free agency. You might have a great player that you want to keep but you simply can't due to salary cap implications. You only can spend so much money for each position on the team. You can't keep an expensive second WR if you already are paying a #1. Maybe you have to let a D-Lineman or O-Lineman go that you really don't want to because you know they are going to get a boatload from a taem on the open market and it breaks your salary cap structure. This is not making your team better by having to replace him but its a neccessary evil. Saying its as easy as looking at talent and then replacing it with better talent is a really silly way to look at things that doesn't take into account a lot of variables that need to be taken into account. Yes, you can draft players to replace ones that you let go but that doesn't mean you are making your team better by doing it. Also doesn't account for coach preferences, schemes, etc. A player may be a great player but not great in that scheme because you are asking him to do things he doesn't do well based on his role in that scheme. So back to the topic...replacing people is all well and good but what if the QB is the problem? He puts up big numbers, big stats, is considered elite, but he doesn't win games? But wait...now your scenario changes...in your scenario now, the QB is now ELITE with big numbers and stats, but also IS the problem still based on your bolded comment above? How is an Elite QB (as you described it) with big numbers and stats STILL the problem for why a TEAM loses games in a TEAM sport? If the QB is playing at an Elite level and they are still losing, he clearly isn't the problem on that team. You literally have described the Saints for the past 5 years...ELITE QB, but until this year couldn't win more than 7 games. So are you saying Brees was the probelm? That wouldn't even make sense...the problem was the pathetic Defense and inconsistent run balance. They kept adding to the D and built the run game up, and now are one of the better records in the NFL this season. PS: If winning and losing was dictated by having an Elite QB, then Saints and Packers would have a lot of SB rings that they don't have. Its going to take more than just an Elite QB...and that means keep trying to build up the weak spots of the team via Draft/Trades/FA...so again, there is your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 10:51 AM, KD in CA said: You sell the team to some big tech investor who will move them to Oakland to replace the Raiders. I think the Pegulas have more money than your big tech investor! There are only 32 openings for a NFL Team Owner. I don't think Pegula's give up their position that easily 6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: You literally have described the Saints for the past 5 years...ELITE QB, but until this year couldn't win more than 7 games. So are you saying Brees was the probelm? That wouldn't even make sense...the problem was the pathetic Defense and inconsistent run balance. They kept adding to the D and built the run game up, and now are one of the better records in the NFL this season. PS: If winning and losing was dictated by having an Elite QB, then Saints and Packers would have a lot of SB rings that they don't have. Its going to take more than just an Elite QB...and that means keep trying to build up the weak spots of the team via Draft/Trades/FA...so again, there is your answer. And that is why it makes ZERO sense when people are clamoring for the colts to get rid of Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Once you have the QB it is easier to put the pieces around. The focus should be on the QB and the trenches on both sides for the next two drafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesPlayoffs Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 12:21 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said: I would also posit close to or better than 60% completions, near 7 AY/A and a TD/INT ratio of >1.5 as criteria for assessing success of a modern QB. By that measurement, TT has been a success in Buffalo. 63% completion pct, 7.2 YPA and a 3.3 TD/INT ratio for his time as a Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 once you get the franchise qb you get 10 plus years of completive meaningful football. Sure there will be a down year or two but most season you will be making the playoffs. After that you roll the dice . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Above is your Original Post. You don't mention ANYTHING about these complications in your very basic question. You proposed we get a "real deal" QB...one you upped the ante on in the reply below to "ELITE" by the way. You then pose the scenario that despite this we are still not winning...what do we do? Well what are you looking for? If the team around him is not good or weak in key areas, you continue to try and improve those areas through the draft, trades, and FA. Is it easy...nope...but thats the ONLY actual and legit answer to your basic question, and its so obvious I don't know why it needs to be asked in the first place. Yet somehow, you want to start flinging insults about basic reading comprehension and add all this other nonsense that wasn't part of question in the first place. But wait...now your scenario changes...in your scenario now, the QB is now ELITE with big numbers and stats, but also IS the problem still based on your bolded comment above? How is an Elite QB (as you described it) with big numbers and stats STILL the problem for why a TEAM loses games in a TEAM sport? If the QB is playing at an Elite level and they are still losing, he clearly isn't the problem on that team. You literally have described the Saints for the past 5 years...ELITE QB, but until this year couldn't win more than 7 games. So are you saying Brees was the probelm? That wouldn't even make sense...the problem was the pathetic Defense and inconsistent run balance. They kept adding to the D and built the run game up, and now are one of the better records in the NFL this season. PS: If winning and losing was dictated by having an Elite QB, then Saints and Packers would have a lot of SB rings that they don't have. Its going to take more than just an Elite QB...and that means keep trying to build up the weak spots of the team via Draft/Trades/FA...so again, there is your answer. It is about more than just a top end QB.... but until you have that piece it should be absolutely your number 1 priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 it's all about drafting on both sides of the ball. the colts suck at defensive drafting. after what we did with last year's draft i'm confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 If we draft a franchise QB in the 2018 draft, we should have a vet quarterback on the roster who can start the season, and help develop the rookie. Ideally, this would be someone who was a consummate professional, knows the team, and the system, and can win some games while the rookie learns for much, if not all of the season before starting. If only we could find somebody like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) Don't try because it might not work... What a way to live! It would sure suck to have Carson Wentz or Jared Goff. Looks like those teams are mired in misery... Edited November 27, 2017 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Mitchell Trubisky does not look special. Goff sucked in his first year and now has a great coach and is much improved. You just never know how these "franchise" QB's will turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 So what's the point? Drafting a QB is not guaranteed to work? Or is it "just stick with what we have... after all, it could be worse..." The 2nd one is just so pathetic and if the team has that mindset we are screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: It is about more than just a top end QB.... but until you have that piece it should be absolutely your number 1 priority. I don't disagree with that, the OP stated what happens if we have that guy in place already and aren't losing. Which at that point it becomes about the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: So what's the point? Drafting a QB is not guaranteed to work? Or is it "just stick with what we have... after all, it could be worse..." The 2nd one is just so pathetic and if the team has that mindset we are screwed Who are you responding to? Is there anyone who is not advocating drafting a QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Rocky Landing said: Who are you responding to? Is there anyone who is not advocating drafting a QB? Nobody in particular... I just wonder what the point of saying "it might not work out" and pointing to the Sabres is, if not to suggest that it isn't worth it. Here's the thing: The Sabres have a superstar player that pretty much cannot be acquired any other way than drafting at the top. They stink now, but assuming the new GM can clean up Murray's mess and build a team, you have that guy on the roster. Or we could be the Lions, with a very good young QB who throws for a gazillion yards and makes the playoffs a couple times but also makes a lot of mistakes because he has to carry the team and has "1000 yard stare" Caldwell as his head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) On 11/25/2017 at 8:46 AM, DriveFor1Outta5 said: The fact that you included Bradford as a “hit” made me ask myself a simple question. Is he the most overrated QB in the history of the game? If we draft a guy who has a Bradford like career, our playoff drought will not be over. I have always thought Bradford was one of the single most overrated QBs ever. The guy came out of college with enormous hype and praise and can't even get a team to the playoffs. The national title game against Florida exposed his flaws as a QB when he played a fast defense that was talented. I always thought in college he was a product of the spread they ran not because of his talent. Personally I think he gets as much attention because a lot of media had him as a cant miss type guy and can't swallow their pride that he is a very average starter. Peter King the one year had him as like the MVP or Comeback player of the year and couldn't stop ravishing how great he was for Chip Kellys system. The fact Nick Foles out performed him in that offense is all you need to know. Edited November 27, 2017 by corta765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 9 hours ago, TheFunPolice said: Nobody in particular... I just wonder what the point of saying "it might not work out" and pointing to the Sabres is, if not to suggest that it isn't worth it. Here's the thing: The Sabres have a superstar player that pretty much cannot be acquired any other way than drafting at the top. They stink now, but assuming the new GM can clean up Murray's mess and build a team, you have that guy on the roster. Or we could be the Lions, with a very good young QB who throws for a gazillion yards and makes the playoffs a couple times but also makes a lot of mistakes because he has to carry the team and has "1000 yard stare" Caldwell as his head coach. Good points. But, maybe more to your point, is less the question of whether or not it is worth it to draft a QB high (I think 90%+ are in agreement that it is), and more of a question of how we manage, and develop that QB. For example, I would submit that Fisher (his record, and subsequent firing, notwithstanding) was wise to not start Goff right away, and that Goff has benefitted from sitting behind Case Keenum for a season. I just hope that we aren't stuck with Nate Peterman, and/or whatever low-rent, vet scrub is available, as our othe QBs. I hope Taylor is with us next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 11 hours ago, TheFunPolice said: So what's the point? Drafting a QB is not guaranteed to work? Or is it "just stick with what we have... after all, it could be worse..." The 2nd one is just so pathetic and if the team has that mindset we are screwed I vote for both. Keep Hotrod. Draft a QB or sign a FA. Best QB plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 On 11/26/2017 at 8:37 PM, Tatonka68 said: Then they draft defense in 2019. I want a good FA receiver for this guy too, like an Alshon Jeffrey for the Iggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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