The only Mahomes thread you need

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

Because that doesn't happen that often. I just looked at the last 6 classes and only 2013 could be described that way. 1/6= 16%

 

Bills fans have EJ Syndrome, the fear of EJ around every corner!!

You might want to check out 2010 and 2007 as well. We also need to wait on 2015. Bills fans have "other QB goggles"

so that they have already annointed Winston and Mariota the next great ones. They have to sustain their success before they can be considered elite.

Edited March 7, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Bill_with_it]

Ftfy

 

 

 

Why change my quote. If you dont like it dont read it, but certqinely dont change it like a 13 year that feels like he/she has been done wrong.

[jeffismagic]

You might want to check out 2010 and 2007 as well.

 

I just used the last 6 years.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

I just used the last 6 years.

Correct, and you used an unfairly small sample size to benefit your personal point of view.

[GunnerBill]

You might want to check out 2010 and 2007 as well. We also need to wait on 2015. Bills fans have "other QB goggles"

so that they have already annointed Winston and Mariota the next great ones. They have to sustain their success before they can be considered elite.

 

2010 was Bradford. He isn't a true franchise guy but he isn't a bust either. He is a Tyrod Taylor level guy. 2007 I will give you.... that was a bad, bad year.

 

 

Mariota and Winston are both going to be superstars. If you didn't like those two as prospects then you will never like a Quarterback in a draft.

Edited March 7, 2017 by GunnerBill

[BuffaloHokie13]

 

2010 was Bradford. He isn't a true franchise guy but he isn't a bust either. He is a Tyrod Taylor level guy.

Exactly, let's get a 1st and a 4th that turns into a 2nd if they win the super bowl out of Tyrod!

[jeffismagic]

Correct, and you used an unfairly small sample size to benefit your personal point of view.

 

No, I just happened to have a limited amount of time and looked at the last 6 years. Later today after work I will be glad to do a 10 year analysis. Going back further is pointless as scouting, prospects, etc change so much.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

2010 was Bradford. He isn't a true franchise guy but he isn't a bust either. He is a Tyrod Taylor level guy. 2007 I will give you.... that was a bad, bad year.

 

 

Mariota and Winston are both going to be superstars. If you didn't like those two as prospects then you will never like a Quarterback in a draft.

If Bradford is the best you could get out of a QB in a draft I'd call that a bust. Bradford is a bust for a first pick. Would you be happy with drafting Watson number ten, and him having the production of Bradford? No we wouldn't, because the playoff drought would continue for another ten years.

[GunnerBill]

If Bradford is the best you could get out of a QB in a draft I'd call that a bust. Bradford is a bust for a first pick. Would you be happy with drafting Watson number ten, and him having the production of Bradford? No we wouldn't, because the playoff drought would continue for another ten years.

 

I'd rather do that than stand pat with a guy we know will extend the drought - yes.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

No, I just happened to have a limited amount of time and looked at the last 6 years. Later today after work I will be glad to do a 10 year analysis. Going back further is pointless as scouting, prospects, etc change so much.

Fair enough.

[Maury Ballstein]

Why change my quote. If you dont like it dont read it, but certqinely dont change it like a 13 year that feels like he/she has been done wrong.

Welcome aboard , you don't make the rules new guy.

 

I'd drop the whole holier than thou shtick if I was you.

 

Your comments to bandit and Jeff are disturbing.

 

This will conclude our talks. Can't wait to see Tru/Wat/Mahomes in red and blue.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Welcome aboard , you don't make the rules new guy.

 

I'd drop the whole holier than thou shtick if I was you.

 

Your comments to bandit and Jeff are disturbing.

 

This will conclude our talks. Can't wait to see Tru/Wat/Mahomes in red and blue.

Houston is likely to try to get one of them, you're right!

[DriveFor1Outta5]

 

I'd rather do that than stand pat with a guy we know will extend the drought - yes.

Right, but if your assessment of a draft is the best you are going to get is a guy at Bradford's level you wouldn't draft him in the first. A draft with Bradford as the number one is a bust.

[jeffismagic]

Right, but if your assessment of a draft is the best you are going to get is a guy at Bradford's level you wouldn't draft him in the first. A draft with Bradford as the number one is a bust.

 

That is not his assessment of the QB's. The Bradford thing was how many angels could dance on a pin with you discussing a certain draft year.

[Maury Ballstein]

Houston is likely to try to get one of them, you're right!

Please god no. Just another afc team to mush our faces

[jeffismagic]

Please god no. Just another afc team to mush our faces

 

And Houston already has the D. With elite playmakers that the Bills no longer have.

[GunnerBill]

Right, but if your assessment of a draft is the best you are going to get is a guy at Bradford's level you wouldn't draft him in the first. A draft with Bradford as the number one is a bust.

 

When I look at the guys I had in my "game manager" level when I did my Quarterback thread (http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191762-a-favourite-offseason-thread-quarterback-rankings/)

 

Which for those who don't want to look back at the thread was:

 

The Game Managers:

17. Alex Smith

18. Andy Dalton

19. Kirk Cousins

20. Ryan Tannehill

21. Tyrod Taylor

22. Sam Bradford

 

You have:

3 1st round picks (2 of whom went #1 overall);

1 2nd round pick;

1 4th round pick;

1 6th round pick.

 

So whilst ideally you find a Quarterback at that level in a later round.... the truth is a lot of guys who are even at that level are picked in the 1st. I wouldn't call any of those Quarterbacks busts. If I think that is the floor of a guy I like in whichever draft then I pick him there and hope I get better than the floor.

Edited March 7, 2017 by GunnerBill

[dave mcbride]

 

When I look at the guys I had in my "game manager" level when I did my Quarterback thread (http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191762-a-favourite-offseason-thread-quarterback-rankings/)

 

Which for those who don't want to look back at the thread was:

 

The Game Managers:

17. Alex Smith

18. Andy Dalton

19. Kirk Cousins

20. Ryan Tannehill

21. Tyrod Taylor

22. Sam Bradford

 

You have:

3 1st round picks (2 of whom went #1 overall);

1 2nd round pick;

1 4th round pick;

1 6th round pick.

 

So whilst ideally you find a Quarterback at that level in a later round.... the truth is a lot of guys who are even at that level are picked in the 1st. I wouldn't call any of those Quarterbacks busts. If I think that is the floor of a guy I like in whichever draft then I pick him there and hope I get better than the floor.

Bradford had a pretty darn good season last year - 71.6 completion rate (which led the NFL), nearly 4K yards, a 99.3 rating, a 20/5 TD/INT ratio, and 7 ypa. It's not otherworldly, but it was definitely better than average. The Vikings had the worst running game in the league (by far - 32nd in yards and 32nd in ypa) , which killed their offense. He may be on the verge of elevating himself out of the game manager category.

Edited March 7, 2017 by dave mcbride

[BillsFan17]

Watson never completed less than 67% of his passes. How is the kid being deemed inaccurate? Especially when his attempts rose every year he played college. His YPA isn't anything to sneeze at either with 7.9.

 

One of my favorite assets of this kid is his accuracy when the stage is the biggest. Doesn't get rattled and dials it in.

 

Sure, there are times where he will make a risky throw and allow his WR to make a play. I am taking that method at the position over the simple dump pff that won't go for first down yardage on third down. Not for nothing everyone talks about how good of a WR Williams is- watson had a phenomenal year WITHOUT him in the lineup last year.

 

Now, people give watson grief for utilizing Williams ability to win contested balls. Not for nothing I would love to have a QB that would do that more with the likes of Watkins, Clay and if we keep him (Hunter).

 

People can try and creative whatever narrative they want about Watson, but there is absolutely no denying his ability.

Edited March 7, 2017 by BillsFan17

[JohnC]

Fair enough. I don't want it sound like all his success is becaue of no defense. I'm just really afraid of a predetermined read air raid offense QB. He has all time great arm talent. It means nothing if he can't adjust to the pro game. It won't be easy because he is already faced with a steep learning curve.

Your analysis regarding the necessity of adjusting to the pro game is accurate. It also applies to every qb in this draft and every draft. None of this year's crop is a plug in and play type of qb. I'm fine with that. For the most part (not all) there is an adjustment period for all rookie players. Good coaching and a stellar work ethic are part of the grooming process. Especially for qbs expecting instant gratification and an immediate return on an investment is not rooted in the demanding reality of the NFL.

[dave mcbride]

Watson never completed less than 67% of his passes. How is the kid being deemed inaccurate? Especially when his attempts rose every year he played college. His YPA isn't anything to sneeze at either with 7.9.

 

One of my favorite assets of this kid is his accuracy when the stage is the biggest. Doesn't get rattled and dials it in.

 

Sure, there are times where he will make a risky throw and allow his WR to make a play. I am taking that method at the position over the simple dump pff that won't go for first down yardage on third down. Not for nothing everyone talks about how good of a WR Williams is- watson had a phenomenal year WITHOUT him in the lineup last year.

 

Now, people give watson grief for utilizing Williams ability to win contested balls. Not for nothing I would love to have a QB that would do that more with the likes of Watkins, Clay and if we keep him (Hunter).

 

People can try and creative whatever narrative they want about Watson, but there is absolutely no denying his ability.

College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in.

[jeffismagic]

College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in.

 

There are concerns with Watson and accuracy. It's not a fatal flaw but it's there.

 

Shanahan: It takes a while to learn to be a pocket passer. You can tell that he struggled a little bit with the intermediate and deep routes. That does take some time. Your footwork in the pocket, your ability to slide in the pocket, instead of just taking off and looking downfield or looking at the holes in the defense where you can keep your head up and still slide and still focus downfield. And key the whole defense? That takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight. So that’s something he is going to have to work on.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/01/11/nfl-draft-deshaun-watson-stock-round-scouting-report-mike-shanahan-josh-mccown-randall-cunningham

[dave mcbride]

You can be in a poor situation and still show more than Goff did last year.

Yeah, he looked really bad, even factoring in the situation. I'd be very worried if I were the Rams.

[jeffismagic]

Yeah, he looked really bad, even factoring in the situation. I'd be very worried if I were the Rams.

 

Yeah, I was discussing Goff before last year's draft and I remember my scouting friend saying he wouldn't take Goff in the 1st, rather have Dak. Called Goff a robot.

[Bill_with_it]

Welcome aboard , you don't make the rules new guy.

 

I'd drop the whole holier than thou shtick if I was you.

 

Your comments to bandit and Jeff are disturbing.

 

This will conclude our talks. Can't wait to see Tru/Wat/Mahomes in red and blue.

im not holier than though. When you make a statement as to let Tyrod go then draft a qb round one and say who cares if he fails or not we do it again the next year. Thats borderline lunaric. Because im a new poster doesnt mean I cant sniff out the terrible takes on thia board which your posts have been. Good day and hope you have the same.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Bradford had a pretty darn good season last year - 71.6 completion rate (which led the NFL), nearly 4K yards, a 99.3 rating, a 20/5 TD/INT ratio, and 7 ypa. It's not otherworldly, but it was definitely better than average. The Vikings had the worst running game in the league (by far - 32nd in yards and 32nd in ypa) , which killed their offense. He may be on the verge of elevating himself out of the game manager category.

Further proof that numbers don't tell the entire story. Watching a few Vikings games last year showed me that Bradford was clearly a liability. He played well the first few games, and had a miserable second half of the season.

 

When I look at the guys I had in my "game manager" level when I did my Quarterback thread (http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191762-a-favourite-offseason-thread-quarterback-rankings/)

 

Which for those who don't want to look back at the thread was:

The Game Managers:

17. Alex Smith

18. Andy Dalton

19. Kirk Cousins

20. Ryan Tannehill

21. Tyrod Taylor

22. Sam Bradford

 

You have:

3 1st round picks (2 of whom went #1 overall);

1 2nd round pick;

1 4th round pick;

1 6th round pick.

 

So whilst ideally you find a Quarterback at that level in a later round.... the truth is a lot of guys who are even at that level are picked in the 1st. I wouldn't call any of those Quarterbacks busts. If I think that is the floor of a guy I like in whichever draft then I pick him there and hope I get better than the floor.

We can split hairs over the semantics of Bradford being a bust, but he certainly isn't what anyone dreams of from a first round QB. You draft a first round QB with the hopes of winning titles. Anything less is a disappointment barring other extreme weakness on the team. If I knew that a guy at the level of Bradford was the best I could get in the first round, I'd wait another year to select a QB. That's how I feel about this years QB class. I don't personally see anyone being much better than the level of Bradford. That would influence me if I were GM to wait until next year to draft a high round QB. The QB class of 2007 that included Bradford can't be considered anything other than a bust. If Bradford is the best of a QB class, it's not a class that I'd want to pick from. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[BillsFan17]

College accuracy is tricky, especially with regard to dominant/elite programs. Manuel was very accurate in college, but if you actually watched FSU games, receivers were wide open all of the time. The same goes for Clemson- they are loaded at the WR position and guys are always open against the zone defenses they face every week. I'm not saying he's not accurate; just that you need factor in the situations he threw the ball in.

Not the end all be all, but you cant deny the fact the impression it gives that, despite the turnovers he is still very accurate. With or without big time WRs in the lineup.

 

Heck, won the Heisman without Mike Williams.

 

His decision making needs to be worked on,I call it the John Tavares effect, which, at times you take too much onto your own shoulders when you to shouldn't be. In turn, mistakes are made.

 

I think, without a shadow of a doubt, if his INT numbers were lower he would be a sure fired top ten discussion pick instead of just a "first rounder."

 

As far as Manuel, not to be an apologist, but by all accounts the kid was rushed. Despite that, played very well in his early rookie starts.

 

The injury against the Browns is when I feel like the set back started and was never corrected from there.

 

I feel with Watson, and this whole for that matter, like Manuel shouldn't be pushed into the lineup early.

[jeffismagic]

Further proof that numbers don't tell the entire story. Watching a few Vikings games last year showed me that Bradford was clearly a liability. He played well the first few games, and had a miserable second half of the season. We can split hairs over the semantics of Bradford being a bust, but he certainly isn't what anyone dreams of from a first round QB. You draft a first round QB with the hopes of winning titles. Anything less is a disappointment barring other extreme weakness on the team. If I knew that a guy at the level of Bradford was the best I could get in the first round, I'd wait another year to select a QB. That's how I feel about this years QB class. I don't personally see anyone being much better than the level of Bradford. That would influence me if I were GM to wait until next year to draft a high round QB. The QB class of 2007 that included Bradford can't be considered anything other than a bust. If Bradford is the best of a QB class, it's not a class that I'd want to pick from.

An injured Sam Bradford is not the best upside for the QBs on this class. Sorry, not even close.

 

Would I pass on a QB with

 

Great Pocket Presence

 

Great Accuracy

 

Big Arm

 

Lightning Release

 

Athleticism and Mobility to Throw On Run

 

 

 

No, I would not.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

An injured Sam Bradford is not the best upside for the QBs on this class. Sorry, not even close.

 

Would I pass on a QB with

 

Great Pocket Presence

 

Great Accuracy

 

Big Arm

 

Lightning Release

 

Athleticism and Mobility to Throw On Run

 

 

 

No, I would not.

He's been hurt his entire career, and when he's healthy he's average. Bradford is not any better than TT. This is the case of the "every other QB is better" syndrome. I just don't like this season class. I wouldn't have a problem doing what no one has discussed yet. Take a QB in the third or forth. That way you haven't invested much in a questionable class. Next year take a guy in the first. I just really like Darnold,Rosen,Luke Falk, and a guy from Wyoming named Josh Allen. I'm just not confident in this years class. I would be disappointed if we used the tenth pick on QB. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Alphadawg7]

Watson never completed less than 67% of his passes. How is the kid being deemed inaccurate? Especially when his attempts rose every year he played college. His YPA isn't anything to sneeze at either with 7.9.

 

One of my favorite assets of this kid is his accuracy when the stage is the biggest. Doesn't get rattled and dials it in.

 

Sure, there are times where he will make a risky throw and allow his WR to make a play. I am taking that method at the position over the simple dump pff that won't go for first down yardage on third down. Not for nothing everyone talks about how good of a WR Williams is- watson had a phenomenal year WITHOUT him in the lineup last year.

 

Now, people give watson grief for utilizing Williams ability to win contested balls. Not for nothing I would love to have a QB that would do that more with the likes of Watkins, Clay and if we keep him (Hunter).

 

People can try and creative whatever narrative they want about Watson, but there is absolutely no denying his ability.

 

To answer your questions:

 

1. He has 30 INT's in his last 2 college seasons (which is like a season and a half in the NFL) where the talent is lower, the schemes are simpler.

2. People need to remember that just because a pass "completes" doesn't mean it was a good or accurate throw. He has benefited from the both the scheme and talent at WR as well which helps bolster accuracy. Even in the Championship game he made some inaccurate throws at the end of the game that his WR's made insane catches to complete to bail him out where if they don't, they lose that game. He's not the least accurate QB by any means, but there are reasons why his accuracy is questionable at the next level.

[jeffismagic]

He's been hurt his entire career, and when he's healthy he's average. Bradford is not any better than TT. This is the case of the "every other QB is better" syndrome.

 

I have no idea why you are still talking about Bradford. Your take that Bradford is the best case scenario is your own and not shared by others.

 

I see Mahomes as a future top 5 QB if he hits potential.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

I have no idea why you are still talking about Bradford. Your take that Bradford is the best case scenario is your own and not shared by others.

 

I see Mahomes as a future top 5 QB if he hits potential.

You mentioned Bradford, and I responded. I'm done with him. His name came up because I mentioned how many QB classes were total busts. I think that this year will be too. People started claiming that Bradford is a better QB than he actually is. I'm just not fond of this years QB class. I really like next years QB class. I could very well be wrong. In reality no one knows, including the pros who get paid to know these things. I just felt the need to offer an opposing view to the idea that Mahomes is guaranteed to be the next Rodgers. Edited March 8, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Alphadawg7]

Bottom line is this:

 

This could not be a worse year for the Bills to target a QB in the draft for a number of reasons:

 

1. We have a lot of holes to fill, and this draft is LOADED with talent in a lot of areas like S, CB, WR, TE, and LB and is already being called one of the richest and deepest drafts in a long time.

2. The 2 weakest parts of this draft are OT and QB.

3. We don't have a 4th round pick in a draft where you can get a WR, DB or TE in the 4th that would go in the 2nd or 3rd in most drafts.

 

I guess thats the Bills way..."Hey, we only 3 picks in the first 4 rounds...so lets use one on the weakest part of this draft at a position that wasn't our biggest problem while ignoring BETTER prospects at BIGGER positions of need". #brilliance

[FireChan]

Bottom line is this:

 

This could not be a worse year for the Bills to target a QB in the draft for a number of reasons:

 

1. We have a lot of holes to fill, and this draft is LOADED with talent in a lot of areas like S, CB, WR, TE, and LB and is already being called one of the richest and deepest drafts in a long time.

2. The 2 weakest parts of this draft are OT and QB.

3. We don't have a 4th round pick in a draft where you can get a WR, DB or TE in the 4th that would go in the 2nd or 3rd in most drafts.

 

I guess thats the Bills way..."Hey, we only 3 picks in the first 4 rounds...so lets use one on the weakest part of this draft at a position that wasn't our biggest problem while ignoring BETTER prospects at BIGGER positions of need". #brilliance

Drafting for need is how you end up with a ****ty draft.

[BillsFan17]

 

To answer your questions:

 

1. He has 30 INT's in his last 2 college seasons (which is like a season and a half in the NFL) where the talent is lower, the schemes are simpler.

2. People need to remember that just because a pass "completes" doesn't mean it was a good or accurate throw. He has benefited from the both the scheme and talent at WR as well which helps bolster accuracy. Even in the Championship game he made some inaccurate throws at the end of the game that his WR's made insane catches to complete to bail him out where if they don't, they lose that game. He's not the least accurate QB by any means, but there are reasons why his accuracy is questionable at the next level.

Your current NFL MVP had 37 in his last two years at BU. Not for nothing having a 4-2 ratio in the two games against Ohio State and Albama whom have NFL caliber secondaries. NEither of the two INTs coming against Bama, on the biggest stage, executtin two beautiful drives.

 

Almost every QB worth their weight will be bailed out by their WR. Antonio Brown, ODB, Julio Jones, etc... all have bailed out their QB. It's one of the things that helps seperate them from their peers.

 

The point is, these guys are willing to allow their playmaker to make a play on the ball.

 

Not for nothing we drafted a WR forth overall and paid Clay handsomely. Wouldnt you rather see those guys be given a chance to make a play oppose to a short check down? The type of play that looks good on the state sheet and yet doesn't bet first downs or utilize the talent we have tried to accrue.

 

And believe me I am not saying he's without fault. I also acknowledge that not every pass is an accurate one, but in that regard not every INT is a QBS fault. Bad routes, play call, tipped passes, etc..

[JTO]

Much rather draft Kelly. He looks really good and may be this years Dak.

[jeffismagic]

Much rather draft Kelly. He looks really good and may be this years Dak.

I want Mahomes and Kelly. Kelly can be had for a late round pick.

[Chicken Boo]

I haven't watched a lot of college football(outside of a few games I bet on during the season, I've watched none.)

 

From what I've heard about Watson is that he's an all time great college QB, but his game won't translate well to the NFL. He doesn't make enough throws from the pocket, lacks accuracy too often, etc.

He dominated the best college defense in football in consecutive seasons on the biggest stage the college game has to offer.

 

Deshaun is the best QB in this draft. I'm really not sure why people are trying so hard to NOT believe their own eyes.

[Alphadawg7]

Drafting for need is how you end up with a ****ty draft.

 

Exactly...so why create a need by cutting Taylor just to HAVE to draft for need at one of the weak positions in what is an insanely talented and deep draft everywhere else?

 

If we keep Taylor, then we can take the best player available, which could even be a QB if that were the case (which lets be honest, no QB in this draft will the BPA on any board at the 10th pick).

 

But if we CUT Taylor, now you are MAKING us draft on NEED and not take the BEST prospect available. I mean you are literally making my point for me.

[BillsFan17]

 

Exactly...so why create a need by cutting Taylor just to HAVE to draft for need at one of the weak positions in what is an insanely talented and deep draft everywhere else?

 

If we keep Taylor, then we can take the best player available, which could even be a QB if that were the case (which lets be honest, no QB in this draft will the BPA on any board at the 10th pick).

 

But if we CUT Taylor, now you are MAKING us draft on NEED and not take the BEST prospect available. I mean you are literally making my point for me.

You could cut Taylor and roll with Cardale. Might not sound ideal, but if we are bad enough and have a shot at Darnold or Rosen or Falk.

 

Heck, best case scenerio, Jones ends up being the answer.

 

All in all Taylor is not taking this team to the post season.