TD admits another error

[Mickey]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD. His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement. That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year. Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success? We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year. We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee. Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him. Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out. Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick. I sure hope he is right on this move.

[stevestojan]

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

 

Way to play down two of the best picks in recent draft history...

[Steven in MD]

Way to play down two of the best picks in recent draft history...

241310[/snapback]

I love how one season of play by WM and LE makes them the best picks in recent draft history. As was stated, maybe TD set the bar low with some poor drafts that it was easy to have better picks in recent draft history.

[todd]

I love how one season of play by WM and LE makes them the best picks in recent draft history.  As was stated, maybe TD set the bar low with some poor drafts that it was easy to have better picks in recent draft history.

241318[/snapback]

 

Ah, Steven, you always seem to come from under your rock whenever the opportunity to criticize the current administration arises. The fact remains that TD has done a stupendous job here in Buffalo. I challenge you to find someone who has done better given the shape this team was in when Butler left.

[Steven in MD]

Ah, Steven, you always seem to come from under your rock whenever the opportunity to criticize the current administration arises. The fact remains that TD has done a stupendous job here in Buffalo. I challenge you to find someone who has done better given the shape this team was in when Butler left.

241325[/snapback]

Honestly, I am more critical of people who have annoited WM and LE superstars after just one season. I think TD has done a great job getting us here, but the proof is in the pudding. The Bills have to make the playoffs this season, otherwise I believe TD should be held accountable.

[SuperBills12]

otherwise I believe TD should be held accountable.

 

to a certain degree, but last time I checked TD doesn't strap on a helmet

[todd]

Honestly, I am more critical of people who have annoited WM and LE superstars after just one season. 

 

Agreed. LE looked good as a rookie, and WM looked phenominal in his first year. We'll see what happens.

 

I think TD has done a great job getting us here, but the proof is in the pudding.  The Bills have to make the playoffs this season, otherwise I believe TD should be held accountable.

 

 

He sure should. I'm not sure I like a starter who has only thrown 5 passes in the NFL, but I expect nothing less than the playoffs. Period.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success?  We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year.  We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee.  Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him.  Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

 

And we led the league in takeaways, have had a top 5 defense for 4 years and have the top special teams unit in the league. Dumbest post I have read in a while.

[Ray]

TD has assembled a lousy team and lousy defense. Milloy, Adams, Williams, Spikes, Fletcher all suck. Moulds, McGahee, Evans are lousy as well. How come we are the only team in the NFL to have a different QB every few years. I mean the NFL is full of teams with McNabb and Brady as their starters.

Also, why would TD get Bledsoe in '02 when we could have just kept that awesome QB we had when we went 3-13. Yes our QB options were Bledsoe, RJ, a rookie (and none of them from that class have done anything), or Jeff Blake. The obvious choice was certainly not Bledsoe.

[stevestojan]

TD has assembled a lousy team and lousy defense.  Milloy, Adams, Williams, Spikes, Fletcher all suck.  Moulds, McGahee, Evans are lousy as well.  How come we are the only team in the NFL to have a different QB every few years.  I mean the NFL is full of teams with McNabb and Brady as their starters.

Also, why would TD get Bledsoe in '02 when we could have just kept that awesome QB we had when we went 3-13.  Yes our QB options were Bledsoe, RJ, a rookie (and none of them from that class have done anything), or Jeff Blake.  The obvious choice was certainly not Bledsoe.

241438[/snapback]

 

[Nervous Guy]

admitting you made a mistake is wrong and a bad thing? yeah....that's what I try to instill in my kids...never admit you are wrong, be stubborn, pigheaded, make excuses, whatever, but never admit a mistake or try to learn and correct the mistakes you made.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

It doesn't matter what DB did or what our record was last year, because the team was at home watching the playoffs once again. The Bills spent a ton to get this raw QB out of Tulane and I don't care if he loses his limb in a car wreck, when you spend that much on a kid you are obligated to give him a shot to trip all over himself and fail miserably. Especially after the team embarrassed themselves in a game the could have put them in the playoffs. I don't know how this is going to work out, but JP needs to be given his shot now because in this Free agent era of the NFL, there is no real time to develop, and if he fails then another guy is going to have to be brought in right behind him. However, I do think that JP will be ok this year, because, as was stated earlier, this offense revolves around WM this year.

[Ramius]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success?  We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year.  We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee.  Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him.  Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

 

hey jackass, we didnt give up a first rounder to get JP...do the math...

 

2 first rounders in 2004 + 0 first rounders in 2005 = 2 first round picks in 2 years, how is that any different than a normal draft...oh yah it isnt...

 

we gave up a 2nd and a 5th to get losman, those are picks we will never have...

[Steven in MD]

Agreed. LE looked good as a rookie, and WM looked phenominal in his first year. We'll see what happens.

He sure should. I'm not sure I like a starter who has only thrown 5 passes in the NFL, but I expect nothing less than the playoffs. Period.

241342[/snapback]

Todd...today is a hugh day in TSW history...we AGREE

[DC Tom]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success?  We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year.  We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee.  Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him.  Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

 

Personally, I think a better judgement of the "wrongness" of picking up Bledsoe would be asking: were there any better options at the time? And that's beyond the obvious point that your post implies that drafting Losman was done with the specific intent of cutting Bledsoe this off-season...which is a good bit of reverse justification, that something happened ten months ago because of something else happening now that you (and I'd wager TD, considering his restructuring of Bledsoe's contract) didn't forsee ten months ago.

 

Bottom line: I think that was a pretty friggin' stupid post you made.

[Bill from NYC]

admitting you made a mistake is wrong and a bad thing?  yeah....that's what I try to instill in my kids...never admit you are wrong, be stubborn, pigheaded, make excuses, whatever, but never admit a mistake or try to learn and correct the mistakes you made.

241462[/snapback]

 

NG, your point is very well taken. I think what Mickey was doing was reacting to the part line glee on the board about TD releasing Drew.

Some posters hate Drew so much that they would probably love to throw throw their arms around TD and give him wet kisses for cutting their arch enemy.

Imo, Mickey is right. I dont think that he said TD is a bad GM. He is not and has done very well with free agency. The draft is another matter. MW will have a 9.17 million dollar cap figure next year. Sorry, that is NOT good.

[Bill from NYC]

hey jackass, we didnt give up a first rounder to get JP...do the math...

 

2 first rounders in 2004 + 0 first rounders in 2005 = 2 first round picks in 2 years, how is that any different than a normal draft...oh yah it isnt...

 

we gave up a 2nd and a 5th to get losman, those are picks we will never have...

241473[/snapback]

 

And we gave up what turned out to be a 20th pick for #27, right? That counts too.

Some teams in a draft might have to throw in a 2nd or 3rd to move 7 spots.

TB had to cough up a 2nd to the Bills to move up 7 spots.

[26CornerBlitz]

And we gave up what turned out to be a 20th pick for #27, right? That counts too.

Some teams in a draft might have to throw in a 2nd or 3rd to move 7 spots.

TB had to cough up a 2nd to the Bills to move up 7 spots.

241488[/snapback]

 

#22 in 04 draft for # 20 in 05..pretty close.

[BillsNYC]

Think TD will lash out at the reporters again like he did with GW??

[2003Contenders]

Before I get started, let me reinforce that I am not a Bledsoe apologist -- nor do I subscribe to the theory that the organization is always right. With that said, I will say that I agree with this move 100%, because I think it is time to move on.

 

Like Bledsoe or not, if you are calling the trade that TD made to acquire him "an error", then you really don't know much about the game of football.

 

Even if Bledsoe admittedly didn't do everything for us that I had hoped he would, his acquisition achieved all of the following:

 

1. Provided instant credibility in a way that drafting a first round QB never could have. Let's not forget that we picked 4th in the 2002 draft for a reason... We were a horrible 3-13 the year before. Recall that Joey Harrington was selected one pick ahead of us that year. Now there is talk that the Lions' patience is wearing thin with him. They still do not know whether or not he is the answer, while we've decided to move on without Drew. With a veteran you're more prone to make these kinds of determinations than you are with a young player that you keep HOPING will get better. The Lions (with Harrington) nor the Texans (with Carr, who finally came on last season) invested high picks on QBs that year, and neither team has finished as high as 8-8 since. The Bills were 8-8 or better 2 out of the 3 years Bledsoe was here.

 

2. Through the first half of the 2002 season, Drew was arguably the MVP of the NFL. Let's not forget that he crushed many of our team's single-season passing records. Look at what happened with attendence.

 

3. The success of the passing game inflated the value of Peerless Price. If that doesn't happen, I can guarantee you that Peerless still leaves for the highest bidder -- and we have no leverage (or logical reason) for using the Franchise Tag to secure that 1st round pick. You could even argue that we traded our #14 pick and Peerless for Drew and the #21 pick. I think even Drew bashers would make that deal (especially back in 2002) every time.

 

4. The successful shift from 3-13 in 2001 to 8-8 in 2002 identified us as a team on the verge. Surely that is what attracted such important free agents as Takeo, Sam Adams, Lawyer Milloy, etc. I find it highly unlikely that all of these guys come here if Drew doesn't have that magical 2002 season.

 

I could go on talking about Drew also being a good guy in the community and all that, but that dilludes my point, which is that we reaped enough benefits from having Drew on the team, that it was certainly worth the (then) future middle-of-the-first-round draft pick that TD gave up for him.

[Kelly the Dog]

One could easily argue that getting Bledsoe got us McGahee, too. Without DB that first year, it is highly likely that PP doesn't get 90 catches and 1000 yards and there is zero chance of trading him for a #1 after franchising him. Which, of course, turned out to be McGahee. We also would very likely not been able to get guys like Spikes and Sam Adams and Milloy and Vincent, etc. Those guys were convinced that we had one of the better rosters in the league. Whether we played up to that on the field is quite arguable. What is not, IMO, is having RJ or Jeff Blake or a nobody rookie at QB and those guys saying, "Yeah, the Bills are on the cusp of greatness".

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I think a fuller and thus more accurate summary of your draft descriptions is as follows:

 

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success? 

 

241308[/snapback]

 

I certainly think the Bledsoe acquisition on whole is one of a failed choice. However, it was not a total failure in all individual aspects or years of his production even though the bottom line in total is that he (along with the rest of the team) failed each year that they did not even make the playoffs. If one wants to make this broad general assessment then I agree. However, if you want to parse these by going into details like comparing value received for draft choices spent, then the greater accuracy of a fuller description is mandated.

 

As far as the details of the draft, my assessment is:

 

2003 1st for Bledsoe- Trade ended up being in favor of the Bills as we got value out of Bledsoe in 2002 for no cost as we gave up a future pick for this production. As our QB spot in 2002 was open as there was no way we were going to pay RJ what we agreed to pay him and AVP demonstrated he is a good back-up but not a starter Bledsoe is most accurately compared to what we suspect would have been the likely output of Jeff Blake (not even a starting quality QB in this league at his 2002 level) or Chris Chandler (also not a starting quality QB) who were the tow most likely prospect before the acqusition of Bledsoe. The improvement of our W/L from 3-13 to 8-8 that year and his qualification for the Pro Bowl all in exchange for future considerations make his acquisition hands down a plus for the Bills and this is even wothout the off field business benefits that initial excitement over Bledsoe gave.

 

However, in my mind, his horrendous production in 2003 makes his great performance the year before at best a wash for the Bills as this acquisition cost only a 1st round choice, but Bledsoe simply proved not to be good enough to stick.

 

I think we moved from the wash to the negative by making the mistake of redoing the Bledsoe deal. If we had cut him after 2003, i think the expenditure of a 1st was a quite reasonable resource to spend to get the wash of the 02/03 Bledsoe performance (this is particularly true if you want to include the actual 2003 draft occurences into the mix which is already done so probably not reasonable for assessing Bledsoe but probably is reasonable for assessing TD. TDs additional manufacture of something out of nothing as he not only turned 2003 considerations into 2002 output from Bledsoe, but turned PP into a 1st rounder we were not owed and that 1st round choice into WM is a good move by today's measures and may go down in history as one of the best GM moves in NFL history if WM stays lucky and has a career like his first season. Too early to give hosannas on the career yet, but definite kudos to TD for his manufacture of something from nothing in the immediate term.

 

2005 1st, the 2nd and 5th for JP- it seems a little farfetched to indict Bledsoe for this expenditure or TD for making it, as I think that even if Bledsoe has average production that did not justify his cut last year, the Bills needed to draft a QB of the future for this team. Did we give up too much for JP? We'll see. However, given that the top of the 2005 draft seems pretty light for QB alent, I think it was a very good move to trade the 2005 pick to take a better QB than would have been available this year to take JP last year. Again somehow linking this need to expend on the failing of Bledsoe cries out for you to assert some other option as a better choice for TD rather than investing in Bledsoe. The woulda, coulda, shoulda gets pretty complex and into fantasy land, but if you want to make the assesment and claim you are making it is where you need to go to do this credibly,

 

 

 

 

We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year. 

 

241308[/snapback]

 

This team committed to a difficult path in this regard by shifting from Cottrell's 3-4 to GW's 4-3 at the same time we were losing Wiley, TW, Hansen and even BS to cap hell, FA and retirement. This team lucked out last year by having Schobel, Denney and Kelsay as the 3 DEs when by all rights were should have at least has a player who could credibly swing between DT and DE or 4 DEs on the roster. Even if Denny had been the second coming of Bruce, we would have needed to draft a Kelsay to bring us to the minimum level necessary to play in the NFL.

 

In terms his performace, it shows a lack of fooball understanding to lambaste his play simply because he is not the pass rusher we want. Denney did demonstrate huge improvement meriting his inactive status most of his rookie year to logging a lot of starter time in his second year (he was adequate as a starter at best, but moving from being inactive to even being a solid sub would have been substantial improvement and his play was above the solid sub level his second year though it was not quite starter quality.

 

His pass rush is merely adequate, but his wing span and some atleticism has allowed him to be an important figure in our fairly successful zone blitz D where he is the strongest of our DEs against the run (compared to the motor and commitment to the rush which makes Kelsay a better pass rusher and given some strength issues which has made Schobel beatable at the point of attack). Further, Denney has shown good flexibility backing up both the LDE and RDE positions which allowed us to get away with going with only three DEs last year. Complaints about his specific failings as a player would have more weight except statisitically our D was among the most productive in the league last year and Denney was a key player in our D.

 

We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee. 

241308[/snapback]

 

Folks make a mistake in consistently viewing the 2003 selection of WM as some indictment of TH's 2002 play. TH made and deserved his 2002 seaon Pro Bowl berth (received due to an injury of one of the 3 guys above him) as he pounded out roughly 1400 yards and caught over 40 passes. The Bills took WM in 2003 who has to sit a year to recover not because Henry was so bad, but because Henry was good enough in 2002 to allow WM to sit and not be rushed back. TH's play in 2003 dropped a notch from his previous Pro Bowl level, but was outstanding that year in my book as he was still a productive playing in a horrible O run by Kevin Killdrive in which he played through the pain of a fracture part of the season. The pick (and resigning when TH bollixed his finances) worked out well enough that we had the room to pick WM and rehab him slowly and correctly.

 

Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him. 

 

241308[/snapback]

 

True as the two factors in my mind are 1: we stupidly asked him to drag along the even less experiened Pacillo under the guidance of the not-ready for primetime Vinky and Ruel and, 2: MW was quite unprofessional in dealing with the unfortunate loss of the grandma that raised him last off-season (though loss of a family member being devastating is understandable, I'm sorry but he gets the big bucks to suck it up and be professional and he wasn't).

 

Again fault TD for stupidly hiring GW (who stupidly hired his buddy Vinky and replaced him with the not experienced enough Ruel) rather than indicting MW. The reality and good news here is that MW seems to have grown up under JMac last year and a good future looks very possible for him here.

 

Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

241308[/snapback]

 

 

I think that is difficult to fault TD for passing on picking a guy many had going in the 1st round when he dropped to us in the 2nd. In fact, i think TD deserves kudos for this choice because by picking the best player available even though we had no immediate WR need with Moulds and PP:

 

1. Reed did produce at levels which justified this pick and revamped out O in 2002.

2. Though we simpletons saw no need, TD was farsighted enough to see this pick allowed us to let PP walk in FA and he was able to turn this walk into a 1st round pick which became WM.

 

I'm pissed Reed developed the droppsies. but i think it is farfetched to indict TD for making a bad move here.

 

So overall, alot ofthis is detailed nitpicking, but by couching your attack in detail you actually leave the door open for a fuller examination of the record. TD is far from perfect. but should not be given full blame when the player fails due to circumstances difficult for any GM tp forsee (MW's grandma dying and his reaction to it) or indict the GM when the player does succeed initially Reed). In addition, a player may fail intially (Denney) or at some point in his career (MW) but one should not discount improvement in his work or future hopes.

[PromoTheRobot]

You know if we scrutinized your life with a microscope, I'm sure we'd find a few glaring boners. Playing this game is retarded. You can't nitpick mistakes, you have to look at the entire body of work. The end result.

 

You forget how bad the Bills were when TD took over. They are now on the cusp of the playoffs. To act like that all happened despite TD is stupid. Also you don't know what role Ralphie plays in personel decisions. Let's wait to see how things shake out with JP. I seem to recall a lot of screaming over drafting McGahee. Probably from you. Anyone still think that was a bad move?

 

PTR

 

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success?  We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year.  We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee.  Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him.  Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

[Mickey]

hey jackass, we didnt give up a first rounder to get JP...do the math...

 

2 first rounders in 2004 + 0 first rounders in 2005 = 2 first round picks in 2 years, how is that any different than a normal draft...oh yah it isnt...

 

we gave up a 2nd and a 5th to get losman, those are picks we will never have...

241473[/snapback]

Ummm, this is going to embarass you but since you are so busy drooling insults, you kind of deserve it:

 

We used a first round pick to get JP in addition to the 2nd and 5th pick last year or did you forget that we picked him in the first round? I never said we gave up two first round picks for JP alone, I said we have spent two first round picks to try and fill the QB spot.

 

Let me say it slow: We swapped first rounders with Dallas, our 2005 for their 2004 pick, we then used that first round pick to get JP. We also used a first round pick to get Drew, remember? That means in 3 years we have used two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB that can get us into the playoffs. The result is that we are left with a young, unproven kid at the most important position on the field. One position, two picks, zero playoff games. Hurrah, what a bleeding genius.

[Mickey]

You know if we scrutinized your life with a microscope, I'm sure we'd find a few glaring boners.  Playing this game is retarded.  You can't nitpick mistakes, you have to look at the entire body of work.  The end result. 

 

You forget how bad the Bills were when TD took over.  They are now on the cusp of the playoffs.  To act like that all happened despite TD is stupid.  Also you don't know what role Ralphie plays in personel decisions.  Let's wait to see how things shake out with JP.  I seem to recall a lot of screaming over drafting McGahee.  Probably from you.  Anyone still think that was a bad move?

 

PTR

241547[/snapback]

End results? Okay, how is zero playoff games, two coaches and three OC's for results? Mediocre at best. His job is to produce a team that has a legit shot at a SB, so far, so bad. His tenure here as been a failure, not an abject, complete, glaring failure but so far a failure. I have hope that it will all come together at some point and will sing his praises when it does. For now though, he has prodcued more hope than wins.

[BuffOrange]

Of course it's the admission of a mistake. Why is that a negative?

I mean, the Bledsoe trade was a mistake. The admission that it was a mistake is not a mistake.

A lot of people (myself included) would be claiming TD is too stuborn if this move hadn't been made. I give TD credit on this one for moving forward, and doing what's best for the organization instead of desperately trying to save face.

[Sound_n_Fury]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD. 

241308[/snapback]

 

 

TD is a river boat gambler. He takes big risks...sometimes they pan out (WM), sometimes they don't (DB). In my opinion, I'd rather have that quality in a GM than a Casper Milktoast afraid to pull the trigger. At least TD doesn't dwell on his mistakes for very long, which is a strength rather than a weakness.

 

As far giving up a #1 for DB, at the time it was considered a smart move, especially after he made the Pro Bowl his first year here.

 

DB's still got some football left in him. He's just not worth $6.5 million-plus per year, particularly when he can no longer carry a team when the chips are down. Better to move on and see what JP can bring to the party.

 

It would be nice to have 20-20 foresight (rather than hindsight) on the things that didn't work out. But, sadly, it don't work that way.

[Buftex]

End results?  Okay, how is zero playoff games, two coaches and three OC's for results?  Mediocre at best.  His job is to produce a team that has a legit shot at a SB, so far, so bad.  His tenure here as been a failure, not an abject, complete, glaring failure but so far a failure.  I have hope that it will all come together at some point and will sing his praises when it does.  For now though, he has prodcued more hope than wins.

241565[/snapback]

 

 

Mickey, while I agree with most of your points, I am still willing to give TD an "incomplete" for his job thus far. I think letting Bledsoe go, as mediocre as he has been, is a very bad move, and I see it likely setting the team back for another year or two, on the field. Ultimately, it will benefit Losman, if he is indeed a player, but I think we are stepping back from very possibly being a legit threat in 2005, to another .500ish year (at best). By the time JP is likely to be hitting his stride, guys like Adams, Milloy, Fletcher and Spikes will have reached, or passed their peaks... I don't expect the GM to be right 100% of the time, but I don't expect him to take what I see as unnecessary gambles with the teams fortunes either! Going into a season with Losman as the starter, and likely some journeymen type as his back up kind of depresses me...don't get me wrong, I am not doubting JP, I haven't seen him play enough to have any idea. I have gone from chomping at the bit for next season to start, to, once again, going into a Bills season feeling sort of cautious about expecting much from them. It is early though, maybe TD has another ace up his sleeve. Like him or not, TD has made Buffalo Bills off-seasons very interesting.

[Mickey]

I think a fuller and thus more accurate summary of your draft descriptions is as follows:

I certainly think the Bledsoe acquisition on whole is one of a failed choice.  However, it was not a total failure in all individual aspects or years of his production even though the bottom line in total is that he (along with the rest of the team) failed each year that they did not even make the playoffs.  If one wants to make this broad general assessment then I agree.  However, if you want to parse these by going into details like comparing value received for draft choices spent, then the greater accuracy of a fuller description is mandated.

 

As far as the details of the draft, my assessment is:

 

2003 1st for Bledsoe- Trade ended up being in favor of the Bills as we got value out of Bledsoe in 2002 for no cost as we gave up a future pick for this production.  As our QB spot in 2002 was open as there was no way we were going to pay RJ what we agreed to pay him and AVP demonstrated he is a good back-up but not a  starter Bledsoe is most accurately compared to what we suspect would have been the likely output of Jeff Blake (not even a starting quality QB in this league at his 2002 level) or Chris Chandler (also not a starting quality QB) who were the tow most likely prospect before the acqusition of Bledsoe.  The improvement of our W/L from 3-13 to 8-8 that year and his qualification for the Pro Bowl all in exchange for future considerations make his acquisition hands down a plus for the Bills and this is even wothout the off field business benefits that initial excitement over Bledsoe gave.

 

However, in my mind, his horrendous production in 2003 makes his great performance the year before at best a wash for the Bills as this acquisition cost only a 1st round choice, but Bledsoe simply proved not to be good enough to stick.

 

I think we moved from the wash to the negative by making the mistake of redoing the Bledsoe deal.  If we had cut him after 2003, i think the expenditure of a 1st was a quite reasonable resource to spend to get the wash of the 02/03 Bledsoe performance (this is particularly true if you want to include the actual 2003 draft occurences into the mix which is already done so probably not reasonable for assessing Bledsoe but probably is reasonable for assessing TD.  TDs additional manufacture of something out of nothing as he not only turned 2003 considerations into 2002 output from Bledsoe, but turned PP into a 1st rounder we were not owed and that 1st round choice into WM is a good move by today's measures and may go down in history as one of the best GM moves in NFL history if WM stays lucky and has a career like his first season.  Too early to give hosannas on the career yet, but definite kudos to TD for his manufacture of something from nothing in the immediate term.

 

2005 1st, the 2nd and 5th for JP-  it seems a little farfetched to indict Bledsoe for this expenditure or TD for making it, as I think that even if Bledsoe has average production that did not justify his cut last year, the Bills needed to draft a QB of the future for this team.  Did we give up too much for JP?  We'll see.  However, given that the top of the 2005 draft seems pretty light for QB alent, I think it was a very good move to trade the 2005 pick to take a better QB than would have been available this year to take JP last year.  Again somehow linking this need to expend on the failing of Bledsoe cries out for you to assert some other option as a better choice for TD rather than investing in Bledsoe.  The woulda, coulda, shoulda gets pretty complex and into fantasy land, but if you want to make the assesment and claim you are making it is where you need to go to do this credibly,

This team committed to a difficult path in this regard by shifting from Cottrell's 3-4 to GW's 4-3 at the same time we were losing Wiley, TW, Hansen and even BS to cap hell, FA and retirement.  This team lucked out last year by having Schobel, Denney and Kelsay as the 3 DEs when by all rights were should have at least has a player who could credibly swing between DT and DE or 4 DEs on the roster.  Even if Denny had been the second coming of Bruce, we would have needed to draft a Kelsay to bring us to the minimum level necessary to play in the NFL. 

 

In terms his performace, it shows a lack of fooball understanding to lambaste his play simply because he is not the pass rusher we want.  Denney did demonstrate huge improvement meriting his inactive status most of his rookie year to logging a lot of starter time in his second year (he was adequate as a starter at best, but moving from being inactive to even being a solid sub would have been substantial improvement and his play was above the solid sub level his second year though it was not quite starter quality.

 

His pass rush is merely adequate, but his wing span and some atleticism has allowed him to be an important figure in our fairly successful zone blitz D where he is the strongest of our DEs against the run (compared to the motor and commitment to the rush which makes Kelsay a better pass rusher and given some strength issues which has made Schobel beatable at the point of attack).  Further, Denney has shown good flexibility backing up both the LDE and RDE positions which allowed us to get away with going with only three DEs last year.  Complaints about his specific failings as a player would have more weight except statisitically our D was among the most productive in the league last year and Denney was a key player in our D.

Folks make a mistake in consistently viewing the 2003 selection of WM as some indictment of TH's 2002 play.  TH made and deserved his 2002 seaon Pro Bowl berth (received due to an injury of one of the 3 guys above him) as he pounded out roughly 1400 yards and caught over 40 passes.  The Bills took WM in 2003 who has to sit a year to recover not because Henry was so bad, but because Henry was good enough in 2002 to allow WM to sit and not be rushed back.  TH's play in 2003 dropped a notch from his previous Pro Bowl level, but was outstanding that year in my book as he was still a productive playing in a horrible O run by Kevin Killdrive in which he played through the pain of a fracture part of the season.  The pick (and resigning when TH bollixed his finances) worked out well enough that we had the room to pick WM and rehab him slowly and correctly.

True as the two factors in my mind are 1: we stupidly asked him to drag along the even less experiened Pacillo under the guidance of the not-ready for primetime Vinky and Ruel and, 2: MW was quite unprofessional in dealing with the unfortunate loss of the grandma that raised him last off-season (though loss of a family member being devastating is understandable, I'm sorry but he gets the big bucks to suck it up and be professional and he wasn't).

 

Again fault TD for stupidly hiring GW (who stupidly hired his buddy Vinky and replaced him with the not experienced enough Ruel) rather than indicting MW. The reality and good news here is that MW seems to have grown up under JMac last year and a good future looks very possible for him here.

I think that is difficult to fault TD for passing on picking a guy many had going in the 1st round when he dropped to us in the 2nd.  In fact, i think TD deserves kudos for this choice because by picking the best player available even though we had no immediate WR need with Moulds and PP:

 

1. Reed did produce at levels which justified this pick and revamped out O in 2002.

2. Though we simpletons saw no need, TD was farsighted enough to see this pick allowed us to let PP walk in FA and he was able to turn this walk into a 1st round pick which became WM.

 

I'm pissed Reed developed the droppsies. but i think it is farfetched to indict TD for making a bad move here.

 

So overall, alot ofthis is detailed nitpicking, but by couching your attack in detail you actually leave the door open for a fuller examination of the record.  TD is far from perfect. but should not be given full blame when the player fails due to circumstances difficult for any GM tp forsee (MW's grandma dying and his reaction to it) or indict the GM when the player does succeed initially Reed).  In addition, a player may fail intially (Denney) or at some point in his career (MW) but one should not discount improvement in his work or future hopes.

241503[/snapback]

Nice analysis and I agree with much of it. I don't however think we "had room" to take WM. It is not as if we didn't need help at other positions, we did and do. Having to spend a second rounder and a first rounder to get one starter is not something a team as mediocre as this one can afford. Reed isn't getting it done on the field and that is the bottom line. Again, we spent two high picks to get one starter. Sure, lots of GM's might have done the same thing but that is my point, so far TD has been just average. We traded up to get Denney and if the coaches themselves thought he was as good as you say, there wouldn't have been much of a need for the Kelsay pick. In that case, you have 3 picks spent to fill a position that arguably, still isn't adequately filled. The trade for DB simply didn't work out and sure, lots of GM's would have made the same move in his shoes but again, I was hoping for better than that from TD.

 

The point here isn't to try and blame TD for everything or to start a fire TD movement. I think the fact is that he has had only mediocre results so far and frankly, the team'srecord and on the field preformance practically screams mediocrity. Many of his biggest decisions have not panned out from G.Williams to M.Williams. So far. My hope is that we are "on the verge" and that the decison to drop Drew won't be a step back but I have run out of patience. It is time to see it on the field, now, this year.

[Mickey]

TD is a river boat gambler.  He takes big risks...sometimes they pan out (WM), sometimes they don't (DB).  In my opinion, I'd rather have that quality in a GM than a Casper Milktoast afraid to pull the trigger.  At least TD doesn't dwell on his mistakes for very long, which is a strength rather than a weakness. 

 

As far giving up a #1 for DB, at the time it was considered a smart move, especially after he made the Pro Bowl his first year here. 

 

DB's still got some football left in him.  He's just not worth $6.5 million-plus per year, particularly when he can no longer carry a team when the chips are down.  Better to move on and see what JP can bring to the party.

 

It would be nice to have 20-20 foresight (rather than hindsight) on the things that didn't work out.  But, sadly, it don't work that way.

241590[/snapback]

Lots of GM's would have done the same, no doubt. That is why a lot of them are home on SB Sunday. The ones that aren't are the ones that made the right call in those situations either becuase they were smarter or just luckier.

[Mickey]

One could easily argue that getting Bledsoe got us McGahee, too. Without DB that first year, it is highly likely that PP doesn't get 90 catches and 1000 yards and there is zero chance of trading him for a #1 after franchising him. Which, of course, turned out to be McGahee. We also would very likely not been able to get guys like Spikes and Sam Adams and Milloy and Vincent, etc. Those guys were convinced that we had one of the better rosters in the league. Whether we played up to that on the field is quite arguable. What is not, IMO, is having RJ or Jeff Blake or a nobody rookie at QB and those guys saying, "Yeah, the Bills are on the cusp of greatness".

241501[/snapback]

Fair enough but you have to go one step further: The first that we got for PP may have got us WM but we ultimately had to spend a first to get a second reciever anyway that could have been spent on someone else. We didn't gain anything and actually spent over a season without a decent second receiver. We didn't get anything extra.

[BuckeyeBill]

Way too quick to play the blame game on TD.

 

Football is a game of steps, not jumping up to the top with one leap. Bledsoe allowed us to move from 3-13 (at best) to 9-7 (at worst). Bledsoe did part of what he came here for, to be a quarterback... a good one... when we were thinking about going full time with Van Pelt. He brought us excitement, and that excitement brought in players (Milloy, Vincient, Spikes, Adams). The other part was to take us to the playoffs, which he couldn't do and therefore meant his way out.

 

Henry is a different story. He was a good back, pro-bowler... and could have played out a decent career in Buffalo. I imagine that he would have retired after 10-12 years, have 13000 yards with a good amount of touchdowns to boot. He was a good pick.

 

McGahee however, could very well be the best runningback in this generation. I'm not saying that he is, but he COULD BE. When TD saw how good WM could be, it was too much of a temptation than to stick with what TH probably would have been. Plus, we are due to get something out of TH via trade. Probably a second round pick. Who knows what that could turn out to be.

 

Mike Williams has been disappointing, but I think that is because our offensive line coaches sucked. McNally has started to bring this diamond out of his rough. Give Williams a year or two more to prove himself to you. He could be the real deal, and worth every penny of his number 4 overall draft pick. Be patient.

 

I think that Lee Evans will be great. Perhaps superceeding the greatness of Moulds one day.

 

Josh Reed has been a bust. I just think he was a phenom in college that TD thought would transfer over, and worth a second round pick to achieve. Not a bad pick, but not a very good one either.

 

The jury is still out on Denney and Kelsay.

 

I think that TD has done an exceptional job since coming to Buffalo. If JP turns out to be the next Jim Kelly, then he may very well be the best General Manager/President we ever had. Just be patient, and see what happens.

[Mickey]

And we led the league in takeaways, have had a top 5 defense for 4 years and have the top special teams unit in the league. Dumbest post I have read in a while.

241352[/snapback]

We led the league in takeaways, yeeeha. Did we make the playoffs? Over his tenure, his entire tenure, how did we do on turnovers? Maybe your goal is to lead the league in various statistical categories, mine is to win. So far, we have not made the playoff and in fact, were so bad they fired the coach. Four years, no playoffs. That is the bottom line.

 

I am not suggesting that TD be fired. I just think that today's release of Bledsoe, a guy we spent a first round pick to get after 3 years of him as the starter is an admission that it was a mistake. I wouldn't think that would be such a hot button issue for people beyond those devoted to the notion that TD is a genius.

[BuckeyeBill]

We led the league in takeaways, yeeeha.  Did we make the playoffs?  Over his tenure, his entire tenure, how did we do on turnovers?  Maybe your goal is to lead the league in various statistical categories, mine is to win.  So far, we have not made the playoff and in fact, were so bad they fired the coach.  Four years, no playoffs.  That is the bottom line. 

 

I am not suggesting that TD be fired.  I just think that today's release of Bledsoe, a guy we spent a first round pick to get after 3 years of him as the starter is an admission that it was a mistake.  I wouldn't think that would be such a hot button issue for people beyond those devoted to the notion that TD is a genius.

241632[/snapback]

 

Hey, Mickey since you don't have patience, why don't you root for a different team. The Patriot band-wagon is big enough for complainers like you.

[Mickey]

Way too quick to play the blame game on TD. 

 

Football is a game of steps, not jumping up to the top with one leap.  Bledsoe allowed us to move from 3-13 (at best) to 9-7 (at worst).  Bledsoe did part of what he came here for, to be a quarterback... a good one... when we were thinking about going full time with Van Pelt.  He brought us excitement, and that excitement brought in players (Milloy, Vincient, Spikes, Adams).  The other part was to take us to the playoffs, which he couldn't do and therefore meant his way out.

 

Henry is a different story.  He was a good back, pro-bowler... and could have played out a decent career in Buffalo.  I imagine that he would have retired after 10-12 years, have 13000 yards with a good amount of touchdowns to boot.  He was a good pick.

 

McGahee however, could very well be the best runningback in this generation.  I'm not saying that he is, but he COULD BE.  When TD saw how good WM could be, it was too much of a temptation than to stick with what TH probably would have been.  Plus, we are due to get something out of TH via trade.  Probably a second round pick.  Who knows what that could turn out to be.

 

Mike Williams has been disappointing, but I think that is because our offensive line coaches sucked.  McNally has started to bring this diamond out of his rough.  Give Williams a year or two more to prove himself to you.  He could be the real deal, and worth every penny of his number 4 overall draft pick.  Be patient.

 

I think that Lee Evans will be great.  Perhaps superceeding the greatness of Moulds one day.

 

Josh Reed has been a bust.  I just think he was a phenom in college that TD thought would transfer over, and worth a second round pick to achieve.  Not a bad pick, but not a very good one either.

 

The jury is still out on Denney and Kelsay. 

 

I think that TD has done an exceptional job since coming to Buffalo.  If JP turns out to be the next Jim Kelly, then he may very well be the best General Manager/President we ever had.  Just be patient, and see what happens.

241628[/snapback]

I don't think 4 years qualifies as "way too quick". Not in this league. Three was good enough for GW and Drew. Besides, I am not blaming him for anything. I am just pointing out that we spent two first rounders (one to Dallas and one to NE) and more, to try and get a QB who will get us to the SB. The result will be an untested, wet behind the ears mystery QB starting in year 5 of the TD era which thus far is devoid of post season play. That doesn't mean he should be fired but it does mean we should maybe put away the "genius" hat so many want to put on his head.

[Alaska Darin]

admitting you made a mistake is wrong and a bad thing?  yeah....that's what I try to instill in my kids...never admit you are wrong, be stubborn, pigheaded, make excuses, whatever, but never admit a mistake or try to learn and correct the mistakes you made.

241462[/snapback]

Uh oh, ICE whacked NG over the head.

[JAMIEBUF12]

I can't be the only one missing the fact that the release of Bledsoe is yet another admission of error by TD.  His trade for Drew was so good we had to spend a first rounder, a second and a fifth to get his replacement.  That means we have spent two first round picks, a second and a fifth to try and get a QB and the result has been missing the playoffs for 3 years (under Drew) and a clueless kid starting at the most important position on the field next year.  Hmmmmm......does that sound like a success?  We traded up to get Denney and that worked out so well we had to take Kelsay the following year.  We took Travis in the second and that worked out so well, we had to take a flyer on McGahee.  Mike Williams has not played near to what was spent to get him.  Reed worked out so well we had to use a first rounder to replace him.

 

Yeah, McGahee ended up working out but he was only necessary because TD's other pick, Travis, wasn't working out.  Lee Evans was a good pick but we only needed him because Josh Reed was not a good pick.  I sure hope he is right on this move.

241308[/snapback]

i'd lighten up on that!its not like travis is or was a bust,travis played well for us its just that when you get a chance for a superstar like mcgahee you gotta roll the dice.as much as i was disgusted with drews play these past 2 seasons,i thought it was a good move at first,i mean the other choices were jeff blake,come on.

[Mickey]

Hey, Mickey since you don't have patience, why don't you root for a different team.  The Patriot band-wagon is big enough for complainers like you.

241644[/snapback]

4 years doesn't qualify as being patient? Any more patient and we would be indistinguishable from Bengals fans. Try their board, they are used to waiting patiently.

 

As for complainers, the board is full of them, without complainers, for or against DB for example, there wouldn't be a board. I suppose you come here just to wave your pom-poms?

 

Pointing out that Drew fumbled a snap or that Trey missed a block or whatever is no different than pointing out a trade or pick that didn't work out. Unless your position is that we can't complain about a missed field goal on a football message board or other such gaffes and blunders, your criticism of my post on that basis is inconsistent.

[Sound_n_Fury]

just luckier.

241604[/snapback]

 

Eureka!

[Mickey]

Mickey, while I agree with most of your points, I am still willing to give TD an "incomplete" for his job thus far.  I think letting Bledsoe go, as mediocre as he has been, is a very bad move, and I see it likely setting the team back for another year or two, on the field.  Ultimately, it will benefit Losman, if he is indeed a player, but I think we are stepping back from very possibly being a legit threat in 2005, to another .500ish year (at best).  By the time JP is likely to be hitting his stride, guys like Adams, Milloy, Fletcher and Spikes will have reached, or passed their peaks...  I don't expect the GM to be right 100% of the time, but I don't expect him to take what I see as unnecessary gambles with the teams fortunes either!  Going into a season with Losman as the starter, and likely some journeymen type as his back up kind of depresses me...don't get me wrong, I am not doubting JP, I haven't seen him play enough to have any idea.  I have gone from chomping at the bit for next season to start, to, once again, going into a Bills season feeling sort of cautious about expecting much from them. It is early though, maybe TD has another ace up his sleeve. Like him or not, TD has made Buffalo Bills off-seasons very interesting.

241594[/snapback]

Yeah, it still might all work out for TD and the team. He did a nice job on the defense but it wan't exactly in a shambles when he arrived. The offense was and up until the run at the end of last year, it hasn't improved much. If they had, Drew would still be here. It did not and TD knows it which is why he is making the move to JP. I think "Incomplete" is a fair grade. By now though, I was hoping for something better than that from a "genius". Seriously, I am no TD basher but by the same token, I don't see him as an untouchable genius. So far he has had mediocre results and he is running out of time to do better. Ironically, Ralph, the team, the GM and NFL football in Buffalo NY may all be running out of time.