2020 Our Year For Sure Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If we make the playoffs, McCoy was worth it. Even if it puts us in a hole 2-3 years from now, wouldn't matter to me. gotta wash off the 15-year stink, and anything that helps us do that is a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 All I can tell you guys is that I wouldn't get too hardened in your positions because I'm rarely wrong. It's a long, long list. The LIKELIHOOD is that the McCoy deal will end very badly....far short of it's length......and you guys will be left looking crazy on TSW rationalizing how it was worth $28M-$30M for two years of what he ends up doing. I HOPE I am wrong.......I love watching him play well and the Bills subsequently win......there are no trophies for being right on TSW......but step back for a moment and tell me this......if you were told last spring that McCoy would be 14th in the NFL in rushing after 9 games would you be happy with that? Because that's the way it goes with high mileage backs......one minute they look like they still got it......then something happens and in the end the results aren't there. Bills fans saw it with Thurman Thomas. Once he went into decline we were always told he was thisclose to being back to his old self. Then he'd show flashes......and then it would be gone again. First of all, opinions are like a$$holes. Second, it would be much more palatable to engage in a football discussion with you and your ilk if you didn't relish every stinking opportunity to throw something in someone's face about how prescient you are/were. That reeks of insecurity. On the topic of McCoy, if the Bills get "elite" play (I won't delve into the "top 3" nonsense) out of McCoy for the remainder of this season and next, and return to the playoffs, most Bills fans would consider the trade a success. Since regaining his health McCoy has been playing lights out (apologies to Mr. Merriman). I'm not certain I understand the "he needs to be motivated" comment but whatever. Clearly he and Kelly clashed. This season the Bills are better off with McCoy and Karlos in their backfield than they would have been with Spiller and Karlos, even with #TheLegend occasionally suiting up on defense. Cheers and Go Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ouch! I have been trying for years to forget about that disastrous pick! I think that today, RTs are becoming more important week by week. That said, in those days for a RT to be selected at #4, I would want him to be as good as Erik Williams (imo the best RT ever) or Bob Brown. Did they project Williams to LT at some point. Probably but he weighed at least 350 and had a bad ankle. Unbelievable. I know how you don't care as much as I do about 1st round picks but choices like that actually cripple a franchise. Biil, Good to see you back here posting merrily as ever... To be fair, this was a pretty good pick as Williams was dominating on the right side in the first few years of his career. And then something happened in his family (I think his grand mother passed away) and he could never put himself together to be that dominating player. I think the pick was well justified and it almost pulled off. There were no known "Danger" signs with that pick. On the other hand the Maybin pick was written bust all over. He had one good season playing against crummy competition and he also had one good move. He was not a well rounded player. That was a bad pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Biil, Good to see you back here posting merrily as ever... To be fair, this was a pretty good pick as Williams was dominating on the right side in the first few years of his career. And then something happened in his family (I think his grand mother passed away) and he could never put himself together to be that dominating player. I think the pick was well justified and it almost pulled off. There were no known "Danger" signs with that pick. On the other hand the Maybin pick was written bust all over. He had one good season playing against crummy competition and he also had one good move. He was not a well rounded player. That was a bad pick Thanks so much for the kind words. Aside from one game against Arizona (which I attended and he was given a game ball), I would not call him dominant. Imo he was a lot closer to mediocre. I disagree about the "danger signs" as well. He had a chronic ankle injury in college, and an obvious weight problem. I never believe the listed weights and if he was 375 it wouldn't surprise me. Since the MW selection, I am leery of guys like him in the draft. In college, his brute strength enabled him to just beat people up to the point of utter dominance. In the pros it very rarely works like that. One must be able to move and play football. Remember Charles Johnson? To this day I can't name 5 guys as fast as him. The kid was always wide open at MSU. I thought he would be a Hall of Fame player, but I thought wrong. He had a narrow frame (another flag imo) and was beaten within an inch of his life in the NFL, but I digress. My signature on TSW back then was "Draft McKinnie." They should have listened. Thanks again. PS: I always judge a draft by who a team passes on as much as by who they select. The Maybin pick was off the charts stupid no doubt but by my standards, the Whitner pick was really just as dumb. Edited November 18, 2015 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 PS: I always judge a draft by who a team passes on as much as by who they select. The Maybin pick was off the charts stupid no doubt but by my standards, the Whitner pick was really just as dumb. We know you love to hate those DB picks the most Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) We know you love to hate those DB picks the most Bill No doubt, but there is more to consider..... Did you see the post about Cousins? I will bet you that Gilmore will cost within 2 million per season of what Cousins makes. Even if we were talking about Mel Blount, he can only cover one receiver and teams often play 4 or 5 wide. I see a new trend coming today. Teams such as the Dolphins, Bears, and perhaps the Redskins, will be hamstrung by having to pay HUGE dollars to QBs who are "good," but never really won anything. Even Seattle who did win is going to pay through the nose for Wilson! Now, a corner can have the same effect. I would not want to pay Revis 16 mil. per year. Sammy got the key first down against him, no? Darby was a GREAT pick in round 2! Off the charts wonderful selection. He doesn't kill your cap either. I have arrived at the conclusion that it is good to draft corners, but imo (and this is just that, imo), it is still dumb for an NFL franchise to squander its best resources on defensive backs. Edited November 18, 2015 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 No doubt, but there is more to consider..... Did you see the post about Cousins? I will bet you that Gilmore will cost within 2 million per season of what Cousins makes. Even if we were talking about Mel Blount, he can only cover one receiver and teams often play 4 or 5 wide. I see a new trend coming today. Teams such as the Dolphins, Bears, and perhaps the Redskins, will be hamstrung by having to pay HUGE dollars to QBs who are "good," but never really won anything. Even Seattle who did win is going to pay through the nose for Wilson! Now, a corner can have the same effect. I would not want to pay Revis 16 mil. per year. Sammy got the key first down against him, no? Darby was a GREAT pick in round 2! Off the charts wonderful selection. He doesn't kill your cap either. I have arrived at the conclusion that it is good to draft corners, but imo (and this is just that, imo), it is still dumb for an NFL franchise to squander its best resources on defensive backs. I want to keep Gilmore but I wouldn't go to $15m a year for him. I do think you need top corners to be successful in this league though and you especially need them to run Rex's defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks so much for the kind words. Aside from one game against Arizona (which I attended and he was given a game ball), I would not call him dominant. Imo he was a lot closer to mediocre. I disagree about the "danger signs" as well. He had a chronic ankle injury in college, and an obvious weight problem. I never believe the listed weights and if he was 375 it wouldn't surprise me. Since the MW selection, I am leery of guys like him in the draft. In college, his brute strength enabled him to just beat people up to the point of utter dominance. In the pros it very rarely works like that. One must be able to move and play football. Remember Charles Johnson? To this day I can't name 5 guys as fast as him. The kid was always wide open at MSU. I thought he would be a Hall of Fame player, but I thought wrong. He had a narrow frame (another flag imo) and was beaten within an inch of his life in the NFL, but I digress. My signature on TSW back then was "Draft McKinnie." They should have listened. Thanks again. PS: I always judge a draft by who a team passes on as much as by who they select. The Maybin pick was off the charts stupid no doubt but by my standards, the Whitner pick was really just as dumb. Greg Robinson may be suffering a similar fate. Big frame, good feet, but something is just not there... Then again, I watched video of Eric Fisher at the Senior Bowl practices and was convinced he'd become an All Pro LT, and he can barely cut it as a right tackle. He's terrible. As for McKinnie - he's similar to Seantral in terms of pedigree, measurables and talent. And also similar in terms of being a knucklehead who loses focus during games. McKinnie was a very frustrating player for the Vikings - he'd be dominant 90% of the time, and then 10% of the time would have horrible mental lapses or succumb to pure laziness, resulting in negative plays. Not saying he wasn't the safer pick - he certainly was - but he was a bit of a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 McCoy is definitely playing at an elite level since getting healthy, and even when he was hurt he was playing at a "good" level. I'll take a couple years of elite, and a couple years of good. By the time he's done, the cap will be insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 As for McKinnie - he's similar to Seantral in terms of pedigree, measurables and talent. And also similar in terms of being a knucklehead who loses focus during games. McKinnie was a very frustrating player for the Vikings - he'd be dominant 90% of the time, and then 10% of the time would have horrible mental lapses or succumb to pure laziness, resulting in negative plays. Not saying he wasn't the safer pick - he certainly was - but he was a bit of a dog. They are similar, but McKinnie had a higher ceiling. I got the feeling that he never really cared. He was a guy who imo could have played at an Orlando Pace level if he worked hard, and Pace was my favorite LT. Teams signed McKinnie even after he was old and he was still decent. That is how gifted he was, or so I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 PS: I always judge a draft by who a team passes on as much as by who they select. The Maybin pick was off the charts stupid no doubt but by my standards, the Whitner pick was really just as dumb. Bill, I guess you like the hindsight being 20-20!!!... Whitner pick was deemed necessary by the cover-2 scheme that Dick Jauron wanted to bring to Buffalo. Whitner actually has had a decent career in Buffalo, SF and Cleveland. I think we have had worse misses than Dante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I took a look at the top 40 RBs in terms of attempts per game, then sorted y/a, and what do you know, two of our guys in the top 10, nice! Also, lots of old dudes in there. Name Tm Age Y/A Karlos Williams BUF 22 6.20 Ryan Mathews PHI 28 5.70 Todd Gurley STL 21 5.50 Giovani Bernard CIN 24 5.50 Jamaal Charles KAN 29 5.10 DeAngelo Williams PIT 32 5.00 Adrian Peterson MIN 30 4.90 Le'Veon Bell PIT 23 4.90 Lamar Miller MIA 24 4.90 LeSean McCoy BUF 27 4.70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Bill, I guess you like the hindsight being 20-20!!!... Whitner pick was deemed necessary by the cover-2 scheme that Dick Jauron wanted to bring to Buffalo. Whitner actually has had a decent career in Buffalo, SF and Cleveland. I think we have had worse misses than Dante.We did, but he cost the team approx. 37 million real cap dollars and he simply did NOT win football games for the team. We passed on countless top players and even turned down numerous offers to trade down (I heard Marv say it). That draft made this team a loser for many, many years. Edited November 18, 2015 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) I took a look at the top 40 RBs in terms of attempts per game, then sorted y/a, and what do you know, two of our guys in the top 10, nice! Also, lots of old dudes in there. Name Tm Age Y/A Karlos Williams BUF 22 6.20 Ryan Mathews PHI 28 5.70 Todd Gurley STL 21 5.50 Giovani Bernard CIN 24 5.50 Jamaal Charles KAN 29 5.10 DeAngelo Williams PIT 32 5.00 Adrian Peterson MIN 30 4.90 Le'Veon Bell PIT 23 4.90 Lamar Miller MIA 24 4.90 LeSean McCoy BUF 27 4.70 How many carries per game? I find this stat to be misleading because typically with more carries these 6 ypc #'s drop a point or more. 5 carries @ 2 ypc with one 20 yard run = 5 ypc Edited November 19, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 How many carries per game? I find this stat to be misleading because typically with more carries these 6 ypc #'s drop a point or more. 5 carries @ 2 ypc with one 20 yard run = 5 ypc I pulled the stats from pro football reference, feel free to check them out. Like I said, I grabbed the top 40 rbs by carries per game, then sorted by ypa, to cut down on the sort of thing you're concerned about. Fact is, our RBs are productive, even Shady with his bum hammy for the first few games of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) I pulled the stats from pro football reference, feel free to check them out. Like I said, I grabbed the top 40 rbs by carries per game, then sorted by ypa, to cut down on the sort of thing you're concerned about. Fact is, our RBs are productive, even Shady with his bum hammy for the first few games of the season. By no means am I diminishing Karlos' efforts. He is making history. Love the yardage for Shady also as the featured back getting 112 ypg in the last 2. fwiw I just noticed that PFR has seeding by each team. Edited November 19, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 By no means am I diminishing Karlos' efforts. He is making history. Love the yardage for Shady also as the featured back getting 112 ypg in the last 2. fwiw I just noticed that PFR has seeding by each team. Shady's YPC is up 0.5 from last year. Where does that fit on the RB-decline graph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Shady's YPC is up 0.5 from last year. Where does that fit on the RB-decline graph? Well ,he is the smartest guy in the room after all and has a long history of being right ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) Shady's YPC is up 0.5 from last year. Where does that fit on the RB-decline graph? featured back to featured back. I guess I am missing your query. Getting about 20 caries a game is a good indicator of a players true average over 5 to 10 carries a game. See the Giants game stats 18 carries for 40 yards 2.2 ypc compared to when Karlos crushed the Fins twice with great games 12 for 110 and 9 for 110 As stated I am loving it. just keeping it real. Edited November 19, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Ryan Matthews is hurt again so he stinks. He can't stay on the field. In fact, if that counts as how good you are, Adrian Peterson really isn't that good. We will see how he finishes this year, but the last four years he has only averaged 1100 yards a season even with that 2000 yard outlier. One year he only had 75 yards! He can't stay on the field either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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