Coach Tuesday Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Considering the list of people following this thread that will go outside their knowledge zone to challenge anything I say........and the fact that nobody is stepping up to support your position.......I don't think that branch will hold your weight. AP is a CONSIDERABLY better and more valuable RB than Shady. No doubt about it. So now you're leaving it up to the TBD masses? You should know better than that! Again, no way to prove it - but if you were to survey NFL GMs I have very little doubt that factoring in age and injury history, McCoy would be ranked ahead of AP in terms of trade value. I stand by it, you can ridicule me for it as much as often as it makes you feel good. AP also makes $6M more per year than McCoy! And at the time of the trade the spread was even greater, I believe. Edited November 15, 2015 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 It's an issue because Badol has been saying that the Bills could've gotten a much better deal for McCoy than what they gave up. And my point is, no, in terms of value, McCoy is one of the highest-valued RBs in the league. And also, there were numerous reports that AP was available this past offseason, but there were no serious takers. No serious takers meaning none willing to give up what the Vikings were asking. That may have been a lot, and even AP isn't worth it. He wasn't getting traded for Kiki Alonso , that's for sure. Heck , even Philly fans were like " we got WHO for McCoy ?" The bigger issue with AP would be that he would want to go to a winner, so even if the Bills did call, they wouldn't be deemed serious because AP would refuse. Also he would likely only be comfortable in the south, where his misdeeds would be considered commonplace and no big deal. Not quite the same in the liberal Northeast. So an AP trade just wasn't happening for a bunch if reasons. On the other hand, trading an injured LB that missed a whole season in which the Defense was excellent made it a no - brainer to obtain McCoy. The Bills gave up a guy they didn't even miss. Doesn't seem like much to argue about there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Meh I think maybe more in the Matt Forte category than those guys. Maybe behind Forte and a bit ahead of Frank Gore? Those other guys are workhorses and chain movers....mostly punishing backs too....... and the knock on Lesean is that he kills drives running horizontally looking for big plays. That's why he got traded. That is NOT why he got traded. He got traded because he didn't buy into Chip Kelly's system / Chip Kelly doesn't like star players. Depending on whose narrative you wish to believe. Particularly because he isn't great as a pass catcher or great at producing TD's. 6 years into his career Shady has 46 TDs. 6 years into his career Faulk had 49 TDs. 6 years into his career Shady has 318 catches. 6 years into his career Faulk had 384 catches. Saying McCoy isn't great at producing TDs is nonsense. Saying Shady isn't great catching the ball is equally as ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 So now you're leaving it up to the TBD masses? You should know better than that! Again, no way to prove it - but if you were to survey NFL GMs I have very little doubt that factoring in age and injury history, McCoy would be ranked ahead of AP in terms of trade value. I stand by it, you can ridicule me for it as much as often as it makes you feel good. AP also makes $6M more per year than McCoy! And at the time of the trade the spread was even greater, I believe. Trade value is a really poor basis for your argument. I respect you but you are getting lost on this one. Trade value starts with young guys like Gurley, Freeman, Bell. Lamar Miller probably has more trade value. What it comes down to is that this "McCoy is a top 3 RB" narrative ignores the fact that he's not a top 3 RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Trade value is a really poor basis for your argument. I respect you but you are getting lost on this one. Trade value starts with young guys like Gurley, Freeman, Bell. Lamar Miller probably has more trade value. What it comes down to is that this "McCoy is a top 3 RB" narrative ignores the fact that he's not a top 3 RB. You're saying Lamar Miller has more trade value than McCoy, and I'm the one getting lost? If you were to survey NFL GMs about how they would rank RBs if they had to build a team from scratch, there is no question in my mind Shady is top 5, and probably top 3. We're not talking about which RB you'd pick to win one game. We're talking about building a team. McCoy would go ahead of AP on most boards not because of talent (AP is more talented) but because of age. And I agree with you that RBs generally are a dime a dozen, and if I'm building a team I don't trade important assets for any running back. But trading a linebacker who didn't even play for the team last year for Shady McCoy is not a bad deal. Edited November 15, 2015 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 So the Eagles are spending almost $12M/year at the RB position to equal Shady's production? Not to mention the $3M they ate in dead money trading him? And they're both older and should decline sooner? Sounds like value to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) I don't think McCoy is a top 3 back - AP and Bell are the undisputed #1 and #2 but he is one of the 7 or 8 backs in this league who are special. Everyone else is largely in the much of a muchness category but there is a group to whom "dime a dozen" does not apply and Shady is one of them. That is why the trade remains to me a no brainer. Edited November 15, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 That is NOT why he got traded. He got traded because he didn't buy into Chip Kelly's system / Chip Kelly doesn't like star players. Depending on whose narrative you wish to believe. 6 years into his career Shady has 46 TDs. 6 years into his career Faulk had 49 TDs. 6 years into his career Shady has 318 catches. 6 years into his career Faulk had 384 catches. Saying McCoy isn't great at producing TDs is nonsense. Saying Shady isn't great catching the ball is equally as ridiculous. But then Faulk scored 26 TD in year 7 alone. You guys are a trip with your cherry picking arguments. Being "great" at catching the ball is Matt Forte. He caught 100 passes last year. That's great. McCoy is solid.....definitely not great....in the passing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 But then Faulk scored 26 TD in year 7 alone. Yeah, in year two of a new system with a new team. Wonder what will happen with Shady? I picked Faulk for a reason -- because he's not only great, he's also a guy who went from one system to another at the same time in their career. Faulk was a great RB in IND who became a HOFer in St. Louis past the age of 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 You're saying Lamar Miller has more trade value than McCoy, and I'm the one getting lost? If you were to survey NFL GMs about how they would rank RBs if they had to build a team from scratch, there is no question in my mind Shady is top 5, and probably top 3. We're not talking about which RB you'd pick to win one game. We're talking about building a team. McCoy would go ahead of AP on most boards not because of talent (AP is more talented) but because of age. And I agree with you that RBs generally are a dime a dozen, and if I'm building a team I don't trade important assets for any running back. But trading a linebacker who didn't even play for the team last year for Shady McCoy is not a bad deal. Of course.....McCoy has a bad contract and he's 27, coming off 2 of past 3 years where his ypc was league average and he's been nicked up. Miller is low mileage and cheap. Do you not understand how most of the league views RB's? McCoy might have NO trade value at all with that contract. Karlos......with his aching head.....has more trade value than McCoy. A lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 And I agree with you that RBs generally are a dime a dozen, and if I'm building a team I don't trade important assets for any running back. But trading a linebacker who didn't even play for the team last year for Shady McCoy is not a bad deal. This is where BADOL's argument loses steam. No one is denying RBs -- as a whole -- have become devalued in the NFL. But that doesn't mean they're worthless. And elite backs? They are not a dime a dozen by definition. Top three or top five it doesn't matter how you define it, Shady is one of the few ELITE backs in the NFL. This is inarguable. Yet BADOL argues it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Karlos......with his aching head.....has more trade value than McCoy. A lot more. No chance. EDIT: and I will be impressed if you can find one respectable poster (i.e. no one with a name like "Dukey Bomb" or with 2Pac as their avatar) to agree that Karlos Williams has a higher trade value than McCoy... Edited November 15, 2015 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I don't think McCoy is a top 3 back - AP and Bell are the undisputed #1 and #2 but he is one of the 7 or 8 backs in this league who are special. Everyone else is largely in the much of a muchness category but there is a group to whom "dime a dozen" does not apply and Shady is one of them. That is why the trade remains to me a no brainer. Yup. Of course.....McCoy has a bad contract and he's 27, coming off 2 of past 3 years where his ypc was league average and he's been nicked up. Miller is low mileage and cheap. Do you not understand how most of the league views RB's? McCoy might have NO trade value at all with that contract. Karlos......with his aching head.....has more trade value than McCoy. A lot more. Alright, now you're just being silly to be silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I don't think McCoy is a top 3 back - AP and Bell are the undisputed #1 and #2 but he is one of the 7 or 8 backs in this league who are special. Everyone else is largely in the much of a muchness category but there is a group to whom "dime a dozen" does not apply and Shady is one of them. That is why the trade remains to me a no brainer. Yep. The trade was a no brainer because the compensation was low. A one year LB that had multiple knee injuries. It's not like the Bills gave up a high draft pick for McCoy. It was an expendable for a known productive player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Yep. The trade was a no brainer because the compensation was low. A one year LB that had multiple knee injuries. It's not like the Bills gave up a high draft pick for McCoy. It was an expendable for a known productive player. BADOL's next argument will be that they could have gotten him for less, they only traded for his negotiating rights. Which is absurd. If the Eagles cut Shady he would have NEVER come to Buffalo as a UFA. The only way to have secured his services was to trade for him. And the only way to get Shady to show up to play after the trade was to extend his deal... But let's not get lost in details like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasBillsFan1 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 The unsung hero of the NE Patriots is their Defense. They are really good. Let's not forget that the Bills had 4 stalled drives at the end of the game. They couldn't convert those third downs to burn the clock, giving Jets more and more opportunities. If the Bills play like that next Monday against NE, the outcome is inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 This is where BADOL's argument loses steam. No one is denying RBs -- as a whole -- have become devalued in the NFL. But that doesn't mean they're worthless. And elite backs? They are not a dime a dozen by definition. Top three or top five it doesn't matter how you define it, Shady is one of the few ELITE backs in the NFL. This is inarguable. Yet BADOL argues it... Actually, it IS arguable. The stats are right in front of you. He had the LOWEST yards per touch of any player in the NFL with 250 or more touches last year. Two of the last 3 years he has finished with league average, ypc. The narrative that he is a top 3 RB is drifting......but apparently there are A LOT of elite RB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Actually, it IS arguable. The stats are right in front of you. He had the LOWEST yards per touch of any player in the NFL with 250 or more touches last year. Two of the last 3 years he has finished with league average, ypc. The narrative that he is a top 3 RB is drifting......but apparently there are A LOT of elite RB's. Again, if you only go by stats you're never going to understand what I'm saying. I've seen with my own eyes -- and a lot of Bills fans have seen it now too over the past two games -- that Shady is an elite RB. He's special. He's not a dime a dozen RB, he's a RB that can single handedly win games. There aren't many of those backs in the league, there really aren't. He's just one of them. This is inarguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'd be willing to bet that if Chip could do it all over again, he'd have just kept Shady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'd be willing to bet that if Chip could do it all over again, he'd have just kept Shady. So why would there be any disillusionment? "I think of the Seattle game,'' NFL network analyst Brian Baldinger said earlier this week at the Eagles OTAs. "He had the biggest hole he saw all year. The biggest hole. He should have hit his head on the goal post. But he saw Earl Thomas coming on a dead sprint to blow him up. And he curled up and fell down. "It's a 10-point game, anybody's game. And it was a game that really swung everything in December. But I think Chip saw that. And between that, taking him off the field on third down, taking him off the field on goal line . . . [Kelly was saying] 'He's just not tough enough or what I want.' " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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