FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Without comparing him to backs, or giving any per touch info- how's one supposed to know if he's excellent or not was my entire point. It comes across as using a slanted stay to achieve a goal, and not as presenting an accurate picture that others can judge on their own. NFL.com doesn't do those categories by position, IIRC. 2011-2013: CJ - 516 att, 2738 yds, 5.3 ypa LM - 787 att, 3756 yds, 4.8 ypa This is with CJ splitting time with FJ. Admittedly, 2014, CJ did a whole lot of nothing due to injury (and even worse scheme/blocking), but again.. it's hard to argue that CJ isn't a pretty good running back. So to me, something is going on either with him, or the team, for him to not be used at all in NO. Its not like CJ is old, either. It's also with McCoy missing time due to injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Without comparing him to backs, or giving any per touch info- how's one supposed to know if he's excellent or not was my entire point. It comes across as using a slanted stay to achieve a goal, and not as presenting an accurate picture that others can judge on their own. Fine. Ask and ye shall receive. 5th in receiving yards among RB's T-3 in receiving TD's with five other players. Nobody's saying these numbers aren't. They are, however, arguing vehemently that they're not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 NFL.com doesn't do those categories by position, IIRC. It's also with McCoy missing time due to injury. It's also with CJ missing time/being hobbled multiple games. **** happens with RBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) So he was running too hard in the first half and was too winded to play in the 2nd half?Bills D would give up a million points and gailey would abandon the run game. Had him in fantasy It was maddening. Was always on pace for 30 point games. Edited September 29, 2015 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 It's also with CJ missing time/being hobbled multiple games. **** happens with RBs. What time did CJ miss in 2011 - 2013? 1 game? Vs. McCoy who missed 5 in that time? What's next, comparing Trent's 2008 campaign to Brady's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 What time did CJ miss in 2011 - 2013? 1 game? Vs. McCoy who missed 5 in that time? What's next, comparing Trent's 2008 campaign to Brady's? You're quickly jumping the shark. Again, I've said that McCoy is the better player. But at the same time CJ has been very productive when on the field, other than the last year, so to me either something is up with him, or the team. You don't average 5+ypa over the course of three seasons without talent imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) What time did CJ miss in 2011 - 2013? 1 game? Vs. McCoy who missed 5 in that time? What's next, comparing Trent's 2008 campaign to Brady's? I had promised myself that I was going to stay away from this thread after posting earlier, but your post pulled me back in -- momentarily. Your mention of 2013 -- without mentioning the fact that the guy actually tried to tough it out playing with a high ankle sprain when he should not have been trying to play at all -- amply demonstrates your bias against CJ. Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?!? Edited September 29, 2015 by Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Fine. Ask and ye shall receive. 5th in receiving yards among RB's T-3 in receiving TD's with five other players. Nobody's saying these numbers aren't. They are, however, arguing vehemently that they're not great. much thanks. I think those give a much more accurate picture. For a back that was 22nd in carries and 10th in receptions among backs (98th overall), to be in that top 5 cumulative really underscores how productive he was. his cumulative stats consistently outrank his touches in all the categories you highlighted - literally every metric of yardage and scoring had him doing more with less touches. ill be the first to say he has not consistently made the most of his opportunities, for a variety of reasons including his own faults surely -- but he has elite talent when things come together. even without them consistently coming together hes been a good player, albeit not living up to his potential. Edited September 29, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I had promised myself that I was going to stay away from this thread after posting earlier, but your post pulled me back in -- momentarily. Your mention of 2013 -- without mentioning the fact that the guy actually tried to tough it out playing with a high ankle sprain when he should not have been trying to play at all -- amply demonstrates your bias against CJ. Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?!? Because it was already mentioned, chico. Pull out, pull out! You're quickly jumping the shark. Again, I've said that McCoy is the better player. But at the same time CJ has been very productive when on the field, other than the last year, so to me either something is up with him, or the team. You don't average 5+ypa over the course of three seasons without talent imo. CJ seems to struggle to get on the field quite a bit. Couldn't beat out the old man. Can't get on the field in NO. To me, if I take a step back and look at CJ's whole career, him averaging 5+ YPA over three seasons doesn't impress me when it's one great year, and two not so great ones (and then a terrible one). It's like Stafford, yeah he had that one great year where you could say he averaged 28 TD's over 4 years, but he had 29 20 and 22 in the other three. It begins to look like an outlier, or a "everything went his way" year. Which, again, isn't nothing, Most players don't even have that year to fall back on. But when do you step back and say it was an outlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Because it was already mentioned, chico. Pull out, pull out! Just not in your criticism of 2013 and your BS comment about him only missing one game - when he actually was trying to tough it out playing with a high ankle sprain. As for pulling out . . . Chico . . . I will keep my response to myself given that this is a family friendly board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Just not in your criticism of 2013 and your BS comment about him only missing one game - when he actually was trying to tough it out playing with a high ankle sprain. As for pulling out . . . Chico . . . I will keep my response to myself given that this is a family friendly board. Stick around so we can talk about the games he took over and won for us. I'll start: Your turn! Edited September 29, 2015 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Just not in your criticism of 2013 and your BS comment about him only missing one game - when he actually was trying to tough it out playing with a high ankle sprain. As for pulling out . . . Chico . . . I will keep my response to myself given that this is a family friendly board. It was in the post I quoted. Do I have to repeat every comment I quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Because it was already mentioned, chico. Pull out, pull out! CJ seems to struggle to get on the field quite a bit. Couldn't beat out the old man. Can't get on the field in NO. To me, if I take a step back and look at CJ's whole career, him averaging 5+ YPA over three seasons doesn't impress me when it's one great year, and two not so great ones (and then a terrible one). It's like Stafford, yeah he had that one great year where you could say he averaged 28 TD's over 4 years, but he had 29 20 and 22 in the other three. It begins to look like an outlier, or a "everything went his way" year. Which, again, isn't nothing, Most players don't even have that year to fall back on. But when do you step back and say it was an outlier? 2011, 7th in YPA; 2012, T1st in YPA; 2013, 10th in YPA... so even the two 'bad' years in that set of three, put him in good company. CJ's a talented player when healthy and in the right situation. I don't see why this is controversial to state. And I don't see why it's a problem to expect him to have similar success in NO, and to be confused as to why it's not happening. I'll make this my last post on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 It was in the post I quoted. Do I have to repeat every comment I quote? Posted Today, 01:21 PM Dorkington, on 29 Sept 2015 - 1:19 PM, said: It's also with CJ missing time/being hobbled multiple games. **** happens with RBs. What time did CJ miss in 2011 - 2013? 1 game? Vs. McCoy who missed 5 in that time? What's next, comparing Trent's 2008 campaign to Brady's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 2011, 7th in YPA; 2012, T1st in YPA; 2013, 10th in YPA... so even the two 'bad' years in that set of three, put him in good company. CJ's a talented player when healthy and in the right situation. I don't see why this is controversial to state. And I don't see why it's a problem to expect him to have similar success in NO, and to be confused as to why it's not happening. I'll make this my last post on the subject. It's not a problem, I just have a conflicting opinion. No worries. He isn't a Bill anymore, so it's of no consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 CJ Spiller is a good football player with games where he can be excellent. Unfortunately he has durability issues. In the end, he wasnt worth the draft slot we used on him. That being said, he's still certainly capable of having an excellent season so he'll continue to be coveted by some NFL teams. Seems like a great guy. I always liked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 2011-2013: CJ - 516 att, 2738 yds, 5.3 ypa LM - 787 att, 3756 yds, 4.8 ypa This is with CJ splitting time with FJ. Admittedly, 2014, CJ did a whole lot of nothing due to injury (and even worse scheme/blocking), but again.. it's hard to argue that CJ isn't a pretty good running back. So to me, something is going on either with him, or the team, for him to not be used at all in NO. Its not like CJ is old, either. I think CJ is a great change of pace back, but he is a change of pace back. He's never been the primary runner for a full season. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd have to disagree that he could be the primary back and have success beyond a few games at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 When was Spiller truly a "factor?" Yeah, one freak season I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Sorry, but this is a false equivalent of the most outrageous kind. McCoy has struggled through three games. It's not even remotely hypocritical to have patience with him and not with Spiller. Why? Well, geeze, let's see, since 2010: McCoy has played in 77 games, has 6,301 rushing yards, 40 rushing TD's, 2,057 rec yards and 11 rec TD's. Spiller has played in 72 games, has 3,332 rushing yards, 12 rushing TD's, 1, 236 rec yards and 6 rec TD's. Yeah, I'd say McCoy has earned the longer leash. Why? Well, because I've been saying over and over and over and over again in this thread, unlike Spiller, he's actually DONE something in the league. You forgot a stat. Spiller - 672 carries, 205 pass targets McCoy - 1,349 carries, 338 pass targets McCoy is clearly the better RB, but the picture you painted is incomplete, and seems manipulated to show comparable attempts/targets. An argument could be made that CJ didn't deserve more carries/attempts but it still should be disclosed. That said, what is with the told ya so? the guy just had knee surgery, just came back, and had 4 total carries, and 3 targets over 2 games. They are obviously bringing him back slow. Edited September 29, 2015 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 You forgot a stat. Spiller - 672 carries, 205 pass targets McCoy - 1,349 carries, 338 pass targets McCoy is clearly the better RB, but the picture you painted is incomplete, and seems manipulated to show comparable attempts/targets. An argument could be made that CJ didn't deserve more carries/attempts but it still should be disclosed. That said, what is with the told ya so? the guy just had knee surgery, just came back, and had 4 total carries, and 3 targets over 2 games. They are obviously bringing him back slow. I'm not sure how NOT being a prolific player in the league is cause for celebration, but fine. And, okay. We'll just keep waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I'm not sure how NOT being a prolific player in the league is cause for celebration, but fine. And, okay. We'll just keep waiting. Who do you think will be President by the next time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Who do you think will be President by the next time? i dont know that the two hackett/marrone fans are the best to be leading a victory lap on anything related to offensive production Edited September 29, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Spiller is probably still learning the terminology, playbook and other players numbers. He is just coming off an injury but I don't see him being a big factor in the offense until later in the season...if at all this year. The Saints were foolish to let Jimmy Graham, Darren Sproles leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 i dont know that the two hackett/marrone fans are the best to be leading a victory lap on anything related to offensive production I have never been wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 CJ Spiller is a good football player with games where he can be excellent. Unfortunately he has durability issues. In the end, he wasnt worth the draft slot we used on him. That's the long and the short of it. It's pretty clear he wasn't psychically capable of carrying the load (20+ carries) week in and week out. And that's why there's no comparison to McCoy. As Bill said above, it was another stupid first round draft pick from the old regimes that screwed it up every year. I don't wish him ill, but I'm certainly glad the Bills are no longer spending millions on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Was he winded at all though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 That's the long and the short of it. It's pretty clear he wasn't psychically capable of carrying the load (20+ carries) week in and week out. And that's why there's no comparison to McCoy. As Bill said above, it was another stupid first round draft pick from the old regimes that screwed it up every year. I don't wish him ill, but I'm certainly glad the Bills are no longer spending millions on him. He was a nix pick, who assembled a lot of our talent including our current GM - wasn't he? And we also allegedly offered him a pretty good payday back on February under this regime So I'm not sure your post hit the mark like you intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 He was a nix pick, who assembled a lot of our talent including our current GM - wasn't he? And we also allegedly offered him a pretty good payday back on February under this regime So I'm not sure your post hit the mark like you intended I think that his post was on point. Spiller was a stupid draft pick regardless of who selected him. The fact that he was offered a big contract IS a concern. Whaley was very lucky that he did not accept it. And so are we as Bills Fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (2) Mods who will shut down/close any thread that is remotely similar to another thread EXCEPT FOR threads bashing CJ (and a few other subjects) We are bastards, aren't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 He was a nix pick, who assembled a lot of our talent including our current GM - wasn't he? And we also allegedly offered him a pretty good payday back on February under this regime So I'm not sure your post hit the mark like you intended Seriously. Thank god for that McCoy deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 i dont know that the two hackett/marrone fans are the best to be leading a victory lap on anything related to offensive production That's a gross misrepresentation and you damn well know it. My contention was and always is: if you don't have the Joe's, don't B word about the X's and O's. Hating Hackett/Marrone is all the rage in Bills Nation and for good reason. And loving Roman is just as much en vogue right now. But jeebus: Tyrod, Karlos, McCoy, Incognito, Felton, Clay and Harvin: what do all these players have in common? They're the most integral members of our offense right now...and they're brand new to the team. They represent considerable upgrades at nearly half of the offense, so don't anyone sit there with a straight face and tell me the unit is better now simply because we ditched Hackett/Marrone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 He was a nix pick, who assembled a lot of our talent including our current GM - wasn't he? And we also allegedly offered him a pretty good payday back on February under this regime So I'm not sure your post hit the mark like you intended That pick was all Chan Gailey, and him wanting his "waterbug" type player. Probably because he saw the talent in the kid firsthand during his HC college days at Georgia Tech. Spiller at Clemson (2006-2009) was the ACC offensive player of the year in 2009. Naturally Nix wanted to give his new hire as HC the players he wanted. Gailey also came into Buffalo spouting to the FO that he didn't need superstars on offense to win games, and could get it done with average players. (perhaps "average" meaning less expensive) The man might have been a bit more successful in Buffalo if he knew who to hire as his DC. JMHO But yea, I'm darn glad he is a Saint now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) That's a gross misrepresentation and you damn well know it. My contention was and always is: if you don't have the Joe's, don't B word about the X's and O's. Hating Hackett/Marrone is all the rage in Bills Nation and for good reason. And loving Roman is just as much en vogue right now. But jeebus: Tyrod, Karlos, McCoy, Incognito, Felton, Clay and Harvin: what do all these players have in common? They're the most integral members of our offense right now...and they're brand new to the team. They represent considerable upgrades at nearly half of the offense, so don't anyone sit there with a straight face and tell me the unit is better now simply because we ditched Hackett/Marrone. While a lot of this is true, guys are running free all over the field. That's scheme, it's a combination of players and coaching. Edited September 30, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 While a lot of this is true guys are running free all over the field. That's scheme, it's a combination of players and coaching. They were last year too. All-22's showed Sammy/Woods in giant gaps all over the field. But to the larger point, nowhere did I mean to imply that Roman doesn't have SOMETHING to do with the improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 CJ is a speed runner that needs space. What hurt him was not having an accurate QB who can provide him the swing pass and short drops that he could take it to the house. We can't compare him for a North-South type runner and he never was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 While a lot of this is true, guys are running free all over the field. That's scheme, it's a combination of players and coaching. Yea heaven forbid we use formations, and motion to create favorable and successful matchups. The players are better but they are also being put in better positions to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doro Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Just hundred yards behind Shady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 We are bastards, aren't we? Well... Maybe you are... The rest of us, not so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman00 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I have no hate for Spiller. He's an exciting back, he has limitations but when he is used properly he can change games. Plus he was a great guy off the field as well. I hope he gets healthy and goes on a tear in NO.... As long as he doesn't do it against us, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) No longer MIA. Article says something about CJ Spiller "in space" http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2015/10/cj_spiller_saves_the_day_for_s.html Edited October 5, 2015 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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