AdamK Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Heh. Cute. Cute. Like your understanding of the English language. Just for fun, I'll match you stupid for stupid - If Fred Jackson is nothing more than a "locker room cheerleader", then I hope Bryce Brown gets injured and Whaley is forced to re-sign Fred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I don't think this was really about Bryce Brown at all. I'm not even sure that Brown makes the team. It's very possible they keep three RB and they are Shady, Karlos and Boobie. They want to keep 6 WR, they want to keep 4 TE, they want to keep Thigpen, they want to keep 3 QB. There really isn't room on the roster to keep four RB when only one plays at a time. Most teams keep three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Thanx, bandit. Maybe I am a tad jaded but have definitely learned that not every thing is black and white in the coaching and GM area. As an example, not everything that Marrone did was wrong (Mike Williams) and not everything that Whaley has done is golden (QB, getting rid of Levitre without a replacement). Similarly, I am not sure everything Ryan is doing will turn out to be the best for the team. Very true. I do think that Whaley has the burden of needing to think about the future now. They have the benefit of rolling cap space over into 2016, and they're going to need if they truly intend to keep all of Darues, Gilmore, Glenn, and Bradham (and I believe they'd like to). Like it or not, that's probably going to mean some losses of guys we've come to know and love. Freddie is just the beginning; guys like Kyle, McKelvin, and Wood could very likely be next. These are the problems of 1st World NFL teams (and by that I mean teams with lots of talent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If anything much of the Whaley outrage seems to be coming from posters with less than a hundred posts. The funny thing is posters like you with big post counts have been wrong for years. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Again, my argument is not McCoy over FredJ, it is Bryce Brown over FredJ. This move makes little sense, no matter how it is spunbryce brown (if he makes the team) will very well be inactive on gameday due to numbers and ST contribution. If he makes the team it is for McCoy injury insurance. I don't think making Fred inactive for the same reasons, which is likely how it would have played out, would go over well. Brown is a young, fast, cheap option for the role he would have if he makes the team. Fred is an old, expensive option for the role he would have had if he made the team. If they kept him one more year I would have thought - that's nice. I love Fred. But I don't know how much he would play. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Kirby, maybe I missed it but what are you suggesting that Whaley should have done? Inform the sponsors of the move before he told Fred? Before he informed the league? I'm just curious. No, but if everyone is in lockstep (especially with the spring rumors) they probably should have tried to steer it away from Freddy. I would say something to the tune of, "I really think that Watkins would be the best fit. You want to people to associate your brand at the top and he is about to be one of the top players in the NFL. You guys would be getting a real bargain because in 2 years his image will be associated with M&T and Gatorade." That is pretty rough but you get the point. Just kind of be cognizant of what MAY happen. As I said earlier, we learned the hard way. We had players on tickets that had been traded, 3 story signs that cost 6 figures that had to be taken down midseason, etc... You do not need to consult the marketing people but they need to be keenly aware of the team (on and off the field). That is why I used Mario as an example. Next year at this time, he would NOT be the guy that I centered my marketing around. he wouldn't be on my ticket stock, commercials, in arena signage, etc... While I believe that he WILL be here there is a small chance that he won't. If you are set on using players (I always liked to use fans, mascots, etc...) use someone that will definitely be there (like Watkins). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Cute. Like your understanding of the English language. Just for fun, I'll match you stupid for stupid - If Fred Jackson is nothing more than a "locker room cheerleader", then I hope Bryce Brown gets injured and Whaley is forced to re-sign Fred. This is a great way to build a following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 No, but if everyone is in lockstep (especially with the spring rumors) they probably should have tried to steer it away from Freddy. I would say something to the tune of, "I really think that Watkins would be the best fit. You want to people to associate your brand at the top and he is about to be one of the top players in the NFL. You guys would be getting a real bargain because in 2 years his image will be associated with M&T and Gatorade." That is pretty rough but you get the point. Just kind of be cognizant of what MAY happen. As I said earlier, we learned the hard way. We had players on tickets that had been traded, 3 story signs that cost 6 figures that had to be taken down midseason, etc... You do not need to consult the marketing people but they need to be keenly aware of the team (on and off the field). That is why I used Mario as an example. Next year at this time, he would NOT be the guy that I centered my marketing around. he wouldn't be on my ticket stock, commercials, in arena signage, etc... While I believe that he WILL be here there is a small chance that he won't. If you are set on using players (I always liked to use fans, mascots, etc...) use someone that will definitely be there (like Watkins). I understand that completely. But I think they had every intention of keeping Fred in the spring. Then they drafted Karlos and then Karlos beat Fred out for the #2 job so he became expendable because now if McCoy goes down they think they have someone that can carry the ball 10-15 times a game the way they thought that of Fred if McCoy went down. With Karlos also a ST player and known to be able to pass block and catch the ball (Fred is obviously better at those two things than Karlos), then Fred became expendable when you then add, age, salary, injury history, etc to it. I would have kept Fred myself. But I don't at all think this was the plan. I think Karlos beat him out and they were surprised at how well he played and how fast he picked things up and they were now thinking short, mid and long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Perspective from a Cowboys' beat writer @clarencehilljr i have a problem with Doug Whaley being called a rogue. There are disagreements all the time over players. He has final say. It happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Some people conveniently miss nuance - like quotes around words - as a strategy to advance their interests. Those whom they represent encourage these tactics to create false dichotomies that favor their narrative. Pretty sleazy stuff, yet fitting in a case such as this when the principle has acted in the sleaziest of fashions. Of course I'm a paid shill for Whaley. How else do I spend so much time here and still afford to eat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) No, but if everyone is in lockstep (especially with the spring rumors) they probably should have tried to steer it away from Freddy. I would say something to the tune of, "I really think that Watkins would be the best fit. You want to people to associate your brand at the top and he is about to be one of the top players in the NFL. You guys would be getting a real bargain because in 2 years his image will be associated with M&T and Gatorade." That is pretty rough but you get the point. Just kind of be cognizant of what MAY happen. As I said earlier, we learned the hard way. We had players on tickets that had been traded, 3 story signs that cost 6 figures that had to be taken down midseason, etc... You do not need to consult the marketing people but they need to be keenly aware of the team (on and off the field). That is why I used Mario as an example. Next year at this time, he would NOT be the guy that I centered my marketing around. he wouldn't be on my ticket stock, commercials, in arena signage, etc... While I believe that he WILL be here there is a small chance that he won't. If you are set on using players (I always liked to use fans, mascots, etc...) use someone that will definitely be there (like Watkins). That's an interesting point, but is any of that responsibility on Whaley? Or is this a situation where the marketing people screwed up and want to point the finger back at Whaley? If you, as an outsider, can identify players to avoid centering a campaign around, shouldn't they as well? Edit: And if the leak/complaint is coming from these marketing/PR people, I'd say that that's an indication that maybe we shouldn't be trusting them with information about moves the team's going to be making, until it's official. Edited September 2, 2015 by MRW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Now I'm pissed I haven't gotten my paycheck from OBD for being planted here. #dishonesty #rogue Peg's is cheap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 HAHAHAHHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in KC Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 It's clear nothing outrageous happened here, but I'm still sad to see Fred go. He made me proud many times over the last decade, and I expect I will always wish him well. Critiquing the Bills: I believed Fred was still the second best RB on the Bills. Letting him go tells me they are either team-planning for the future, or sensitive to his salary hit, neither of which they want to get picked up in the media. If Karlos clearly plays as well as Fred in the backup position, I'll realized I just assessed the talent wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Thanx, bandit. Maybe I am a tad jaded but have definitely learned that not every thing is black and white in the coaching and GM area. As an example, not everything that Marrone did was wrong (Mike Williams) and not everything that Whaley has done is golden (QB, getting rid of Levitre without a replacement). Similarly, I am not sure everything Ryan is doing will turn out to be the best for the team.Frankly Whaley is looking pretty smart over Levitre and EJ right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I understand that completely. But I think they had every intention of keeping Fred in the spring. Then they drafted Karlos and then Karlos beat Fred out for the #2 job so he became expendable because now if McCoy goes down they think they have someone that can carry the ball 10-15 times a game the way they thought that of Fred if McCoy went down. With Karlos also a ST player and known to be able to pass block and catch the ball (Fred is obviously better at those two things than Karlos), then Fred became expendable when you then add, age, salary, injury history, etc to it. I would have kept Fred myself. But I don't at all think this was the plan. I think Karlos beat him out and they were surprised at how well he played and how fast he picked things up and they were now thinking short, mid and long term. Me too and that is why I used Mario in the one example. If there is even a CHANCE that a player might not be here I would avoid using them. There are a handful of guys that you could have used: McCoy (quirky personality), Watkins (a little quite), Hughes (not well known enough), Aaron Williams (if he has a big year I would use him a lot), and Charles Clay (quiet). Those are the guys that I can pretty much guarantee will be on the roster after this year. There are lots of others that are 99% likely but these guys are your safest bets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Exactly. Organization has been preaching "win now", well Fred is better than Bryce right now. so what you are saying is he is better then the maybe 3rd or 4th best RB on the team? They could have kept him for one more meaningless PS game where it's mostly 4th stringers filling the lineup and players teams want to get one last look at before cutting, or cut him early so he can catch on early on another team. The Bills still have some of the other RBs on the roster so they have bodies to play this week that will be part of the next round of cuts. They have decided McCoy and Karlos are their tandem. There's no guarantee Brown even makes tell team, but as a 4th option who may not dress on game day, would fans have prefered they replace him with Fred so he can be 4th on the depth chart and stand on the sidelines in street clothes? Brown is young with potential he can still reach, Dixon is a really good special teams player. They made a tough choice they knew wasn't going to be popular, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the correct move. And even if the fans or Fred don't see it this way, it was a nice gesture by the team to do it now so he can go to a team early and have a roster spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Shouldn't there be some kind of Whaley/Palin poster? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/42/GoingRogue.jpg/200px-GoingRogue.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Frankly Whaley is looking pretty smart over Levitre and EJ right now. Looks like they made the right call on Byrd too who's barely been on the field for the Saints. Edited September 2, 2015 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That is really what I meant by risky. There is much more to lose by making that decision than there is to gain. Whaley may be right but he certainly didn't choose the conservative, safe route. Which is refreshing as a Bills fan, don't you agree? It's on Whaley to build the best team he thinks he can put together--devoid of emotional attachments or sponsor obligations. Full stop. The last GM that did that around here just got fitted for a gold jacket in Canton. In between, we've seen some good (Butler) and bad (Marv) GMs, but neither was a gunslinger. Always the safe, conservative route. Whaley's got a lot of things to prove ("Sir, I knew Bill Polian. You're no Bill Polian"), but having balls isn't something that's one of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That's an interesting point, but is any of that responsibility on Whaley? Or is this a situation where the marketing people screwed up and want to point the finger back at Whaley? If you, as an outsider, can identify players to avoid centering a campaign around, shouldn't they as well? Edit: And if the leak/complaint is coming from these marketing/PR people, I'd say that that's an indication that maybe we shouldn't be trusting them with information about moves the team's going to be making, until it's official. No, it is pretty common; when I was on the management side I knew a lot of moves that happened and a lot that didn't. We had to be prepared to react to what was potentially coming. It is everyone's responsibility. You need to be able to read the tea leaves some. I just gave a list of the guys that I would try to use for my marketing campaign. Those guys will all be on the team next April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Me too and that is why I used Mario in the one example. If there is even a CHANCE that a player might not be here I would avoid using them. There are a handful of guys that you could have used: McCoy (quirky personality), Watkins (a little quite), Hughes (not well known enough), Aaron Williams (if he has a big year I would use him a lot), and Charles Clay (quiet). Those are the guys that I can pretty much guarantee will be on the roster after this year. There are lots of others that are 99% likely but these guys are your safest bets. But in the end doesn't that come down to the marketing and PR guys, not Whaley. They should have a policy about not using certain players in their marketing materials and inform their corporate sponsors to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Absolutely. Also he will hear it when Brown misses a blitz pick up and Taylor gets whacked. I think it's possible that the Tyrod announcement and the Fred announcement may be tied by more than coincidence and PR. Fred is still one of the best pass blocking backs in the league. I wonder if they would have cut him if the decision would have been to start Matt Cassell instead of Tyrod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 No, but if everyone is in lockstep (especially with the spring rumors) they probably should have tried to steer it away from Freddy. I would say something to the tune of, "I really think that Watkins would be the best fit. That would have been a public relations disaster, IMO. Akin to a Fred Jackson death watch. No way M&T would have wanted to be part of the blowback those optics would have created... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 No, but if everyone is in lockstep (especially with the spring rumors) they probably should have tried to steer it away from Freddy. I would say something to the tune of, "I really think that Watkins would be the best fit. You want to people to associate your brand at the top and he is about to be one of the top players in the NFL. You guys would be getting a real bargain because in 2 years his image will be associated with M&T and Gatorade." That is pretty rough but you get the point. Just kind of be cognizant of what MAY happen. As I said earlier, we learned the hard way. We had players on tickets that had been traded, 3 story signs that cost 6 figures that had to be taken down midseason, etc... You do not need to consult the marketing people but they need to be keenly aware of the team (on and off the field). That is why I used Mario as an example. Next year at this time, he would NOT be the guy that I centered my marketing around. he wouldn't be on my ticket stock, commercials, in arena signage, etc... While I believe that he WILL be here there is a small chance that he won't. If you are set on using players (I always liked to use fans, mascots, etc...) use someone that will definitely be there (like Watkins). I don't get the lockstep comment. Sales and marketing should not be part of the loop on player personnel at all. I can't even see how you can even drop a hint without it creating even more problems for the Bills. This snafu is on M&T's marketing people for building a massive campaign around a 34 year old player, albeit one very popular player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Which is refreshing as a Bills fan, don't you agree? It's on Whaley to build the best team he thinks he can put together--devoid of emotional attachments or sponsor obligations. Full stop. The last GM that did that around here just got fitted for a gold jacket in Canton. In between, we've seen some good (Butler) and bad (Marv) GMs, but neither was a gunslinger. Always the safe, conservative route. Whaley's got a lot of things to prove ("Sir, I knew Bill Polian. You're no Bill Polian"), but having balls isn't something that's one of them... Yeah, I don't hate it at all. That is the GM's job. I happen to believe that Fred is one of the best 3 RB on this team and that is why I didn't like the decision. It is up to the GM to build the roster though and I am glad that he has that power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Your faux "shock" that management has plants on the payroll doing social media damage control is charming and telling. Also, tossing in that little strawman qualifier of "thinking Whaley is a good GM" was a nice added touch. Whaley must be proud. I am pretty confident the Buffalo Bills are not paying anyone to post on twobillsdrive.com. For the record, I also believe that Apollo 11 did in fact land on the moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That's an interesting point, but is any of that responsibility on Whaley? Or is this a situation where the marketing people screwed up and want to point the finger back at Whaley? If you, as an outsider, can identify players to avoid centering a campaign around, shouldn't they as well? Edit: And if the leak/complaint is coming from these marketing/PR people, I'd say that that's an indication that maybe we shouldn't be trusting them with information about moves the team's going to be making, until it's official. it's not the Bills responsibility at all with the sponsors. It's a risk that companies take using athletes to market their brands. Anyone can be moved, even Gretzky was traded. Teams can't have to worry about who sponsors have chosen to represent them. It's a risk they have to weigh themselves when they plan their marketing campaigns. In Washington they have RG3 on the home opener tickets where Cousins will be the starter, and that's coming from the teams front office. Should RG3 have to start the game because they front office used him on the ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 But in the end doesn't that come down to the marketing and PR guys, not Whaley. They should have a policy about not using certain players in their marketing materials and inform their corporate sponsors to do the same. I agree, but that is where the communication comes in. It is more on the marketing side to know but ownership is not going to be happy if you anger someone spending $1.5M or whatever it is. The football people have to make football decisions but as an organization you have to communicate. As an example the tickets are approved by a whole bunch of people. The Sr. Management team needs to know what is going on. The person on the ground floor doesn't but the department heads must in order to avoid situations like this. They never need to "leak" anything they simply steer the campaign in another direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If the leak came from the marketing departmetnt I'm going to polish up my resume - I'm ready for a change after 14 years... Also, for those that think Rex was totally out of the loop on this (*cough*Negativo*cough*), not sure if you saw last night's Hard Knocks where they were looking at the depth chart deciding on roster decisions and who was getting cut, but it wasn't just the GM sitting in front of a board making decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) @spotrac: Most Cap $ Cleared Since Monday: #Bills: $8.8M #Colts: $8.5M #Raiders: $7.2M #Rams: $6.9M #AZCardinals: $6.5M #Texans: $6.4M #Broncos: $6.3M #doinghisjob #rogue #dareu$$ Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I don't get the lockstep comment. Sales and marketing should not be part of the loop on player personnel at all. I can't even see how you can even drop a hint without it creating even more problems for the Bills. This snafu is on M&T's marketing people for building a massive campaign around a 34 year old player, albeit one very popular player.is the issue people had with Brandon that they didn't want a marketing guy to make decisions for what's on the field, now they say the marketing department should be in lockstep with the football department so they don't have a cut or traded player as part of a marketing campaign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That would have been a public relations disaster, IMO. Akin to a Fred Jackson death watch. No way M&T would have wanted to be part of the blowback those optics would have created... They wouldn't know. You sell them on the benefits elsewhere and the drawbacks. "With all of the optimism of the team moving forward I would think that you want to use someone that will be a big part of the team for years to come. As much as we all love Fred, he is 34 and closer to the end than the beginning of his career. It makes much more sense to me to start featuring Sammy Watkins and the future of the Bills. You want your brand to be associated with what is next." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamK Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Also, after having 2 nights to sleep on it I like it even less. Doug Whaley can kiss my ass. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If the leak came from the marketing departmetnt I'm going to polish up my resume - I'm ready for a change after 14 years... Also, for those that think Rex was totally out of the loop on this (*cough*Negativo*cough*), not sure if you saw last night's Hard Knocks where they were looking at the depth chart deciding on roster decisions and who was getting cut, but it wasn't just the GM sitting in front of a board making decisions. to be fair Bill OBrien was given control over the 53 when he was hired there... But yes that is the common practice. Sal was saying at SJF there were nightly meetings to discuss personnel with coaches/FO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I agree, but that is where the communication comes in. It is more on the marketing side to know but ownership is not going to be happy if you anger someone spending $1.5M or whatever it is. The football people have to make football decisions but as an organization you have to communicate. As an example the tickets are approved by a whole bunch of people. The Sr. Management team needs to know what is going on. The person on the ground floor doesn't but the department heads must in order to avoid situations like this. They never need to "leak" anything they simply steer the campaign in another direction. In this day and age, I think it's more dangerous for your marketing department to imply to MT Bank in the spring that Fred Jackson may not make the team in the fall when they want to use him than it is to risk him not being here when chances are good he is going to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I don't get the lockstep comment. Sales and marketing should not be part of the loop on player personnel at all. I can't even see how you can even drop a hint without it creating even more problems for the Bills. This snafu is on M&T's marketing people for building a massive campaign around a 34 year old player, albeit one very popular player. Just to be clear I am talking about Sr. Management. That is 100% the situation in any place that I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Lots of "entertaining" hot takes in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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