Wawrow Article Indicates EJ Sees Wall's Writing

[Big Gun]

I'm saying that if you want to compare him to the worst of the worst, its fair to compare to the best. Because I do not believe he's the worst of the worst. I believe he falls as close to Losman as he does to Manning. Those are the two extremes here.

 

Statistically, he can be compared to the better QB's in similar game starts. Eye test, maybe you can equate him with Losman. There's so many staunch takes of guys on here that are like, "I know football, I know when a guys got it and when he doesn't and he just don't" on here its maddening to me. And all this said, I don't care if he sits at 3rd all season and gets traded, I just don't see where he flat out sucks though. And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

and there is the rub, how bad does he have to be, how many in the media have to say he is not fairing well, and how many coaches have now seen enough of him and yet defenders keep arguing just to argue I think.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

IIRC, the first quarter of that game was also the last time Evans faced press man coverage with no safety help. Making Losman beat you with anything else turned out to be a good strategy.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Exactly Lee and Losman turned out to be a circus act. Rediculous arm strength and rediculous deep ball speed and skill. Once they started backing up the safety and rolling him to Lee's side... Other than a few strikes here and there it fizzled.

[TSOL]

and there is the rub, how bad does he have to be, how many in the media have to say he is not fairing well, and how many coaches have now seen enough of him and yet defenders keep arguing just to argue I think.

I'm trying to provide a balanced counter argument. He has won games for us, he has looked great at the end of games, 2 minute situations, under pressure. I do not trust Marrone, and Rex has his favorite. The media wants clicks, and I am not feeling the Tyrod love. I make my mind up on my own, not by what I'm told.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

and there is the rub, how bad does he have to be, how many in the media have to say he is not fairing well, and how many coaches have now seen enough of him and yet defenders keep arguing just to argue I think.

Hence the dichotomy... I'd agrue if you were at the Carolina game and watched him coolly and calmly win the game with his arm and his legs or look at the way he nearly led the team to beat the pats in his rookie opener, his exemplary games v the Jets and jax or even decent starts last season v Chicago and Miami, you can argue there is SOMETHING there. Couple that with the history of QB development in the NFL, and there IS still some doubt whether the guy should hit the bricks or continue on as a development project.

 

*Add* competent QBing in the NFL is hard to come by. Take EJs physical attributes, they are 1 in a million.... His anticipation and timing stink, but he's got intangibles and numerous tangibles. If it's just mental and enough experience turns him into even a Donte culpepper calibur guy, it's worth it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[GG]

 

Putting aside all the noise concerning EJ and listening only to what Rex and Roman have said I honestly feel they'll keep EJ...In the interview with Roman last week on Murph's show he seemed to be very impressed with EJ's skill set but said he just needs to learn the Offense...Rex has been complimentary about EJ for the most part as well...

 

Now...I fully understand that Rex and Roman are not going to talk about cutting EJ right now...But I just think they see the same upside in EJ most of us see...And I think the fact that Roman has only had him for a short period of time factors in here...He had Kaep for a full year plus before they were comfortable leaving him in there...EJ is still a young, inexperienced QB...TT may have only been a back-up, but he has two full seasons on an NFL roster, getting real NFL coaching (yes that was a jab at Marrone and the boy wonder), over EJ...And Cassel has been around forever...EJ needs time...He's not quite ready...

 

The way I see it...and granted I could be totally wrong...EJ is just a bit more than a rookie because he's learning a new system that I'm 100% sure is more complicated than the last one he was in...And I still maintain his ceiling is better than either Cassel or TT...I think Rex and Roman understand that after working with EJ for a few months now, and they'll be willing to be patient with him knowing the payoff could be big down the road... We'll see soon enough I guess...

You can also make the counterargument for all the project QBs that never made the leap using your logic.

 

For the few guys that overcome the development curve, there's always a progression level that coaches and teammates spot which merits further development time. But the guys who don't make it usually don't show the needed progression and teams cut the cord. I think that's the case with EJ. The coaches likely feel that he's roughly at the same stage that he was coming out of FSU, and after his first training camp, his second training camp and now his third.

 

He has enough raw talent and athleticism to be effective in spot duty, but will unlikely develop into the franchise guy. That's why you cut the cord and give the precious playing time to a guy who may be the franchise guy - TT. If that doesn't work out you move on.

[rockpile]

 

Sure he said that, but that doesn't include what he told The AP after he spoke to the rest of the media.

 

jw

 

The full story is out. He was asked if he felt his day's were numbered, and this is the response he gave.

He was then asked if he has thought of "somewhere else," and his response is included in the full version of the piece.

 

jw

 

Nice report, John.

 

It has been my experience that you have tried to communicate what is happening without having an editorial agenda, and cherry picking things to support your perspective.

 

Hope to see you again on Saturday in OP. Are you covering the Bills game?

 

Rockpile

 

I'm so sick of your anti-JW agenda, and belief that you're capable of guessing i have any type of agenda. i'm officially crossing you off my short list of people on this board.

 

jw

 

[Fixxxer]

I take offense to this...oh wait..you were not talking about me...never mind....i will go back to my lurking mode

Ok, i am confused...i see Vic Carucci QB breakdown from last night and it sounds like EJ was mediocre last night. From the tweets I saw, it sounded like he had a very strong practice..what gives...can anyone give a more accurate portrayal??

 

 

Check this out, from fans attending last night.

 

In 11-on-11 work, the most surprising thing we saw was that Cassel got very few reps. Taylor got nearly all of the first team reps, and Manuel got all of the second team reps. Taylor didn't look very sharp, although the play calling didn't play to his strengths, either. They tried having him act like a pocket passer, and it's an area where he needs obvious work. One of the positives we saw was that he was not stepping sideways like he displayed on some of his throws against Carolina. His form looked good all night. Taylor had one throw to the left where he stared at his receiver the whole way, and two defenders nearly jumped the route for an interception. He responded right after that by looking to the right for his primary target, then coming back to the left to find Marquise Goodwin for a reception. If he can read the field like that (instead of staring down his primary receiver), he'll be in much better shape. Manuel looked fairly sharp, including a throw of about 20 yards that was a laser to (I think) Thompson in between two defenders. It was the kind of throw that Manuel wouldn't have dared to try under Marrone, and more throws like that would certainly help his case. Cassel was his usual unspectacular self, sticking mostly to short throws. He had one throw that looked a bit dangerous, a higher throw into traffic, but Chris Hogan made a nice grab to pull it down.

Overall, Manuel had a very strong showing. Taylor was so-so, but again, the play calling wasn't suited to his playing style. Cassel was hardly visible, so it was really a duel between Taylor and Manuel tonight. (I think this refutes the idea that Manuel has been completely eliminated from consideration.)

 

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2015/8/18/9174985/notes-for-8-18-bills-browns-practice

[TheFunPolice]

I am not really anti-EJ either. I just haven't seen anything that tells me that he will develop into a good NFL QB. A few really nice plays do not make a quality starting NFL QB.

 

My point with the Losman article is that even guys who aren't very good have their moments in games that matter. Losman led the team on a 2 minute drive to come back and win that game at the end as well, which is mentioned later in the same article.

 

So that's TWO 80+ yard TD passes, on the road, in the regular season against real NFL starters, PLUS a 2 minute drive to come back and win the game right at the end. That day Losman had about as good a game as any NFL QB is going to have.

 

Players make plays in the NFL, even mediocre to poor players in the NFL still have the skill to get hot sometimes and "wow" you. Manuel has had some nice moments (as Losman and Carr did), but I just don't see a quality NFL QB in him.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I am not really anti-EJ either. I just haven't seen anything that tells me that he will develop into a good NFL QB. A few really nice plays do not make a quality starting NFL QB.

 

My point with the Losman article is that even guys who aren't very good have their moments in games that matter. Losman led the team on a 2 minute drive to come back and win that game at the end as well, which is mentioned later in the same article.

 

So that's TWO 80+ yard TD passes, on the road, in the regular season against real NFL starters, PLUS a 2 minute drive to come back and win the game right at the end. That day Losman had about as good a game as any NFL QB is going to have.

 

Players make plays in the NFL, even mediocre to poor players in the NFL still have the skill to get hot sometimes and "wow" you. Manuel has had some nice moments (as Losman and Carr did), but I just don't see a quality NFL QB in him.

The best news I guess everyone can agree to is we are one day closer to getting a final consensus verdict Edited August 19, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[Solomon Grundy]

I am not really anti-EJ either. I just haven't seen anything that tells me that he will develop into a good NFL QB. A few really nice plays do not make a quality starting NFL QB.

 

My point with the Losman article is that even guys who aren't very good have their moments in games that matter. Losman led the team on a 2 minute drive to come back and win that game at the end as well, which is mentioned later in the same article.

 

So that's TWO 80+ yard TD passes, on the road, in the regular season against real NFL starters, PLUS a 2 minute drive to come back and win the game right at the end. That day Losman had about as good a game as any NFL QB is going to have.

 

Players make plays in the NFL, even mediocre to poor players in the NFL still have the skill to get hot sometimes and "wow" you. Manuel has had some nice moments (as Losman and Carr did), but I just don't see a quality NFL QB in him.

I'm glad that you can tell this after 15 games. Manuel was considered a "project" coming out of college. Both Mayock and his current OC calls him "a piece of clay" to be molded. Apparently Rex, Whaley and Co. see something in him to keep giving him opportunity to compete in practice. His teammates continue to talk him up. What happens IF EJ outplays Taylor tomorrow??

[Rico]

What is it about EJ that makes him such a polarizing figure in Buffalo sports history. I get the feeling were going to be arguing about him for the next 20 years. Like, seriously, he's not going to be cut, and he's not going to be "out of the league" in 2016. Hes been drafted by a real NFL organization, he's going into his third year, for chrissakes, and he's not going anywhere. The guys got mad football skills, and some team, at some point, is going to get production out of him. But, yeah, it sucks he hasn't led the Bills to the playoffs yet.

 

To run him out of town because you don't like him, because you think he was a reach at 16 overall? That's nuts, and I seriously ask, which QB's light the league on fire in their first two seasons? No need to answer, I know the names and its a very very short list. Ive made my opinion well known on here and I'm going into this season as a Bills fan, not an EJ supporter or detractor. Might be nice to see people on this board to put down their swords, quit insulting each other for the stance we all are taking on EJ's development.

 

Hardly a bust, and certainly not a hall of famer. Like most players he falls somewhere in the middle. So, to the people being so absolute on him, and I respect many of the long time posters on here's knowledge. But your astute football knowledge hasn't landed you the big scouting job that you may or may not be qualified for.

 

Don't even know why I'm hitting the post button, most of youse made your mind up two and a half years ago. And frankly, makes you look stupid.

If he does end up being cut though, frankly. they are not going to be the ones that will be looking stupid. Part of the price for taking an extreme stand.

[MDH]

If he does end up being cut though, frankly. they are not going to be the ones that will be looking stupid. Part of the price for taking an extreme stand.

 

Sure they are. People have said it numerous times, anybody can guess a QB will not end up being a franchise guy. It's what the percentages dictate. That doesn't mean you abandon your first round investment the moment things don't go well. If you don't want to sit through a young, struggling QB THEN DON'T DRAFT ONE IN THE FIRST ROUND. It's a wasted pick if you don't have the patience to see it play out.

 

Not many people said EJ would end up being a franchise guy. All they wanted to do was to let him progress and see how it plays out. Not make an snap judgement right off the bat. No matter how it turns out the guys who were quick to judge don't look good.

 

 

Why don't they look good? Because if it was so obvious that joe blow on a message board could see the kid would never turn into anything the coaches and GM would have cut bait immediately. They didn't do that. In fact, they gave the kid a chance to win the starting QB job. Why do that when it's so obvious that he'll never end up being a quality starter?

 

Unless we're going to say that these hard line posters who hate him know more about the QB position than GMs and coaches...

[Rico]

 

Sure they are. People have said it numerous times, anybody can guess a QB will not end up being a franchise guy. It's what the percentages dictate. That doesn't mean you abandon your first round investment the moment things don't go well. If you don't want to sit through a young, struggling QB THEN DON'T DRAFT ONE IN THE FIRST ROUND. It's a wasted pick if you don't have the patience to see it play out.

 

Not many people said EJ would end up being a franchise guy. All they wanted to do was to let him progress and see how it plays out. Not make an snap judgement right off the bat. No matter how it turns out the guys who were quick to judge don't look good.

 

 

Why don't they look good? Because if it was so obvious that joe blow on a message board could see the kid would never turn into anything the coaches and GM would have cut bait immediately. They didn't do that. In fact, they gave the kid a chance to win the starting QB job. Why do that when it's so obvious that he'll never end up being a quality starter?

 

Unless we're going to say that these hard line posters who hate him know more about the QB position than GMs and coaches...

Agreed. If you haven't made the playoffs in 10+ years, you don't burn a 1st-round pick on a QB that's a major, MAJOR project. Total hindsight statement from me, since I've never slammed the EJ pick, but it's pretty obvious today.

[TSOL]

If he does end up being cut though, frankly. they are not going to be the ones that will be looking stupid. Part of the price for taking an extreme stand.

We all are certainly entitled to our opinions. Thats the beauty of this intricatly woven tapesty of a forum we have here. If EJ gets cut in 2015, ill eat my hat and post it on youtube and post the link here for you

[metzelaars_lives]

Losman showed NO improvement!! Hell, Losman couldn't excel in XFL!!

That's simply not true. Losman was bad and lost his job in 2005 and then in 2006, took every snap all season, led a miserable team to 7-9 and finished 11th in the NFL in passer rating. Manuel, on the other hand, was decidedly worse in his second year (don't say "but he only played four games"- I'm including all of camp and preseason 2014) than in his first year. I question if he's any better today than he was in August of 2013. That is the concerning part about him. He was promising at times in 2013 but he has not progressed at all since then. I would concede that he is not appearing to be having as bad a camp this year as last year but he is still running third in this competition. Hopefully for his sake, he plays big tomorrow and changes that.

Edited August 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[TheFunPolice]

That's simply not true. Losman was bad and lost his job in 2005 and then in 2006, took every snap all season, led a miserable team to 7-9 and finished 11th in the NFL in passer rating. Manuel, on the other hand, was decidedly worse in his second year (don't say "but he only played four games"- I'm including all of camp and preseason 2014) than in his first year. I question if he's any better today than he was in August of 2013. That is the concerning part about him. He was promising at times in 2013 and he has not progressed at all. I would concede that he is not appearing to be having as bad a camp this year as last year but he is still running third in this competition. Hopefully for his sake, he plays big tomorrow and changes that.

I think many people posting here don't remember JP Losman. They just assume he always looked awful.

I'm glad that you can tell this after 15 games. Manuel was considered a "project" coming out of college. Both Mayock and his current OC calls him "a piece of clay" to be molded. Apparently Rex, Whaley and Co. see something in him to keep giving him opportunity to compete in practice. His teammates continue to talk him up. What happens IF EJ outplays Taylor tomorrow??

Hey everyone has an opinion. That's mine.

 

At the end of the day, people who are angry at anyone who dismisses EJ are misplacing their anger.

 

If he doesn't make it it won't be because a guy on a message board doesn't believe in him.

[Kelly the Dog]

Agreed. If you haven't made the playoffs in 10+ years, you don't burn a 1st-round pick on a QB that's a major, MAJOR project. Total hindsight statement from me, since I've never slammed the EJ pick, but it's pretty obvious today.

They got him and Kiko, or, now, him and Shady McCoy for that pick.

[GG]

 

Sure they are. People have said it numerous times, anybody can guess a QB will not end up being a franchise guy. It's what the percentages dictate. That doesn't mean you abandon your first round investment the moment things don't go well. If you don't want to sit through a young, struggling QB THEN DON'T DRAFT ONE IN THE FIRST ROUND. It's a wasted pick if you don't have the patience to see it play out.

 

Not many people said EJ would end up being a franchise guy. All they wanted to do was to let him progress and see how it plays out. Not make an snap judgement right off the bat. No matter how it turns out the guys who were quick to judge don't look good.

 

 

 

Let me get this straight. Because sure fire franchise QBs come around once a decade or so, teams should avoid taking them in the first round? Other than the fact that because they play the most important position in the game is why teams are willing to take a risk in taking them in the first round.

 

For the second point, you have it backwards. The logic was to gauge his development to see if he can grow into a franchise guy. In his 3rd training camp, the answer appears to be no. There is a limit to how much time you devote to developing a guy. If he's not showing tangible improvement in his third camp, then you have to decide whether continued investment is worth it. it appears that's what the Bills are deciding now.

[Rico]

We all are certainly entitled to our opinions. Thats the beauty of this intricatly woven tapesty of a forum we have here. If EJ gets cut in 2015, ill eat my hat and post it on youtube and post the link here for you

No need for my benefit, you're cool. Certain others though....

[MDH]

 

 

Let me get this straight. Because sure fire franchise QBs come around once a decade or so, teams should avoid taking them in the first round? Other than the fact that because they play the most important position in the game is why teams are willing to take a risk in taking them in the first round.

 

For the second point, you have it backwards. The logic was to gauge his development to see if he can grow into a franchise guy. In his 3rd training camp, the answer appears to be no. There is a limit to how much time you devote to developing a guy. If he's not showing tangible improvement in his third camp, then you have to decide whether continued investment is worth it. it appears that's what the Bills are deciding now.

 

Not sure what you're talking about in regards to your first point. That is not what I said at all. Not even close.

 

And I don't have it backwards. In fact, I said pretty much what you said. Let it play out and see how he progresses. I don't agree we're at a cut bait point but - obviously - that's not for me to say. We'll see what the coaching staff thinks.