Cassel's "Ceiling"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

There are maybe 8-10 QBs in the league that could make ANY team a playoff contender.

 

There are probably 10 starting QBs in the league who couldn't make the playoffs with any roster.

 

I don't put Cassel in either category. I see his skill set as being highly context-specific. He could never be the difference maker on a mediocre to poor roster. But history shows that if you put him in the right situation he can win a bunch of games.

 

I would agree that Cassel's skill set seems very context- specific, to a run-heavy offense where the QB job is to pass enough to keep the D honest. I agree that history shows he can win a bunch of games in that situation. I think you beg the question, how many of those 10 starting QB who "couldn't make the playoffs with any roster" could succeed with a strong D and that specific context on offense? It's a moot point because pass-heavy O is in fashion and most of them won't get the chance to try.

 

The other point about the history is "that was then, this is now". Just because a player in a tough physical game could do something 5 years ago, does not mean he can do it now. Cassel says his best football is ahead of him. We'll see.

 

I would put the # of QB who could make any team a playoff contender rather lower - Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck - but who else?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Fitzpatrick has had 81 TDs over the last 4 years and Cassel has had 30.

Fitzpatrick's QB rating is over 10 points higher than Cassel's during the last four years.

Yet we are to believe that Cassel is somehow BETTER than Fitzpatrick?

 

Oh, come now. I love stats, everyone here knows that, but this is Stat Abuse. In the last 4 years, Cassel has started 26 games, meaning he has thrown 1.15 TD/game

In the last 4 years, Fitzpatrick has started 53 games, almost twice as many as Cassel, meaning he has thrown 1.49 TD/game, still more than Cassel but not as impressive when you look at it that way.

 

But wait there's more. One of the first questions in statistics when choosing a data set, is, why that data set? Why the last 4 years?

Cassel had a Really Good Year 5 years ago in a run-first offense captained by Charlie Weis.

Last year, in a run-first offense heavy on Arian Foster, Fitz happened to have the best year of his 10 year professional career (and he still got benched partway through the season).

If want a reasonable comparison, why not go back 5 years?

 

Next question, are you looking at a meaningful statistic? Does the # of TD a QB throws really impact the chances of their winning? With the Bills, Fitz was slinging the ball all over, throwing lots of TDs - and lots of INTs, too.

 

Three metrics which do correlate with wins are a QB's completion percentage, the # of turnovers he has per game (INT plus fumbles), and his TD/INT ratio (if he's airing it out, does he score you points more than he loses you the ball?).

 

If you look at those metrics and look back 5 years, you might still prefer Fitz to Cassel, statistically speaking But at least it would be a more realistic comparison.

 

Doesn't matter. Fitz wore out his welcome here. Some pundit put it that Fitzpatrick has a track record of teams moving on because he's not good enough as a long term starter, but then not managing to replace him with someone as good. Some truth to that.

[Magox]

Whoever does the best during training camp and preseason is who I want to be the QB. Period

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I hope someone steps up.....I was really hoping to hear some glowing reviews of EJ on the 1st media day of OTA's......I didnt.....

 

Why?

 

EJ is still relatively inexperienced. It has been commented that a veteran, however overall mediocre, will often "win" a QB competition in preseason because the vet is faster to pick up a new offense and make the reads. Experience does matter for how quickly that happens.

 

If I heard "glowing reviews" of EJ on the 1st media day, I would assume that they hadn't finished installing the O yet and were keeping it really simple for him.

 

What we want to see is what's there towards the end of training camp and in preseason.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Hopeful

[stinky finger]

Thanks! That even furthers my point

Yessir!

[FireChan]

Cassel has already won the job. Bow to your new QB.

[Maury Ballstein]

Cassel has already won the job. Bow to your new QB.

Link ?

[hondo in seattle]

There seems to be a narrative out there that Cassel is an uninspiring, "game manager" who might be able to lead the team to 10-6 if he can manage to keep from tripping over his own shoelaces.

 

In Cassel's good years (08, '10) his QB rating was top 10, and his combined TD/INT ration was 48/18. He made a Pro Bowl. The '08 team scored 410 points and the '10 team scored 366 points.

 

His '08 team had Sammy Morris as a lead RB, with a strong WR combo (Welker in his prime, still explosive Randy Moss).

 

His '10 team had RB depth (Thomas Jones/Jamaal Charles) and mediocre receivers (Bowe/Moeaki).

 

This is the best offensive personnel Cassel has ever played with. It is certainly the best defense. He is healthy and is not playing for Leslie Frazier, Todd Haley, or Romeo Crennel.

 

There is a ton of similarity in Cassel's stat lines to Alex Smith's recent years in SF/KC.

 

So while I understand that the YPA might not be high, Cassel is not the same as Orton, or Fitzpatrick, or other retread QBs. Smith is a better comp and the Bills would have won 12-13 games last year with Alex Smith as their QB.

 

I don't see why Cassel can't put up a 95 rating, a 3-1 TD/INT ratio, while keeping his attempts at around 30 per game. If that is "game manager" it will still be a Pro Bowl stat line, and the team will win 12 games at minimum.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you titled the thread Cassel's "Ceiling" because you didn't include any realistic exploration of Cassel's "Floor." Like most every QB, Cassel does better working behind a good OL and I'm not convinced we have one.

 

Maybe Greg Roman will bring out the best of Cassel and he'll produce on par with '08 or '10. Then again maybe we'll see Cassel's "Floor" where he throws twice as many picks as TDs as he did in 2012. Cassel hasn't produced poor seasons solely because he's lacked talent around him. He brings his own shortcomings to the table too.

 

I agree there are reasons to be hopeful. Then again, I find reasons to be hopeful every season. My hardened expectation is that Cassel will be the mediocre QB that he's been most of his career. Given the quality of the rest of the squad, that might be just enough to break the drought.

[Kirby Jackson]

I personally think that Cassel is a small step down from Orton. Cassel's best year's may have been better than Orton's best but Orton throughout his career was a more consistent performer.

 

With that being said I am glad that Cassel is on this team. He makes me feel a little safer. I believe that with the talent and coaching that he is surrounded by he will at least be adequate. There are too many playmakers on this team for him to look like he did in Minnesota where he had none.

 

Also, unlike most people on this board I am not that concerned about the QB position. I know that sounds crazy but hear me out. My expectation at the moment is that the Bills are going to win 10-11 games with the QB responsible for winning as many of those games as me. With that being said I think that even decent QB play (think Orton last year) will get this team to that mark. If we get slightly above average play (think Alex Smith) we are a Super Bowl contender.

 

The defense is WAY too good and there are too many playmakers on offense to get punished by bad QB play. Those offensive weapons are going to make at least a couple of big plays per game on their own that turn into points and the defense will be ruthless. I hate to use the Ravens example because it is a little played out but that offense went like 6 games without scoring a TD and they were 4-2 (or something like that). This Bills defense COULD look like that (maybe not quite as good but in the league) and the offense has significantly more weapons than the Dilfer-led Ravens.

 

If the QB takes care of the ball and manages the game the Bills will be really good. The offense will be designed to make sure that this happens because the only thing that can hurt them is turnovers. Look back at Alex Smith's last year in SF and count his turnovers. That team was similar to this Bills team but with less playmakers and a better OL; the philosophy holds true. I do not care who plays QB as long as they make the right reads, get the ball to the playmakers in space, and take care of the football. Usually, I am very aggressive and risk averse in nature but I think that a conservative approach is more appropriate with this particular team.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Cassel has already won the job. Bow to your new QB.

you do love trolling attracting attention. :blush:

 

as requested Link?

 

Like the Aerosmith song tile Dream On! Dream until your dreams come true

[GunnerBill]

I personally think that Cassel is a small step down from Orton. Cassel's best year's may have been better than Orton's best but Orton throughout his career was a more consistent performer.

 

With that being said I am glad that Cassel is on this team. He makes me feel a little safer. I believe that with the talent and coaching that he is surrounded by he will at least be adequate. There are too many playmakers on this team for him to look like he did in Minnesota where he had none.

 

Also, unlike most people on this board I am not that concerned about the QB position. I know that sounds crazy but hear me out. My expectation at the moment is that the Bills are going to win 10-11 games with the QB responsible for winning as many of those games as me. With that being said I think that even decent QB play (think Orton last year) will get this team to that mark. If we get slightly above average play (think Alex Smith) we are a Super Bowl contender.

 

The defense is WAY too good and there are too many playmakers on offense to get punished by bad QB play. Those offensive weapons are going to make at least a couple of big plays per game on their own that turn into points and the defense will be ruthless. I hate to use the Ravens example because it is a little played out but that offense went like 6 games without scoring a TD and they were 4-2 (or something like that). This Bills defense COULD look like that (maybe not quite as good but in the league) and the offense has significantly more weapons than the Dilfer-led Ravens.

 

If the QB takes care of the ball and manages the game the Bills will be really good. The offense will be designed to make sure that this happens because the only thing that can hurt them is turnovers. Look back at Alex Smith's last year in SF and count his turnovers. That team was similar to this Bills team but with less playmakers and a better OL; the philosophy holds true. I do not care who plays QB as long as they make the right reads, get the ball to the playmakers in space, and take care of the football. Usually, I am very aggressive and risk averse in nature but I think that a conservative approach is more appropriate with this particular team.

 

See I think he is a small step up from Orton. I think he played pretty well in Minnesota - particularly in 2013 where they kept trying to make Ponder their starter and then traded for Josh Freeman but ended up back with Cassel who played pretty well. He was the guy I wanted us to sign last off-season and there are posts on here where I said that even then. I think Cassel is a more talented distributer of the football than Orton and with our play makers that is what we need.

 

However, I agree with others that he is someway short of Alex Smith or Matt Schaub at his best in Houston. I'd take him above Fitz though. Fitz's numbers will always fool people. The problem with Fitz is the self-destruct button. He is anti-clutch. He makes the biggest mistakes at the most crucial of moments. However, I confess he would have been the starter here the last two years had he stayed.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

hey trolls

 

 

The New York Jets have released quarterback Matt Simms, who backed up starter Geno Smith the past two seasons.

 

what cha think

[Kirby Jackson]

hey trolls

 

 

The New York Jets have released quarterback Matt Simms, who backed up starter Geno Smith the past two seasons.

 

what cha think

Rex had Matt Simms and wasn't a fan.

[John from Riverside]

 

Why?

 

EJ is still relatively inexperienced. It has been commented that a veteran, however overall mediocre, will often "win" a QB competition in preseason because the vet is faster to pick up a new offense and make the reads. Experience does matter for how quickly that happens.

 

If I heard "glowing reviews" of EJ on the 1st media day, I would assume that they hadn't finished installing the O yet and were keeping it really simple for him.

 

What we want to see is what's there towards the end of training camp and in preseason.

Hopeful.....

 

I have been on the EJ train as much as anyone here.....

 

He is in his 3rd year....

 

He is no longer a rookie

Cassel has already won the job. Bow to your new QB.

I am sure you are joking there.....

[Dorkington]

Whoever does the best during training camp and preseason is who I want to be the QB. Period

Pretty much every level headed Bills fan should think this.

 

Not sure why so many are invested in attaching themselves to QB A or QB B.

[Thrivefourfive]

.....

 

In Cassel's good years (08, '10) his QB rating was top 10, and his combined TD/INT ration was 48/18. He made a Pro Bowl. The '08 team scored 410 points and the '10 team scored 366 points. .....

 

 

His '08 team had Sammy Morris as a lead RB, with a strong WR combo (Welker in his prime, still explosive Randy Moss).

 

 

This is the best offensive personnel Cassel has ever played with. It is certainly the best defense. He is healthy and is not playing for Leslie Frazier, Todd Haley, or Romeo Crennel.

 

......

 

 

 

 

Totally lost me here. The team that Cassel took over in 08 (and I don't want even want to get into how there was no pressure on him at all due to the freak Brady injury) was 18-1 the previous season and broke every offensive passing record worth anything. You really think this Bills offense is better than that???

 

You think the Bills offensive line is better? You think the Bills WRs are better? You think Cassel is better this day, than back then? You think the coach is better, including Tom Brady as an offensive assistant? Do the Bills have better leadership?...Belicheck, Harrison, Thomas, Bruschi, Light, Koppen, Mankins, Faulk, Morris, Merriweather, Moss, Wilfolk, Brown, Vrabel, Seymour, BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Jarvis Green!

 

Sorry, but Holy Cow!! McCoy....that's it. He's better. Oh well.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Thrivefourfive

[John from Riverside]

has anyone checked this out on EJ Manuel? Did anyone from do this?

 

https://youtu.be/3c5HTvR1dts

 

 

There are 4 of these on you tube...thoughts?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

See I think he is a small step up from Orton. I think he played pretty well in Minnesota - particularly in 2013 where they kept trying to make Ponder their starter and then traded for Josh Freeman but ended up back with Cassel who played pretty well. He was the guy I wanted us to sign last off-season and there are posts on here where I said that even then. I think Cassel is a more talented distributer of the football than Orton and with our play makers that is what we need.

 

However, I agree with others that he is someway short of Alex Smith or Matt Schaub at his best in Houston. I'd take him above Fitz though. Fitz's numbers will always fool people. The problem with Fitz is the self-destruct button. He is anti-clutch. He makes the biggest mistakes at the most crucial of moments. However, I confess he would have been the starter here the last two years had he stayed.

In the last 5 years, Fitz has been better than Cassel. I don't think you can really argue that.

 

If Cassel is the guy, I will hope for the best. I just will have realistic expectations based on 75% of his career.

[OldTimer1960]

 

See I think he is a small step up from Orton. I think he played pretty well in Minnesota - particularly in 2013 where they kept trying to make Ponder their starter and then traded for Josh Freeman but ended up back with Cassel who played pretty well. He was the guy I wanted us to sign last off-season and there are posts on here where I said that even then. I think Cassel is a more talented distributer of the football than Orton and with our play makers that is what we need.

 

However, I agree with others that he is someway short of Alex Smith or Matt Schaub at his best in Houston. I'd take him above Fitz though. Fitz's numbers will always fool people. The problem with Fitz is the self-destruct button. He is anti-clutch. He makes the biggest mistakes at the most crucial of moments. However, I confess he would have been the starter here the last two years had he stayed.

You though that he played pretty well in 2013? He averaged 200 yards/game and threw 11 TDs vs 9 INTs - Very very close to EJ Manuel's rookie stats where he played with only 1 WR that had ever caught an NFL pass going into the season.

 

In Cassel's 4 years since his miracle 2010 season in KC, he has put up the following over 30 games:

 

Year Yards/Attempt Yds/Game TD Int Rate

2014 6.0 142 3 4 66

2013 7.1 201 11 9 81.6

2012 6.5 200 6 12 67

2011 6.4 190 10 9 77

 

Over those 30 games, he 30 TDs and 34 INTs - that's a good-sized and most-recent sample and it isn't very good. Heck, I'd say EJ Manuel's stats over his first 14 games are at least as good.

 

I didn't post this to say that Manuel is the answer, but if Cassel is still being thought of as a possible answer 10 years into his career, then Manuel certainly ought to get at least this year before he is written off.

[Kirby Jackson]

You though that he played pretty well in 2013? He averaged 200 yards/game and threw 11 TDs vs 9 INTs - Very very close to EJ Manuel's rookie stats where he played with only 1 WR that had ever caught an NFL pass going into the season.

 

In Cassel's 4 years since his miracle 2010 season in KC, he has put up the following over 30 games:

 

Year Yards/Attempt Yds/Game TD Int Rate

2014 6.0 142 3 4 66

2013 7.1 201 11 9 81.6

2012 6.5 200 6 12 67

2011 6.4 190 10 9 77

 

Over those 30 games, he 30 TDs and 34 INTs - that's a good-sized and most-recent sample and it isn't very good. Heck, I'd say EJ Manuel's stats over his first 14 games are at least as good.

 

I didn't post this to say that Manuel is the answer, but if Cassel is still being thought of as a possible answer 10 years into his career, then Manuel certainly ought to get at least this year before he is written off.

If you compare that to Orton last year:

6.8 YPA, 251.5 YPG, 18 TDs, 10 INTS, 87.8 Rating

[Dibs]

has anyone checked this out on EJ Manuel? Did anyone from do this?

 

 

 

There are 4 of these on you tube...thoughts?

Probably should have its own thread with all 4 linked. Bound to generate a lot of opinions.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

from what I heard this AM

Rex will not make a QB decision until (after) he see's all QB's in live game action

[Kirby Jackson]

from what I heard this AM

Rex will not make a QB decision until (after) he see's all QB's in live game action

This feels like a situation that won't be settled until after the 3rd preseason game (unless someone blows them away).

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

This feels like a situation that won't be settled until after the 3rd preseason game (unless someone blows them away).

it will add a dimension to the games and how they are played WRT the starting QB.

 

1st game the starters get a few series?, 2nd game about a quarter, 3rd game over a Qrt and 4th mainly scrubs throughout, no?

[Kirby Jackson]

it will add a dimension to the games and how they are played WRT the starting QB.

 

1st game the starters get a few series?, 2nd game about a quarter, 3rd game over a Qrt and 4th mainly scrubs throughout, no?

Yeah, that sounds about right. My guess is that the 3 QBs all get a 1st quarter, a 2nd quarter and a 3rd quarter. The 4th could fall any number of ways depending on where Tuel is. If this is legitimately a wide-open 3 man competition that feels like the best option to me.

[1billsfan]

 

Oh, come now. I love stats, everyone here knows that, but this is Stat Abuse. In the last 4 years, Cassel has started 26 games, meaning he has thrown 1.15 TD/game

In the last 4 years, Fitzpatrick has started 53 games, almost twice as many as Cassel, meaning he has thrown 1.49 TD/game, still more than Cassel but not as impressive when you look at it that way.

 

But wait there's more. One of the first questions in statistics when choosing a data set, is, why that data set? Why the last 4 years?

Cassel had a Really Good Year 5 years ago in a run-first offense captained by Charlie Weis.

Last year, in a run-first offense heavy on Arian Foster, Fitz happened to have the best year of his 10 year professional career (and he still got benched partway through the season).

If want a reasonable comparison, why not go back 5 years?

 

Next question, are you looking at a meaningful statistic? Does the # of TD a QB throws really impact the chances of their winning? With the Bills, Fitz was slinging the ball all over, throwing lots of TDs - and lots of INTs, too.

 

Three metrics which do correlate with wins are a QB's completion percentage, the # of turnovers he has per game (INT plus fumbles), and his TD/INT ratio (if he's airing it out, does he score you points more than he loses you the ball?).

 

If you look at those metrics and look back 5 years, you might still prefer Fitz to Cassel, statistically speaking But at least it would be a more realistic comparison.

 

Doesn't matter. Fitz wore out his welcome here. Some pundit put it that Fitzpatrick has a track record of teams moving on because he's not good enough as a long term starter, but then not managing to replace him with someone as good. Some truth to that.

 

There's a tale of two veteran QBs in those "starts" stats. Fitzpatrick had been on the ascent the last four years while Cassel has been on the descent. IMO Cassel hasn't fully recovered professionally since being benched for Brady Quinn. Meanwhile, Fitzpatrick has been a "balls to the wall" warrior (a flawed one, yes) in these last four years.

 

In short, IMO Fitzpatrick still has some fight left in him while Cassel doesn't. Only real games will tell the tale though. If he wins the job then we shall see if he plays as good as he thinks he will play.

[metzelaars_lives]

hey trolls

 

 

The New York Jets have released quarterback Matt Simms, who backed up starter Geno Smith the past two seasons.

 

what cha think

Not convinced EJ could beat out Matt Simms for a starting job. EJ Manuel has had 14 starts, Matt Simms has had 0. That should give Simms way more credibility with the EJ dreamers. That's what I think.

[TheFunPolice]

EJ is going to have a tough hill to climb.

 

You can hear it and see it in the body language and phrasing from these coaches. It's like they are saying "well, you never know I guess" in so many words.

 

I hope EJ turns out to be great this preseason because it means we have an answer at QB, which means the chance of making a few deep runs in the post-season. I just don't see it happening.

[CardinalScotts]

He's a lot like Kyle Orton with better mobility. Plug in physical, nasty, possibly good offensive line, a creative offensive coordinator who knows how to call plays, a play making tight end, and another pass catcher no more lee smith. More big play makers and speed at wide out and do it all running back who shows up every week combined with the plus side options last year. Jackson in a defined role, Sammy Watkins healthy and in year two, Robert Woods making hay off off the Watkins Harvin threat - this offense will be very tough with Manuel or Cassel. The competent Offensive Coordinator will be a huge change to put with the upgrade of talent. Some act like Cassel can't throw a forward pass, he'll be fine - he's smart with the football and can get it to play makers. Then you figure in the defense and special teams.

[OldTimer1960]

He's a lot like Kyle Orton with better mobility. Plug in physical, nasty, possibly good offensive line, a creative offensive coordinator who knows how to call plays, a play making tight end, and another pass catcher no more lee smith. More big play makers and speed at wide out and do it all running back who shows up every week combined with the plus side options last year. Jackson in a defined role, Sammy Watkins healthy and in year two, Robert Woods making hay off off the Watkins Harvin threat - this offense will be very tough with Manuel or Cassel. The competent Offensive Coordinator will be a huge change to put with the upgrade of talent. Some act like Cassel can't throw a forward pass, he'll be fine - he's smart with the football and can get it to play makers. Then you figure in the defense and special teams.

What defines “smart with the football”? Seems to me a strongly positive TD to INT ratio would be a good indicator. That is NOT what Matt Cassel has shown over his last 30 NFL games.

[Dorkington]

has anyone checked this out on EJ Manuel? Did anyone from do this?

 

https://youtu.be/3c5HTvR1dts

 

 

There are 4 of these on you tube...thoughts?

Thanks for the link, will be watching shortly.

 

Edit: This guy is a little biased towards EJ, as he doesn't really hold EJ at fault for passes that are off the mark very often.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Dorkington

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Pretty much every level headed Bills fan should think this.

 

Not sure why so many are invested in attaching themselves to QB A or QB B.

 

Ditto

 

Why?

 

EJ is still relatively inexperienced. It has been commented that a veteran, however overall mediocre, will often "win" a QB competition in preseason because the vet is faster to pick up a new offense and make the reads. Experience does matter for how quickly that happens.

 

If I heard "glowing reviews" of EJ on the 1st media day, I would assume that they hadn't finished installing the O yet and were keeping it really simple for him.

 

What we want to see is what's there towards the end of training camp and in preseason.

 

 

Hopeful.....

 

I have been on the EJ train as much as anyone here.....

 

He is in his 3rd year....

 

He is no longer a rookie

 

I agree, EJ is no longer a rookie. He has also only played in 14 games in 1 offensive system for 1 set of coaches. Do you think the term "relatively inexperienced" doesn't apply or that those 14 games and 1 set of coaches will help him pick up a new offense and "show glowing reviews" on day 1 of OTA more than a 10 yr vet who has played for multiple coaches in multiple systems on 4 different teams?

 

Not sure what your point is?

Edited May 29, 2015 by Hopeful

[Prickly Pete]

Pretty much every level headed Bills fan should think this.

 

Not sure why so many are invested in attaching themselves to QB A or QB B.

 

Because most have either been trashing EJM, or insisting that he still has potential, for a few years on this board. They want to be right.

 

I have no preference, but I expect EJM to be the starter.

[metzelaars_lives]

Thanks for the link, will be watching shortly.

 

Edit: This guy is a little biased towards EJ, as he doesn't really hold EJ at fault for passes that are off the mark very often.

That's gotta be the case at least a little bit. I watched all four of them and I was thinking to myself, maybe EJ wasn't as bad as I remember him being last year. I wasn't really sure what to think. Cause I remember him being pretty bad.

Edited May 29, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[Hapless Bills Fan]

has anyone checked this out on EJ Manuel? Did anyone from do this?

 

https://youtu.be/3c5HTvR1dts

 

 

There are 4 of these on you tube...thoughts?

 

Thought #1: Man our line sucked. Worse than I remember.

Thought #2: I think his analysis is a little shallow. For example at times there appear to be open receivers downfield at the point where EJ dumps off. With full speed film, I can't really see if EJ had a lane to hit any of them - might have resulted in a batted pass or the like - but those possiblities don't seem to be considered.

[FireChan]

Cassel!

[OldTimer1960]

Because most have either been trashing EJM, or insisting that he still has potential, for a few years on this board. They want to be right.

 

I have no preference, but I expect EJM to be the starter.

My view is that Manuel generally was OK as a rookie and was not that good last year. How much of that was that the coaches sucked the confidence out of him or that defenses took away some of the things he liked to do? - I don't know.

 

I am pulling for Manuel because:

1. He is a hard worker and has the right work ethic to succeed

2. He has the best combination of size, speed and arm strength on this team

3. He is inexperienced enough to at least *hope* that he can show significant improvement

 

My second choice is Taylor because:

1. He hasn't proven that he can't play well at the NFL level, so there is hope that he could turn out to be good

2. He has speed and arm strength, but lacks desired height and girth

3. In short, there is a little hope in the unknown

 

My last choice is Cassel because:

1. He has proven in several opportunities to not be very good

2. Importantly, he has been bad for the LAST FOUR YEARS

3. He has proven that he isn't the guy to minimize turnovers with a negative TD to INT ratio in his last 30 starts

4. His last miracle season was HALF A DECADE ago

I think it is very unlikely that he reproduces anything close to his miracle 2010 season and there is a lot of recent evidence that he is no better than what Manuel produced in his first 14 games

 

Really, the Bills' QB situation is depressing, I just think the less experienced two have some physical talent and *might* be able to put it together whereas I think the last 4 years and 30 games have pretty much proven that Cassel isn't a good NFL starting QB

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

you were saying

Rex had Matt Simms and wasn't a fan.

 

I must be the new Leroi

 

 

Imo

Edited May 30, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[C.Biscuit97]

My view is that Manuel generally was OK as a rookie and was not that good last year. How much of that was that the coaches sucked the confidence out of him or that defenses took away some of the things he liked to do? - I don't know.

 

I am pulling for Manuel because:

1. He is a hard worker and has the right work ethic to succeed

2. He has the best combination of size, speed and arm strength on this team

3. He is inexperienced enough to at least *hope* that he can show significant improvement

 

My second choice is Taylor because:

1. He hasn't proven that he can't play well at the NFL level, so there is hope that he could turn out to be good

2. He has speed and arm strength, but lacks desired height and girth

3. In short, there is a little hope in the unknown

 

My last choice is Cassel because:

1. He has proven in several opportunities to not be very good

2. Importantly, he has been bad for the LAST FOUR YEARS

3. He has proven that he isn't the guy to minimize turnovers with a negative TD to INT ratio in his last 30 starts

4. His last miracle season was HALF A DECADE ago

I think it is very unlikely that he reproduces anything close to his miracle 2010 season and there is a lot of recent evidence that he is no better than what Manuel produced in his first 14 games

 

Really, the Bills' QB situation is depressing, I just think the less experienced two have some physical talent and *might* be able to put it together whereas I think the last 4 years and 30 games have pretty much proven that Cassel isn't a good NFL starting QB

Very well stated. I'd rather have the unproven qb than the proven mediocre at best passed around veteran.

 

In reality, our team is going to make it hard for a qb to lose us games. But the upside with running that Manuel or Taylor could offer is so much more exciting than Cassel.

 

You can always fall back to Cassel.

[FireChan]

Very well stated. I'd rather have the unproven qb than the proven mediocre at best passed around veteran.

 

In reality, our team is going to make it hard for a qb to lose us games. But the upside with running that Manuel or Taylor could offer is so much more exciting than Cassel.

 

You can always fall back to Cassel.

If we're in a position to have to fall back to Cassel, we're probably in a hole already. I want post season.