SJDK Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Seriously, what are the colleges doing that isn't producing pro-style/pro ready QB's? Is their anyone in the CFL?? I was seriously thinking about that today... SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Spread offense and dual threat QBs. There are still some good pro style prospects in certain programs that run that type of offense, but just not the quantity. MSU always has one - next year connor Cook will be in the draft. He's a 6'4 nfl prototype. Also UM is going back to Harbaughs offense and will start churning them out. USC and LSU usually produce one every few years. Edited February 15, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJDK Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready? Edited February 15, 2015 by SJDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready? Less talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready?IMO, because of the BCS and now cfb playoff system where voters decide who plays for the championship, it is critical to win every game and by as much as possible. "style points" are huge in setting teams apart and a great offense usually wins in cfb because it can spread out the athletes and create mismatches. The difference between college and pro is recruiting. The big time programs get the best athletes, period. In the nfl it is more of a level playing field, and coaching and game planning is more critical. The spread offense and dual threat QB is incredibly difficult to stop when the OL is bigger and stronger and the playmakers are stronger and faster than the opposition. Stanford has had some success with the power run game but have really only been competitive with the big boys when they have an NFL ready QB at the helm. Same at USC. Saban, OTOH, has tried to win with defense and running the ball until Kiffin came on board. But a mediocre QB and inability to score points with a spread offense like OSU did him in. The spread makes the D defend the entire field, and there are usually multiple weapons everywhere. Edited February 15, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJDK Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 IMO, because of the BCS and now cfb playoff system where voters decide who plays for the championship, it is critical to win every game and by as much as possible. "style points" are huge in setting teams apart and a great offense usually wins in cfb because it can spread out the athletes and create mismatches. The difference between college and pro is recruiting. The big time programs get the best athletes, period. In the nfl it is more of a level playing field, and coaching and game planning is more critical. The spread offense and dual threat QB is incredibly difficult to stop when the OL is bigger and stronger and the playmakers are stronger and faster than the opposition. Stanford has had some success with the power run game but have really only been competitive with the big boys when they have an NFL ready QB at the helm. Same at USC. Saban, OTOH, has tried to win with defense and running the ball until Kiffin came on board. But a mediocre QB and inability to score points with a spread offense like OSU did him in. Agreed, maybe its a problem that the defenses aren't good enough to expose this, more of the good HS kids should play defense. I took a lot of pride in it myself. I think a resurgence of press man coverage coupled with relaxing the rules on PI and defensive holding calls is needed to push the college offenses away from the read option & spread stuff (due to more people on the line of scrimmage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Agreed, maybe its a problem that the defenses aren't good enough to expose this, more of the good HS kids should play defense. I took a lot of pride in it myself. I think a resurgence of press man coverage coupled with relaxing the rules on PI and defensive holding calls is needed to push the college offenses away from the read option & spread stuff (due to more people on the line of scrimmageits getting harder and harder to get NFL-ready CBs out of college as well for this reason. They are playing a different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The prospects are disappearing before they hit college. It's starting in high school, teams are putting their two best athletes in the backfield and having the better passer of the two take the snap. The old 6'4" prototype QB plays DE/TE. Think about how few great QBs actually make it to the NFL. If you lose even 2-3 great QBs to coaches who stick them on the line as a high school freshman it has an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section242 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready? I'd say USC is a probably the best option. FSU will have their last two starting QB's taken in the 1st rd. College coaches are under the same circumstances as pro guys. Short time to prove a recruit is the right guy. Look at Texas A&M they had a top recruit transfer to SMU in Matt Davis, Kenny Hill will leave after tearing it up for a few games. Now they've got Kyle Allen and the top QB recruit coming in. One is a a Freshman the other a Soph, one will leave. Coaches on both levels can't develop guys. Win now or get fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJDK Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I'd say USC is a probably the best option. FSU will have their last two starting QB's taken in the 1st rd. College coaches are under the same circumstances as pro guys. Short time to prove a recruit is the right guy. Look at Texas A&M they had a top recruit transfer to SMU in Matt Davis, Kenny Hill will leave after tearing it up for a few games. Now they've got Kyle Allen and the top QB recruit coming in. One is a a Freshman the other a Soph, one will leave. Coaches on both levels can't develop guys. Win now or get fired. i know Florida state QB's are being drafted high but I think it's becoming apparent that their system doesn't translate to the pro's. Ponder, EJ and Winston is about to be picked high but I think we can all see his train wreck coming a mile away. Their system hasn't put out a pro-ready product despite the wins they have put together in the program. Also, USC hasn't done much for their QB's either but they are closer than many schools Leinart, Barkley and Palmer. Palmer did the best as a pro so far but I don't think he really met the expectations many had. All that being said, I don't expect great QB's to be coming out of college like in ridiculous numbers or anything but the struggle these kids have in the pro's is very real with very few exceptions over the past 10 years or so. Edited February 15, 2015 by SJDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Seriously, what are the colleges doing that isn't producing pro-style/pro ready QB's? Is their anyone in the CFL?? I was seriously thinking about that today... SMH They play spread offenses and don't know how to read Defenses. Spread offense and dual threat QBs. There are still some good pro style prospects in certain programs that run that type of offense, but just not the quantity. MSU always has one - next year connor Cook will be in the draft. He's a 6'4 nfl prototype. Also UM is going back to Harbaughs offense and will start churning them out. USC and LSU usually produce one every few years. We need to trade the farm to get Cook next year. Wonder if there is anyway to coerce college to play pro style offenses? I thought that the spread would work in the NFL but it's not, some teams use elements of it but overall QBs still have to be able to play in the pocket and make progressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) They play spread offenses and don't know how to read Defenses. We need to trade the farm to get Cook next year. Wonder if there is anyway to coerce college to play pro style offenses? I thought that the spread would work in the NFL but it's not, some teams use elements of it but overall QBs still have to be able to play in the pocket and make progressions. Cody Kessler is the QB to go after next year. Cook is playing second fiddle. You'll change your tune sometime during next season, mark it down. Edited February 15, 2015 by Mark80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready? it's not rules, it's not enough good defenders. It's like how the triple option flourished and is still played in college but can't work in the pros because the athletes are so much better. Cody Kessler is the QB to go after next year. Cook is playing second fiddle. You'll change your tune sometime during next season, mark80 it down. Maybe, depends on the year and who? Edited February 15, 2015 by Buffalo Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 i know Florida state QB's are being drafted high but I think it's becoming apparent that their system doesn't translate to the pro's. Ponder, EJ and Winston is about to be picked high but I think we can all see his train wreck coming a mile away. Their system hasn't put out a pro-ready product despite the wins they have put together in the program. Also, USC hasn't done much for their QB's either but they are closer than many schools Leinart, Barkley and Palmer. Palmer did the best as a pro so far but I don't think he really met the expectations many had. All that being said, I don't expect great QB's to be coming out of college like in ridiculous numbers or anything but the struggle these kids have in the pro's is very real with very few exceptions over the past 10 years or so. The NFL seriously needs a a farm system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince88 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The NFL seriously needs a a farm system. this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 this Nice member title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The NFL seriously needs a a farm system. This is when it would be nice to have NFL Europe playing and have a noon and 3 game as todays sports TV is horrid. That would also give a place for players to develop ala Freddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The NFL seriously needs a a farm system. They have been trying but if it doesn't make money then it doesn't make sense... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Experimental_Football_League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The Best CFL QB is this guy, he is only 24 years old. http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/5083 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Levi_Mitchell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 college coaches are more adept at making their system fit the players they have, where NFL coaches are set in their ways with 'their' system and almost refuse to build an offense around the players at their disposal. So the NFL is still stuck in the mold of Pocket QBs with multiple progressions and deep drops, even though there aren't guys that who can do that to go around. The Pats change their system depending on their roster. The Seahawlks built an offense Russell Wilson can win with. Chip Kelly is making it work with Foles and Sanchez. Other than those three im not sure any other team does what they should be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) They have been trying but if it doesn't make money then it doesn't make sense... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Experimental_Football_League it makes sense to have more than a handful of quality QBs in the League. Baseball and hockey do it, the NFL can too. I'm not talking about in Europe, I'm talking about each team with their own team located in a city nearby by so fans can go see their team of the future. We could have one in Rochester or Hamilton or Syracuse, it would be awesome to watch future Bills develop and then move on to the Bills. Running in the fall is not smart because it makes for football over-saturation. Put it in the spring when we need our football fix. Also the NFL doesn't run it, they hope to partner with the NFL, and therefore is not a real farm system and without League backing it will flounder. college coaches are more adept at making their system fit the players they have, where NFL coaches are set in their ways with 'their' system and almost refuse to build an offense around the players at their disposal. So the NFL is still stuck in the mold of Pocket QBs with multiple progressions and deep drops, even though there aren't guys that who can do that to go around. The Pats change their system depending on their roster. The Seahawlks built an offense Russell Wilson can win with. Chip Kelly is making it work with Foles and Sanchez. Other than those three im not sure any other team does what they should be doing. Not so, mobile QBs just don't work without being able to play from the pocket. Plenty of coaches innovate, it works for awhile then defenses catch up and then we're are back to a more traditional offense because it still works the best. Edited February 15, 2015 by Buffalo Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Seriously, what are the colleges doing that isn't producing pro-style/pro ready QB's? Is their anyone in the CFL?? I was seriously thinking about that today... SMH So you think it's the colleges fault that they are very few NFL caliber QBs? Doesn't it make more sense that there are just very few NFL caliber QBs in general? Where do you think thd QBs in the CFL come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The difference between the college and pro level is pretty simple, and it comes down to the level of talent of players. Oregon is the perfect example. All during their regular season, they ran their offense quicker than pretty much every team they faced defensively and had a measurable amount of advantage with speed of their players to boot. Well, until they played Ohio State anyway, we know what happened. They ran the score up on pretty much everyone. In the NFL, there's no team that will simply have guys that for much of the offense are faster than the defense. Oregon isn't running plays for specific players. They're just doing it really fast. The NFL is much much more complex. Sorry to say, but except for a very limited number of guys like Andrew Luck that just have it coming out of college, it takes time to learn. CFL? Don't make me laugh. Might as well call it the Castoff Football League. That's about all it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 It seems like a few schools do it right. Stanford, the ones Yolo mentioned, but if I'm a QB who wants to play in the pro's (and play well), I've got very few options. Not some big names like USC, Florida, Florida state... It seems like there has to be a reason we haven't seen a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy, is their a college rule I don't know about that is keeping this spread stuff alive? Why would a good HS QB go to one of these schools that won't have him pro ready?in the immortal words of Charlie Sheen...winning. Also, Winston has been well schooled. I can't tell from your comment whether that's what you're saying or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st&ten Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Lots of good posts here. I think many young athletes are choosing baseball & basketball over football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Lots of good posts here. I think many young athletes are choosing baseball & basketball over football. Not baseball. Lacrosse and soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Agreed, maybe its a problem that the defenses aren't good enough to expose this, more of the good HS kids should play defense. I took a lot of pride in it myself. I think a resurgence of press man coverage coupled with relaxing the rules on PI and defensive holding calls is needed to push the college offenses away from the read option & spread stuff (due to more people on the line of scrimmage Are HS kids opting to play basketball, baseball and soccer rather than football due to injury concerns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 college coaches are more adept at making their system fit the players they have, where NFL coaches are set in their ways with 'their' system and almost refuse to build an offense around the players at their disposal. So the NFL is still stuck in the mold of Pocket QBs with multiple progressions and deep drops, even though there aren't guys that who can do that to go around. The Pats change their system depending on their roster. The Seahawlks built an offense Russell Wilson can win with. Chip Kelly is making it work with Foles and Sanchez. Other than those three im not sure any other team does what they should be doing. The Redskins did it well for a year with RGIII but the problem is, to quote the disgraced Warren Sapp "an NFL defense is the fastest adapting organism on the face of the earth." NFL defenses catch up. The talent level and coaching level on defense in the NFL far outstrips the talent and coaching on defense in college and as has already been said, so much of running a successful spread system relies on having bigger, quicker, stronger guys. There are teams out there that have tried to run the spread but it hasn't worked for them long term. Eventually in the NFL your QB is going to have to stand in there and deliver an accurate strike from the pocket... the reason that the Seahawks system works is because with Wilson there is that threat, he can stand in the pocket go through progressions and make a throw. He doesn't do it all that often, but the knowledge that he can means defenses have to defend that as well as they have to defend him escaping out of the pocket and extending plays with his legs or throwing on a half field read from the play-action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) They have been trying but if it doesn't make money then it doesn't make sense... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Experimental_Football_League Leagues like these can't go it alone. They are financially shaky to start. In the case of the FXFL, I had no idea they were even playing. The NFL has to have a sanctioned league for this to work. Edited February 16, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Colleges are running spread style, one read offences. As mentioned, this creates mismatches that can be exploited. But in the NFL, the defences are faster and more complex, meaning a QB has to got to second or third reads. When you've NEVER been asked to do that, it's difficult because there are footwork issues and pocket awareness issues the QB has never had to deal with. It's not an easy transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJDK Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) So you think it's the colleges fault that they are very few NFL caliber QBs? Doesn't it make more sense that there are just very few NFL caliber QBs in general? Where do you think thd QBs in the CFL come from? i'm saying college coaches aren't preparing these kids for the pro's. Are you saying they are? Are HS kids opting to play basketball, baseball and soccer rather than football due to injury concerns? pretty legit thought Edited February 17, 2015 by SJDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 i'm saying college coaches aren't preparing these kids for the pro's. Are you saying they are? Are you saying they should? They care about winning games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The NFL does need a farm system. Sometimes players have warts in their games that can be fixed or improved with playing. QB's and even most other positions don't really get developed if players struggle out the box. Playing time in the NFL is very limited, coaches and GM's are playing for their jobs now they don't have that much time to develop a player. A farm system would really help players get a second lease on life as well as improve the overall quality of the league (players improving their game with playing time will lead to better players in the league). Baseball has local A, AA, and AAA teams plus the Japan and various other international leagues. The NHL has the AHL and the NBA has various Euro leagues and has really started to develop the NBA D-League. The NFL use to have NFL Europe and the CFL still exists but the CFL isn't the same rules and the NFL teams have no direct relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The NFL does need a farm system. Sometimes players have warts in their games that can be fixed or improved with playing. QB's and even most other positions don't really get developed if players struggle out the box. Playing time in the NFL is very limited, coaches and GM's are playing for their jobs now they don't have that much time to develop a player. A farm system would really help players get a second lease on life as well as improve the overall quality of the league (players improving their game with playing time will lead to better players in the league). Baseball has local A, AA, and AAA teams plus the Japan and various other international leagues. The NHL has the AHL and the NBA has various Euro leagues and has really started to develop the NBA D-League. The NFL use to have NFL Europe and the CFL still exists but the CFL isn't the same rules and the NFL teams have no direct relationship. What you say may be true, but why would they? We watch. We buy their merchandise. We go to games in droves. Why spend the money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 They have been trying but if it doesn't make money then it doesn't make sense...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Experimental_Football_League If the NFL can make money from guys running around cones in shorts, they could sell a Spring Minor League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think having a real NFL coaching staff this year, plus the best qb coach in the league, will help EJ. I did not think he was bad before he got hurt, frankly for his experience level. He doesn't get hurt in 2013 in Cleveland, and we're what, 3-2 and he's on his way. that injury was a big setback for him. I don't see them bringing anyone in that is great, plus ditching the college coaches for real NFL coaches will give EJ a fresh start. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 it makes sense to have more than a handful of quality QBs in the League. Baseball and hockey do it, the NFL can too. I'm not talking about in Europe, I'm talking about each team with their own team located in a city nearby by so fans can go see their team of the future. We could have one in Rochester or Hamilton or Syracuse, it would be awesome to watch future Bills develop and then move on to the Bills. Running in the fall is not smart because it makes for football over-saturation. Put it in the spring when we need our football fix. I have thought for a while that the NFL really needs a farm system. From the team side, the advantage is player development. Great players like Kurt Warner and even Jim Kelly and Steve Young arguably benefited for their time playing in Arena League or USFL before coming to the NFL. Didn't our own beloved FredEx play NFL Europe? If the NFL is supporting a farm system, they would get to call the shots as far as what type of offense and defense was being run so that the players who emerge are really NFL ready. From the player side, if we look at the baseball farm system, from talking to a guy whose son was drafted by the Giants, there is a real progression of how they take care of players. The lowest level, short season A, the kids actually live with families (good reason for this - see below). They have some money to spend and someone looking out for their interests. They make steadily more money as they progress through the system, until by AAA they're making decent money. So they learn to handle money progressively, its not like the NFL where the players go from "broke" to "whoa, how can anyone spend all this?" in minutes. And it's not "all or nothing" on the skill set. They get to focus on baseball and on improving, it's not like "don't quite have it after college? too bad so sad" in the NFL. In the baseball farm teams, talented kids right out of high school or sometimes even in highschool (which is why the lower levels are set up to be so protective and put the kids in families etc) can just play. Kids who want to play baseball and show talent don't have to pretend to be college students for 3-4 years and they get to start learning how to handle money besides. From the college side, colleges have become a de facto farm teams for the NFL. This means scholarships and resources are going to kids who are no way prepared for college and who couldn't really benefit even if they weren't locked into a training and practice schedule that makes academic success challenging for an excellent student. The scholarships are a joke, some of these guys can't speak English let alone write it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 @ProFootballTalk: Mike Mayock: Brett Hundley, Bryce Petty show difficulty in evaluating spread quarterbacks http://t.co/r99eaOuxEF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 For anyone hoping that college ball changes for the benefit of the NFL...why would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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