Mayock's take on EJ Manuel

[DOGNESS]

I like Mayock (especially in comparison to Kiper) but let's remember that he had Geno Smith #1 ahead of EJ

That clearly proves Mayock knows absolutely nothing about the game. He probably couldnt even tell you the difference between a basketball, a hockey puck, a baseball, and a football.

[bladiebla]

I like Mayock (especially in comparison to Kiper) but let's remember that he had Geno Smith #1 ahead of EJ

 

And for good reason, Geno Smith was the QB in that draft that was most ready to play right away. He always followed that up by saying he thought EJ had more upside. I don't get the Mayock hate, he's been right about our drafts for years. Sure he misses on players, but so do all the NFL teams so in that regard Mayock is as much an inside line to player evaluation we as TV viewers are going to get. For the record he was raving about our draft this year, consistently named us when asked who had the best draft so far as he did last year. Only pick he wasnt completly onboard with but still saw as a solid pick was the Preston Brown pick.

[PearlHowardman]

EJ Manuel had three injuries to his knees in his rookie season.

 

THREE!!

 

Hello?!?!

 

The guy is an injury prone china doll.

[thebandit27]

EJ Manuel had three injuries to his knees in his rookie season.

 

THREE!!

 

Hello?!?!

 

The guy is an injury prone china doll.

 

How do knee injuries (it was actually 2, one of which was re-aggravated late) make a guy injury prone?

 

We're not talking about Kevin Kolb here.

[chris heff]

EJ Manuel had three injuries to his knees in his rookie season.

 

THREE!!

 

Hello?!?!

 

The guy is an injury prone china doll.

Please Google Phil Simms. Then tell me if you would take his record.

[PearlHowardman]

Please Google Phil Simms. Then tell me if you would take his record.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Simms

 

Simms won his first five starts of his rookie year. He led the team to a 6–4 record as a starter, throwing for 1,743 yards and 13 touchdown passes and was named to the NFL All Rookie Team. He was runner-up in 1979 for Rookie of the Year, losing out to future teammate, Ottis Anderson.

[Thirty Year Fan]

With no first rounder next year ,Whaley is rolling the dice that E J takes off this year.

[chris heff]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Simms

 

Simms won his first five starts of his rookie year. He led the team to a 6–4 record as a starter, throwing for 1,743 yards and 13 touchdown passes and was named to the NFL All Rookie Team. He was runner-up in 1979 for Rookie of the Year, losing out to future teammate, Ottis Anderson.

You conveniently left out the part about the knee injury, the separated shoulder, the compound fracture of thumb on throwing hand and being benched in favor of Scott Brunner.

[White Linen]

This is why I supported and still support the pick of Manuel. "If I was going to make a mistake, it was going to do it with a big athletic kid with arm talent".

 

The reason I subscribe to this way of thinking is taking the reverse angle. Instead of hoping a kid like Wilson, Barkely, Ponder, Manziel, Glennon, Tebow, Sanchez, and many others can overcome major physical inadequacies - you should evaluate kids with the most physical ability and if the mental analysis is close to matching - draft him.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Triple Threat

[playman]

I'm pulling for EJ but the jury is still out on him. And while I like Mayock, he's not infallible. He wasn't exactly sold on Cam Newton when he was being drafted.

 

http://profootballta...he-wants-to-be/

 

or the IN jury

 

but in case he can stay healthy we will see some pretty good play. i hope.

[Luxy312]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Phil_Simms

 

Simms won his first five starts of his rookie year. He led the team to a 6–4 record as a starter, throwing for 1,743 yards and 13 touchdown passes and was named to the NFL All Rookie Team.He was runner-up in 1979 for Rookie of the Year, losing out to future teammate, Ottis Anderson.

 

Gotta love statistics. Figures lie and liars figure. If he was 5-0 in his first 5 starts, then that means he was 1-4 over the next 5 games. Are we talking about the same guy that was able to complete only 4 of his 14 seasons in the NFL?

[chris heff]

 

 

Gotta love statistics. Figures lie and liars figure. If he was 5-0 in his first 5 starts, then that means he was 1-4 over the next 5 games. Are we talking about the same guy that was able to complete only 4 of his 14 seasons in the NFL?

Yes that guy, the injury prone bust, that managed to get two Super Bowl rings and be named Super Bowl MVP.

[Luxy312]

Yes that guy, the injury prone bust, that managed to get two Super Bowl rings and be named Super Bowl MVP.

 

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic. Dan Marino is 100X the quarterback that Simms was. When all is said and done, it takes a TEAM to win it all. Simms wasn't all that. Historic version of Joe Flacco. SNORE!

 

Adding to that, let's just look at his "wonderful" Superbowl season. 21 TD passes and 22 interceptions. Add 9 fumbles, of which 6 were lost. I'm sure Joe Morris and his 1,500 rushing yards had little to do with their success, nor Lawrence Taylor and his 20.5 sacks. The Giants gave Phil Simms a Superbowl ring and not the other way around. You can actually see a lot by simply looking, or simply put your head in the ground like an ostrich. I choose the former.

[K-9]

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic. Dan Marino is 100X the quarterback that Simms was. When all is said and done, it takes a TEAM to win it all. Simms wasn't all that. Historic version of Joe Flacco. SNORE!

 

Adding to that, let's just look at his "wonderful" Superbowl season. 21 TD passes and 22 interceptions. Add 9 fumbles, of which 6 were lost. I'm sure Joe Morris and his 1,500 rushing yards had little to do with their success, nor Lawrence Taylor and his 20.5 sacks. The Giants gave Phil Simms a Superbowl ring and not the other way around. You can actually see a lot by simply looking, or simply put your head in the ground like an ostrich. I choose the former.

 

Aside from a couple Pro Bowl seasons, Simms' career was kind of pedestrian. We all agree on that.

 

But his performance in SBXXI was one for the ages. To say the Giants gave him a SB ring is to totally disregard his contribution in that game. It was perhaps the greatest QB performance in a SB in history. And that's saying something when you think of some of the great QBs that had great games in the SB.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[chris heff]

 

 

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic. Dan Marino is 100X the quarterback that Simms was. When all is said and done, it takes a TEAM to win it all. Simms wasn't all that. Historic version of Joe Flacco. SNORE!

 

Adding to that, let's just look at his "wonderful" Superbowl season. 21 TD passes and 22 interceptions. Add 9 fumbles, of which 6 were lost. I'm sure Joe Morris and his 1,500 rushing yards had little to do with their success, nor Lawrence Taylor and his 20.5 sacks. The Giants gave Phil Simms a Superbowl ring and not the other way around. You can actually see a lot by simply looking, or simply put your head in the ground like an ostrich. I choose the former.

My original response was to Pearl and his position (along with many others) that Manuel is injury prone. Simms was considered injury prone, therefore he is a good example. I'm not extolling Simms virtues, however the fact remains he has two Rings.

 

There are a lot of great QBs without Super Bowl rings. There are a lot of ok QBs with rings. Super Bowl Rings are relivent because that is why they play the games. If you could trade the Bills entire 1990 team and staff for the Giants, which resulted in a Super Bowl win, would you do it? Or would you rather four Super Bowl loses with a HOF QB?

[PearlHowardman]

You conveniently left out the part about the knee injury, the separated shoulder, the compound fracture of thumb on throwing hand and being benched in favor of Scott Brunner.

 

In Simms' rookie year?

 

Gotta love statistics. Figures lie and liars figure. If he was 5-0 in his first 5 starts, then that means he was 1-4 over the next 5 games. Are we talking about the same guy that was able to complete only 4 of his 14 seasons in the NFL?

 

Phil Simms was runner up for Rookie of The Year. Where was EJ Manuel in the ROTY rankings last year?

[chris heff]

 

 

In Simms' rookie year?

 

 

 

Phil Simms was runner up for Rookie of The Year. Where was EJ Manuel in the ROTY rankings last year?

No, second, third and fourth. Your contention is that Manuel is injury prone, which by definition would mean more injuries in the future. Phil Simms had three major season ending injuries in four years. All three of those injuries were worse than the two, not three (first and third were the same injury) that Manuel suffered. I lived in NYC at that time, Simms was considered an injury prone bust.

[chris heff]

 

 

In Simms' rookie year?

 

 

 

Phil Simms was runner up for Rookie of The Year. Where was EJ Manuel in the ROTY rankings last year?

And then Simms had three season ending injuries and regressed to the point that he was benched in favor of Scott Brunner.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

 

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic.

 

That's an interesting take, considering that's what every single player who has ever played or will play the game is playing for. Isn't winning Super Bowls the whole point?

 

Ask Jim Kelly or Dan Marino and I guarantee they regret not winning one.

[Bangarang]

I'm actually counting the Atlanta game as two comeback wins (one in regulation and one in OT) given back by the dropsy twins.

 

As I've stated many times, rookie QB performance hasn't evolved at the same pace as fan expectations. Especially for those QBs everyone knew needed a redshirt year.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

How can you give EJ credit for a comeback in OT?

 

The ball that Chandler fumbled wasn't even in Atlanta territory. The play started on our own 23 yard line and Chandler fumbled on our 43 yard line. There was still a ways to go if you want to consider that a combeback or game winning drive.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Bangarang

[DCBongo]

Right now, EJ seems to have all the tools needed for success. Just like in cooking, you cannot tell how good the cookies are gonna taste until the come out of the oven. Come August and we look at camp and the per-season will we begin to see if EJ is the QB for now and the future. As a Bills fan, I hope to G-D he is, and if he's not, he ought to be cut and bring in someone who can. We do not need the second coming of Kelly; we need some who can competently manage the game, make accurate throws and not make stupid mistakes.

[San-O]

It's simple really. Everyone wants to be able to say "I told you so." The odds are always higher a player will not be great so this is making the easy bet.

 

What are you MRS. E.J. or something? Why always the crusade?

 

If the kid could actually stay on the field for more than a few games, it might help? Yes?

[thebandit27]

 

 

What are you MRS. E.J. or something? Why always the crusade?

 

If the kid could actually stay on the field for more than a few games, it might help? Yes?

 

To be fair, the anti-EJ crowd is making the knee injury issue out to be more than it's been. He missed 6 games and half the preseason; significant for sure, but it's not as though he can't get on the field the way some folks profess.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

What are you MRS. E.J. or something? Why always the crusade?

 

If the kid could actually stay on the field for more than a few games, it might help? Yes?

My crusade is against people feel compelled to spin everything to the worst possible outcome. EJ is a question mark. He's not a bust yet though some folks have him pegged that way already. My only take is some people want to be "right" early.

[San-O]

To be fair, the anti-EJ crowd is making the knee injury issue out to be more than it's been. He missed 6 games and half the preseason; significant for sure, but it's not as though he can't get on the field the way some folks profess.

 

Agreed. Let's hope can can stay on the field and make it through the season so at least they will know what they have. My issue is with the apologists who blindly

maintain everything is great when it's obvious this far, based in actual performance and nothing else, there are major concerns regarding his health and ability as neither have been on display more than a few games.

[Hplarrm]

 

My crusade is against people feel compelled to spin everything to the worst possible outcome. EJ is a question mark. He's not a bust yet though some folks have him pegged that way already. My only take is some people want to be "right" early.

Exactly! One of the few pieces of conventional wisdom that I actually find to be correct is that one should wait to see how three full seasons of play turn out in terms of actual results before a player is declared a bust or a god.

 

Mike Williams was an immediate starter and looked like a solid prospect after 1 year (only to become a clear bust) and Eric Moulds had two poor production years and then became a legit Pro Bowl and the acknowledged best athlete on the Bills for years.

 

We will almost certainly need to see two more years of his play before drawing a legit conclusion on EJ

[San-O]

My crusade is against people feel compelled to spin everything to the worst possible outcome. EJ is a question mark. He's not a bust yet though some folks have him pegged that way already. My only take is some people want to be "right" early.

 

Quit spinning the BEST possible outcome and let's be objective: He has been injured early and often including two "minor" knee procedures I believe. His play

when on the field has been sub-par to this point and he didn't even outplay Thad Lewis by much, if any, IMO.

 

It's hard to say he's a bust when he hasn't made it through a training camp or a regular season, however that result is without question staring this team right in

the face if he goes down again or plays poorly again, or shows little improvement. IMO.

 

He has proved nothing to me at this point.

 

Exactly! One of the few pieces of conventional wisdom that I actually find to be correct is that one should wait to see how three full seasons of play turn out in terms of actual results before a player is declared a bust or a god.

 

Mike Williams was an immediate starter and looked like a solid prospect after 1 year (only to become a clear bust) and Eric Moulds had two poor production years and then became a legit Pro Bowl and the acknowledged best athlete on the Bills for years.

 

We will almost certainly need to see two more years of his play before drawing a legit conclusion on EJ

 

Disagree. Like Fitz, and Trent, and J.P., and all the others? They have no backup plan other than Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel, which is scary.

[PromoTheRobot]

Quit spinning the BEST possible outcome and let's be objective: He has been injured early and often including two "minor" knee procedures I believe. His play

when on the field has been sub-par to this point and he didn't even outplay Thad Lewis by much, if any, IMO.

 

It's hard to say he's a bust when he hasn't made it through a training camp or a regular season, however that result is without question staring this team right in

the face if he goes down again or plays poorly again, or shows little improvement. IMO.

 

He has proved nothing to me at this point.

All you are doing is listing the bad stuff. He did good stuff too. And even if he played poorly he'd shake it off and lead a TD drive late. Also getting injured is bad luck, not an indicator of his ability. Eric Wood had season ending injuries twice. You want to get rid of him too?

[K-9]

How can you give EJ credit for a comeback in OT?

 

The ball that Chandler fumbled wasn't even in Atlanta territory. The play started on our own 23 yard line and Chandler fumbled on our 43 yard line. There was still a ways to go if you want to consider that a combeback or game winning drive.

 

Because I'm convinced he would have gotten us the extra 25 yards needed for a FG.

 

And also just because I want to.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

 

 

Agreed. Let's hope can can stay on the field and make it through the season so at least they will know what they have. My issue is with the apologists who blindly

maintain everything is great when it's obvious this far, based in actual performance and nothing else, there are major concerns regarding his health and ability as neither have been on display more than a few games.

 

I wouldn't say "major", as I'd probably use "considerable" as a more appropriate word.

 

Other than that we're on the same page.

[playman]

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic. Dan Marino is 100X the quarterback that Simms was. When all is said and done, it takes a TEAM to win it all. Simms wasn't all that. Historic version of Joe Flacco. SNORE!

 

Adding to that, let's just look at his "wonderful" Superbowl season. 21 TD passes and 22 interceptions. Add 9 fumbles, of which 6 were lost. I'm sure Joe Morris and his 1,500 rushing yards had little to do with their success, nor Lawrence Taylor and his 20.5 sacks. The Giants gave Phil Simms a Superbowl ring and not the other way around. You can actually see a lot by simply looking, or simply put your head in the ground like an ostrich. I choose the former.

 

wich is exactly the point. get a team with wich almost any qb can win it all. seriously, the seahaws haven´t won it because of wilson. he didn´t hurt their case, but he hasn´t won it by himself either.

Edited May 18, 2014 by playman

[Beerball]

Superbowl rings are an irrelevant statistic. Dan Marino is 100X the quarterback that Simms was.

Not hardly. Lack of a SB win keeps Marino out of the "best QB of all time" talk.

 

We will almost certainly need to see two more years of his play before drawing a legit conclusion on EJ

So, it's 48 games?

 

We still owe a bunch to JP, Trent and Fitz don't we?

[DC Tom]

So, it's 48 games?

 

Yep. About a thousand snaps to see if a QB is developing in to something good or not.

[Pills -N- Bills]

You wrote 2 1/4 sentences bitching about what someone posted on a forum that is here to create discussion to prove what? Again?

 

Ever heard of the phrase "Hop Off"?

[BackInDaDay]

Personally, I find EJ's best quality is his desire to improve and his willingness to be coached up. Adding that quality to a big, strong kid who has the ability to translate his preparation to solid game play - and it's hard for an old pessimistic fan like myself, not to like his chances of succeeding.

[jaybee]

Personally, I find EJ's best quality is his desire to improve and his willingness to be coached up. Adding that quality to a big, strong kid who has the ability to translate his preparation to solid game play - and it's hard for an old pessimistic fan like myself, not to like his chances of succeeding.

 

Nothing here to add to that logic. Hey, whether you love em or hate em, we have to route for him. I have a gut feeling he's going to surprise us this year. I'm not right very often but I hope I am this time.

[Beerball]

Ever heard of the phrase "Hop Off"?

Ever heard the phrase "what's good for the goose...?"

 

Yep. About a thousand snaps to see if a QB is developing in to something good or not.

Is that 48 games worth? Wake me up when it's time to switch from JP to Trent. I want to be there for the good times.

[HOUSE]

I was impressed...

[Hplarrm]

 

 

Quit spinning the BEST possible outcome and let's be objective: He has been injured early and often including two "minor" knee procedures I believe. His play

when on the field has been sub-par to this point and he didn't even outplay Thad Lewis by much, if any, IMO.

 

It's hard to say he's a bust when he hasn't made it through a training camp or a regular season, however that result is without question staring this team right in

the face if he goes down again or plays poorly again, or shows little improvement. IMO.

 

He has proved nothing to me at this point.

 

 

 

Disagree. Like Fitz, and Trent, and J.P., and all the others? They have no backup plan other than Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel, which is scary.

 

Nope. Think about the real world. It took a couple of years for Moulds to be developed and for him to develop himself before he became the consistent Pro Bowl level player he was.

 

All I am arguing is that you do not panic and declare EJ a bust when while he clearly has not proven himself to be a franchise player he has:

 

1. Demonstrated in college he can be a winner and a quality leader with some positive aspects (mobility, strong arm, good college level game manager) but clearly he needs work and coaching. Like Mayock said MManual is not about immediate production (even though he actually turned out to be more productive than most other rookie QB like Geno Smith).

 

2. As a pro he demonstrated that though not consistent yet, he is capable of leading a team to a win at times (no small feat for a rookie QB leading a not very good team. Is he a definite player? Not yet. However, is this rookie a keeper or someone who you should panic and spend more resources in the next futile effort to find a QB who can start and win immediately with this team (btw who doyou think this fantasy player is)?

 

3. I think there is a plan B which is:

 

A. Know that Plan A (Go with Manual as the choice with the highest upside of the 2013 QBs did not prove realistically unachievable results with this very incomplete team, but he showed enough though he clearly is not there yet, it would simply be bad football to panic and not build the team up whether it is gonna be around him or someone else.

 

B. Plan B cannot be to find another starter level player to be our back-up (like lets get one starter level player first) but we are looking for a player to fill the Frank Reich role for the Bills. Can Thad Lewis start and win probably a max of three games for you if needed? I think he might be able to do this.

 

Plan C.- Take a flyer on a disaster QB who almost certainly will not work (Tuel) but most important have some cap room so if Manual does not fulfill or gets hurt, you can buy an FA QB for your reinforced team (Watkins, et al this year) to try to make the playoffs next year after Manual fails to do so this year.

 

Even with this scenario, I am reluctant to declare Manual a bust unless he is reall6y bad in his second year. Was Manual not good enough in his first year? Yep, he is not the playoff level performer we need.

 

Was Manual so bad in his first year we should panic and go casting about for someone else to meet some impossible goal?

Nope.

 

What do you propose we do?

 

 

Not hardly. Lack of a SB win keeps Marino out of the "best QB of all time" talk.

 

So, it's 48 games?

 

We still owe a bunch to JP, Trent and Fitz don't we?

 

Nope. Think about the real world. It took a couple of years for Moulds to be developed and for him to develop himself before he became the consistent Pro Bowl level player he was.

 

All I am arguing is that you do not panic and declare EJ a bust when while he clearly has not proven himself to be a franchise player he has:

 

1. Demonstrated in college he can be a winner and a quality leader with some positive aspects (mobility, strong arm, good college level game manager) but clearly he needs work and coaching. Like Mayock said MManual is not about immediate production (even though he actually turned out to be more productive than most other rookie QB like Geno Smith).

 

2. As a pro he demonstrated that though not consistent yet, he is capable of leading a team to a win at times (no small feat for a rookie QB leading a not very good team. Is he a definite player? Not yet. However, is this rookie a keeper or someone who you should panic and spend more resources in the next futile effort to find a QB who can start and win immediately with this team (btw who doyou think this fantasy player is)?

 

3. I think there is a plan B which is:

 

A. Know that Plan A (Go with Manual as the choice with the highest upside of the 2013 QBs did not prove realistically unachievable results with this very incomplete team, but he showed enough though he clearly is not there yet, it would simply be bad football to panic and not build the team up whether it is gonna be around him or someone else.

 

B. Plan B cannot be to find another starter level player to be our back-up (like lets get one starter level player first) but we are looking for a player to fill the Frank Reich role for the Bills. Can Thad Lewis start and win probably a max of three games for you if needed? I think he might be able to do this.

 

Plan C.- Take a flyer on a disaster QB who almost certainly will not work (Tuel) but most important have some cap room so if Manual does not fulfill or gets hurt, you can buy an FA QB for your reinforced team (Watkins, et al this year) to try to make the playoffs next year after Manual fails to do so this year.

 

Even with this scenario, I am reluctant to declare Manual a bust unless he is reall6y bad in his second year. Was Manual not good enough in his first year? Yep, he is not the playoff level performer we need.

 

Was Manual so bad in his first year we should panic and go casting about for someone else to meet some impossible goal?

Nope.

 

What do you propose we do?

[Solomon Grundy]

 

All you are doing is listing the bad stuff. He did good stuff too. And even if he played poorly he'd shake it off and lead a TD drive late. Also getting injured is bad luck, not an indicator of his ability. Eric Wood had season ending injuries twice. You want to get rid of him too?

 

Promo you are a god on this blog!