Wasn't that long ago ...

[SDS]

Scott, I respect you a lot...in all honesty, if one of the rest of us peons dredged up a post of, let's say, John Wawrows, that was months old, to specifically take a shot at him for being wrong

 

..........would that be OK with you, or would it result in the peon-in-question getting some kind of discipline from a mod?

 

I'm just asking for some clarity on acceptable behavior here (not the original critical post, or the original response to it, but the part about bringing it up again months after the fact).

 

That is not an answerable question. It is all in the specifics as I detailed previously.

 

If John went off on you in such a manner, not by questioning your particular opinion on a specific subject, but questioning your very livelihood and how you perform your job, then well, I suspect John would own his words and wouldn't care if reminded of them. Then again, I don't think John would express himself like that to a fellow poster. Which is really the point.

 

Again, neither John nor PTR has a problem with this. I suspect no one else really should either.

[Bob in STL]

So how about those Chargers?

 

Bills will win this week, 24 - 17, as CJ Spiller continues his breakout.

 

Flame me if I am wrong but please remember that the statute of limitations on pro football game predictions is one week (unless followed by a bye week, then two weeks is allowed).

[PromoTheRobot]

but maybe that's the issue...

I think this is more the case. I honestly did not have jw in mind when I wrote that post. I was thinking more of the Sullys, Sal Maioranas & Leo Roths who don't hide their contempt for the team. In fact I always considered jw as fair and thorough reporter. But I can see, upon re-reading, that me asking for jw's input could be construed as me lumping him in with the snark meisters. And of course, John has to work with these people, they are his colleagues, so it's understandable that he would adopt Chan Gailey's "you dog one of us, you dog all of us" mantra.

 

That said, I stand by my post. My criticism of the media comes from a desire for real analysis of the Bills and not platitudes ala "Ralph is Cheap." Some of you know I'm a big fan of Coach Sal because I enjoy the insight he brings as a former coach, and his contact with players. I wish more reporters were like him.

 

PTR

Edited December 6, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

 

 

Which goes to show that the media (not John personally!!!) is like a rear view mirror. They are great at telling you what just happened. Not so great at what will happen.

 

 

 

Which wouldn't be a problem if all the talking heads weren't so convinced of their status as prognosticators.

 

Huh? What board are you taking about? This goes on here all day every day...lol

 

Unwritten rules get broken. In any case, it's pretty classless.

[Ozymandius]

So how about those Chargers?

 

Bills will win this week, 24 - 17, as CJ Spiller continues his breakout.

 

Flame me if I am wrong but please remember that the statute of limitations on pro football game predictions is one week (unless followed by a bye week, then two weeks is allowed).

 

The Chargers and Jaguars beat reporters are all counting their money from yet another fruitful week placing bets related to their teams.

 

Being beat reporters, they always know what's going to happen.

 

Some of the richest people on earth are NFL beat reporters. They just dress like slobs so we don't panhandle them.

[John Cocktosten]

I'm just asking for some clarity on acceptable behavior here (not the original critical post, or the original response to it, but the part about bringing it up again months after the fact).

 

This is what happens when dodge ball is taken out of school.

[NoSaint]

Which wouldn't be a problem if all the talking heads weren't so convinced of their status as prognosticators.

 

 

 

Unwritten rules get broken. In any case, it's pretty classless.

 

To be honest, even the written rules are pretty spotty. I'm pretty sure no threads about football during football is about the strictest I've seen.

 

I always forget to start my insert two random teams live thread 5 minutes before kickoff and get shutdown whenever anything cool happens!

[GG]

t. My criticism of the media comes from a desire for real analysis of the Bills and not platitudes ala "Ralph is Cheap." Some of you know I'm a big fan of Coach Sal because I enjoy the insight he brings as a former coach, and his contact with players. I wish more reporters were like him.

 

PTR

 

Ahem, any real analysis of the Bills that ignores the shortcomings of the owner is an exercise in blatant homerism, which real reporters do not engage in.

 

And as for those trolls coming out of the woodwork after 8 weeks? Would those be the same who warned that no matter how smart Gaileyt may be, it's impossible to outscheme the rest of the league for an entire season when your team has inferior talent. It only took four games for teams to break down the film. Put eight guys in the box and focus on Fred Jackson, take away the short routes and not worry about the long ball because there isn't a single player you should be afraid of. Not too difficult to diagnose, and this was pointed out early on. Never mind questions about the defense that was giving up 500 yds/game. And if you really want objectivity, read what the pros wrote in preseason - you'd see that it was pretty much spot on. This team was improving, but the way it was put together left absolutely no margin for error, and they still had among the worst talent in AFC.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

To be honest, even the written rules are pretty spotty. I'm pretty sure no threads about football during football is about the strictest I've seen.

 

 

Which is one thing I like about this board. There isn't a glut of specific conduct rules (that I'm aware of anyway). Rather, posters are trusted with the efficacy of being respectful.

 

So long as things don't get overtly discourteous or profane, everybody's opinion is welcome. In my opinion, dredging the archives to create "gotcha" moments is in the nebulous gray area of discourtesy. To be fair, PTR's original post falls in the same gray area.

 

However, the man himself (SDS) has spoken and has no problem with this incidence, so maybe I just have a stick up my arse.

Edited December 6, 2011 by SageAgainstTheMachine

[Delete This Account]

this wasn't dredging. PTR's thread has bugged me for some time, and i found it evident back then that there was nothing i could write that could counter the wave of enthusiasm sweeping this board headlong toward the Super Bowl. ... i exaggerate just a little bit. but that's where many posts here during that whirlwind first month were pointing.

as i had written, i preferred to start judging a season by its midway point, not one game or one month.

and as much as i began buying into the 5-2 start, there were warning signs along the way.

 

i have no issue with PTR or anyone being a root-root-root for the home team fan. and i really don't have any ill-will toward PTR. he has a right to express his opinions as much as i have a right to exprss mine.

but in a week in which we in the business lost a respected colleague, it struck me how little respect we get sometimes -- particularly from some on this board. and it also struck me how often times "the locals" get it right.

 

hey, criticism comes with the business. but this one thread stood out for how it called out "the locals" (i'm one of them, and i'm the only one here with a voice choosing to stick up for us) as being blind, naive, lazy and lacking any reasonable function beyond expressing wet farts (i'm paraphrasing here, using poetic license, but that's how it read to me).

this isn't loyalty out of loyalty's sake. these are friends, with whom i happen to compete against.

so, yeah, i'm going to take a little offense on occasion.

 

 

the nutty thing is, i'm more encouraged about next season now that the Bills are developing depth and learning another lesson -- maybe one too many -- about what it takes to win.

and i still think this team has about 2 more wins still left in it.

 

i could be wrong.

 

jw

[Kevin]

I joined this forum so that I could interact with other Bills fans and talk Bills football, and maybe get some more in depth knowledge from people that actually get to go to the games. When I joined in 2008 I had never heard of John Wawrow, Tim Graham, and Lori Chase. However because of this forum I got to know the work of John, Tim, and Lori and thoroughly enjoy their writings whether I agree with it or not.

 

Is it just me or has the overall attitude of this forum taken a drastic turn for the worse? In my short time here I've seen some pretty respectful posters basically get run out of here by disrespectful posters. People like Tim Graham, and Lori.

 

I mean, for Christ's sake, there are threads in which posters are wishing for Ralph Wilson's death! What the hell is wrong with us?

 

Maybe WE ALL should take a step back (myself included) and start treating everyone on this forum with a little more respect?

[thepizzaking]

I don't want to weigh in on this current debate, but how was Tim Graham run out of here? If I recall correctly, someone challenged him with the likes of "I don't believe you, unless you reveal your sources." He took that as the most offensive insult in the history of man, and just left because of that. I may be remembering it wrong, but I do remember clearly thinking at the time "wow, that was pretty sensitive." Not that he had to reveal his sources or anything, but he could have just said "no thanks."

[bills44]

What a !@#$ing douchey post.

 

Pathetic.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

PTR:

it was the vigorous bile, and anger posed in your thread -- calling us all out as being unprofessionals, lacking vision and perspective -- in which i took offense to.

this is not about good news or bad news. i was actually on board with this team at 4-1. and yet, back then, there was no pleasing some on this board when anything hinting at being negative was broached. and, if i recall, you were the one leading the anti-media charge.

 

sure, some consider this a classless act. i've been wrong. and i'll be wrong again. but to go to the extent that you did in opening this initial thread was both, in my opinion, very much overboard and classless in itself. you opened yourself up to criticism in part because you've spent much time on this board criticizing the media for being amateurish, blind and overly negative.

 

and yet, you continue to bang this drum that bad news is good news. no it's not.

i personally enjoyed covering the Sabres two runs to the Eastern Conference finals.

and i had a sense of excitement when the Bills got off to their fast start and actually wondered if what i saw initially was somehow wrong. ... turns out, some of the media's intitial impressions were correct.

trouble is, you'd never give the media any credit.

 

and that's why i started this thread.

 

jw

 

Then you should be the first to eat your words after you personally attacked me for saying the Bills defensive yardage fest early would cost us dearly. And yet, oddly enough, suddenly you are on the side of those who saw through the 4-1 record??? I have a big huge flag waving for you with two letters on them, B and S. At least PTR is man enough to stand behind his words and not flip flop to suit an argument. Poor form... poor form.

[8-8 Forever?]

I like what Chan and Nix are doing. Its tough when you lose a lot of key guys (McGee, Wood, Jackson, Bell/Hairston, Easley/Parrish/Jones) when your depth is still not set. If these guys can stay healthy next year and draft another 4 starters as they did this year, we will be just fine.

[Delete This Account]

Then you should be the first to eat your words after you personally attacked me for saying the Bills defensive yardage fest early would cost us dearly. And yet, oddly enough, suddenly you are on the side of those who saw through the 4-1 record??? I have a big huge flag waving for you with two letters on them, B and S. At least PTR is man enough to stand behind his words and not flip flop to suit an argument. Poor form... poor form.

i did what now?

 

from what i can tell, you're referring to the thread in which you questioned someone that the Bills wre not in the bottom 5 in defense.

i responded that the Bills were ranked 27th, which puts them in the bottom five. in retrospect, i was wrong. that put them in the bottom six. and yet how this counts as a "personal attack" is beyond me.

 

jw

[mead107]

As one fantastic poster would say ---19 and 0 next year baby.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

can we get back to discussing football? Seems like we have forgotten what this forum should be about

[Armchair GM]

hey, PTR:

hope all's well. i seem to remember something you posted a little while ago that went something like this.

 

----

 

well, well, well

 

Posted 12 September 2011 - 12:18 AM

At the risk of starting another conflagration, I really want to know what the Buffalo sports media does when they are supposedly covering the team? Maybe John Wawrow could tell us.

 

I can understand the national media has 31 other teams to cover and the Bills have been such an afterthought that few if any would bother to take a close look at us. But how do reporters, who's job it is to cover camp and practices, talk to players and coaches, etc, be so dead wrong on this team's prospects going into the season? Seriously, if all of you are so "shocked" by what you saw, what the f**k do you do all day?

 

I do have a theory. Things have been so bad with the Bills the last 11 years that most of the press, thinking they are being unbiased, dismiss any good signs out of hand as being a mirage. And with the head gremlin Jerry Sullivan leading the charge, all the other reporters fall in line behind him.

 

This is the only scenario I can imagine because the Bills didn't just expose the KC Chiefs today, they exposed the Buffalo News and WGR for short-changing local sports fans.

 

PTR

 

---

 

um ... well, ah ... in retrospect ... i think your theory was, well, disproved.

 

jw

 

Well, aren't you the consummate pro, JW!? Your arrogance is surpassed only by your idiocy in bashing an amateur's 3 month old post, while in the interim this team has been decimated by injury...again. Further, please point out any print that brought the apparent ineptitude of our defensive coordinator to light. I bet you can't as all the bills Bashing by the media at the beginning of the season was on the talent level of the players...Obviously, I can't say for sure, but I can easily see 3 more wins if not for an extremely poor defensive scheme. Who, you ask? 1.) Cincinnati - George decides it not a good Idea to blitz a rookie QB coming off a game where he was sacked 5 times and threw 2 picks; pretty obvious to me that we should have blitzed the H. E. double hockey sticks out them and won that game easily; 2.) Giants - at the point in the season, the giants weren't playing all that well & EVERYONE knows Eli chokes under pressure, but again, no blitzing...at all; 3.) 2nd game against the "Prop" Jets - Mark Sanchez...enough said.

 

Admittedly, I'm a total Bills homer, one of the crazies...but, this "I told you so," childish, "I'm always right," crap is simply distasteful.

[John Cocktosten]

i did what now?

 

from what i can tell, you're referring to the thread in which you questioned someone that the Bills wre not in the bottom 5 in defense.

i responded that the Bills were ranked 27th, which puts them in the bottom five. in retrospect, i was wrong. that put them in the bottom six. and yet how this counts as a "personal attack" is beyond me.

 

jw

JW

 

You're just going to keep running into the brick wall otherwise known as the TBD Pollyannas. It doesn't matter if you apply logic, past history or blatant facts (like the 27th ranked defense), you are wrong because you are not being a proper fan if you're "negative" (even though objectivity is a pillar of journalism). There is a complete lack of objectivity with these posters and Promotional Robot is the ring leader.

 

You will be best served if you let this thread die and leave the Pollyannas alone on Shutter Island.

[PromoTheRobot]

Can we close this thread before anymore regrettable posts are made?

 

PTR

[GG]

Well, aren't you the consummate pro, JW!? Your arrogance is surpassed only by your idiocy in bashing an amateur's 3 month old post, while in the interim this team has been decimated by injury...again. Further, please point out any print that brought the apparent ineptitude of our defensive coordinator to light. I bet you can't as all the bills Bashing by the media at the beginning of the season was on the talent level of the players...Obviously, I can't say for sure, but I can easily see 3 more wins if not for an extremely poor defensive scheme. Who, you ask? 1.) Cincinnati - George decides it not a good Idea to blitz a rookie QB coming off a game where he was sacked 5 times and threw 2 picks; pretty obvious to me that we should have blitzed the H. E. double hockey sticks out them and won that game easily; 2.) Giants - at the point in the season, the giants weren't playing all that well & EVERYONE knows Eli chokes under pressure, but again, no blitzing...at all; 3.) 2nd game against the "Prop" Jets - Mark Sanchez...enough said.

 

Admittedly, I'm a total Bills homer, one of the crazies...but, this "I told you so," childish, "I'm always right," crap is simply distasteful.

 

How did the corner blitz against Jets game 2 work out?

 

There's a valid reason this team doesn't and shouldn't blitz -

 

1. They don't have the personnel in the secondary who can get to the passer

2. When above fails, this team gives up a very big play

[DC Tom]

Can we close this thread before anymore regrettable posts are made?

 

PTR

 

Oh please don't. Virtually the only two people here acting like adults - you and jw - are the only ones not mere bystanders. Wacky fun...

[billsfreak]

Dr. D, you are certainly one of the most pleasant Pollyanna posters around but this response is lame. billsfreak is not happy that Fitz appears to be a little bit more than a stop gap but bf was called out for something that he was obviously right about. Accountability works both ways even if you don't agree with it.

Exactly, and my biggest problem now is Fitz is obviously no better then a stop gap, but because of this ingenious front office he is now forced to be a franchise quarterback, which he will never be. Alot of people on here don't understand your statement about accountability, to alot of people it is only in play when they are right. Thanks for your commons sense on this issue.

Edited December 6, 2011 by billsfreak

[Bullpen]

Yep, just like I told Beerbawl this morning. "You can tell the Bills are on the slide because "poster-on-poster crime" is on the rise!" As unofficial keeper of the TBD media barometer list, it might be time for me to post that again, so we can update, who we like and who we dislike.

[Delete This Account]

Can we close this thread before anymore regrettable posts are made?

 

PTR

too late. there have been enough regrettable posts made over too many months to stop now, and one truly regrettable challenge by someone eager to punch someone in the media (not me) in the face in another social medium.

 

i started this and there's no real point ending it.

 

the mob should be allowed to call for its pound of flesh.

and this thing should be allowed to run its course for better and worse.

 

 

jw

[Clippers of Nfl]

this wasn't dredging. PTR's thread has bugged me for some time, and i found it evident back then that there was nothing i could write that could counter the wave of enthusiasm sweeping this board headlong toward the Super Bowl. ... i exaggerate just a little bit. but that's where many posts here during that whirlwind first month were pointing.

as i had written, i preferred to start judging a season by its midway point, not one game or one month.

and as much as i began buying into the 5-2 start, there were warning signs along the way.

 

i have no issue with PTR or anyone being a root-root-root for the home team fan. and i really don't have any ill-will toward PTR. he has a right to express his opinions as much as i have a right to exprss mine.

but in a week in which we in the business lost a respected colleague, it struck me how little respect we get sometimes -- particularly from some on this board. and it also struck me how often times "the locals" get it right.

 

hey, criticism comes with the business. but this one thread stood out for how it called out "the locals" (i'm one of them, and i'm the only one here with a voice choosing to stick up for us) as being blind, naive, lazy and lacking any reasonable function beyond expressing wet farts (i'm paraphrasing here, using poetic license, but that's how it read to me).

this isn't loyalty out of loyalty's sake. these are friends, with whom i happen to compete against.

so, yeah, i'm going to take a little offense on occasion.

 

 

the nutty thing is, i'm more encouraged about next season now that the Bills are developing depth and learning another lesson -- maybe one too many -- about what it takes to win.

and i still think this team has about 2 more wins still left in it.

 

i could be wrong.

 

jw

omg, really?

[DrDawkinstein]

omg, really?

 

Internet = SERIOUS BUSINESS!!

[Clippers of Nfl]

I joined this forum so that I could interact with other Bills fans and talk Bills football, and maybe get some more in depth knowledge from people that actually get to go to the games. When I joined in 2008 I had never heard of John Wawrow, Tim Graham, and Lori Chase. However because of this forum I got to know the work of John, Tim, and Lori and thoroughly enjoy their writings whether I agree with it or not.

 

Is it just me or has the overall attitude of this forum taken a drastic turn for the worse? In my short time here I've seen some pretty respectful posters basically get run out of here by disrespectful posters. People like Tim Graham, and Lori.

 

I mean, for Christ's sake, there are threads in which posters are wishing for Ralph Wilson's death! What the hell is wrong with us?

 

Maybe WE ALL should take a step back (myself included) and start treating everyone on this forum with a little more respect?

you want a bunch of yes sirs and yes mams??? some people go overboard. i'll give you that. but everyone should be open to critism or else why post?

 

Can we close this thread before anymore regrettable posts are made?

 

PTR

First you offend someones momma, then you want to close the thread. HELL NO. now you have to live with it ptr.

 

Exactly, and my biggest problem now is Fitz is obviously no better then a stop gap, but because of this ingenious front office he is now forced to be a franchise quarterback, which he IS ALREADY. Alot of people on here don't understand your statement about accountability, to alot of people it is only in play when they are right. Thanks for your commons sense on this issue.

fixed.

[billsfreak]

you want a bunch of yes sirs and yes mams??? some people go overboard. i'll give you that. but everyone should be open to critism or else why post?

 

 

First you offend someones momma, then you want to close the thread. HELL NO. now you have to live with it ptr.

 

 

fixed.

Your standards are very low for a franchise quarterback. No wonder you are content with losing.

[Jerry Christ]

dude........seriously, you are being so immature it's not even funny........my respect is gone.

[K-9]

Exactly, and my biggest problem now is Fitz is obviously no better then a stop gap, but because of this ingenious front office he is now forced to be a franchise quarterback, which he will never be. Alot of people on here don't understand your statement about accountability, to alot of people it is only in play when they are right. Thanks for your commons sense on this issue.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. If the Bills wanted to, they could release Fitz before the seventh day of the next league year and only be on the hook for the $10m bonus he got upon signing the new deal plus his 3.22m salary for this year. Doubt that happens, but the Bills could do it if they wished.

 

They can also draft a franchise QB if they wish and groom him for 3 years as Fitz is only guaranteed 24m over those three seasons and, with the new rookie wage caps in place, they could comfortably carry both on their roster.

 

Fitz's new deal was good for both sides. Fitz will either grow into that franchise QB or be gone within three years while the Bills won't be hamstrung by the numbers.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Endless Ike]

Pollyanna in Chief PTR has the same amount of credibility as Gremlin-in-chief Sullivan

[Bronc24]

Man, I'd really have to look in the mirror and re-evaluate my entire situation if a 3 month post on a Bills' message board lingered with me for that long.

[PromoTheRobot]

Pollyanna in Chief PTR has the same amount of credibility as Gremlin-in-chief Sullivan

It's funny how I got this reputation as a pollyanna. This is an example of a lie repeated often enough until it becomes a fact. If you don't blame Ralph for everything from not making the playoffs to spilling your beer then you must be a pollyanna. People have replaced reason with rage, and if you challenge them you are the enemy.

 

 

First you offend someones momma, then you want to close the thread. HELL NO. now you have to live with it ptr.

 

I was actually speaking about people making vile posts toward jw. I could give a schitt about what cretins like you think. By the way, find the post where I insulted jw's or anyone's mother. Oh you can't? Gee, I wonder why? Someone has to resort to making stuff up to bolster their posts. Pretty weak.

 

PTR

Edited December 6, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[Mr. WEO]

Can we close this thread before anymore regrettable posts are made?

 

PTR

 

 

Oh, that's rich.

 

Don't remember you making that plea when you created the thread jw is referring to....

[PromoTheRobot]

Oh, that's rich.

 

Don't remember you making that plea when you created the thread jw is referring to....

I never call jw names like some of you do.

 

PTR

[JohnC]

---

 

um ... well, ah ... in retrospect ... i think your theory was, well, disproved.

 

jw

 

The odds are greater that the Taliban would encourage their wives to wear string bikinis and go topless at the beach than have PTR change his very unshakeable positive view about the caliber of the management of this historically flawed organization. Zealots are locked in and unchangeable. Facts be damned. At least he is a paying customer. So he is entitled to his strong stance.

[Ray]

We all got swept up in the positive play winning in the beginning of the season and now we have likely been too negative with their fall from grace. Likely three lost pro bowlers this season to injury (KW, EW, FJ) and a host of other injuries certainly did not help things.

We probably will have better perspective after the season and realize the Bills are a few players away from being a very good team.

In the end 5-7 prior to the season starting would be where most of us probably thought they would be. Maybe it would have been easier to take if they won/lost every other game rather than the euphoria of the beginning of the season and getting sucked into the hype

[Clippers of Nfl]

Your standards are very low for a franchise quarterback. No wonder you are content with losing.

when did i say i was content with losing???

 

fitz may not be the hall of fame qb you're expecting, but we have bigger issues first.