Bob Sanders

[Mr. WEO]

Thank you very much for the info.

 

 

 

 

You might have misread my post on Sanders. I acknowledged that Sanders was better than Whitner. I called him a dynamic player. The problem with him is that he is more often than not hurt. As I noted his crashing style of play, certainly not finesse, is a factor. You may consider him to be a fire plug, but a fire plug out of commission is not very useful when it comes to putting out a fire.

I based my response on your description of Sanders as undersized. But I agree he has been injured often.

 

WEO, the bolded is basically my argument too. I fully agree that if they had the same amount of playing time, Sanders would have much better numbers than Whitner because he would be the much better player.

 

HOWEVER, when you put the "if"s aside and deal with reality, what you have in Sanders is a guy who has played in LESS THAN HALF of the games in his career. What good is having the "better" player when he's never on the field? How good can Sanders be from the bench? How does that help improve the team? Do the Bills really need another guy on IR?

 

If you rate Sanders a 90 when healthy, and Whitner an 80, doesnt having an 80 on the field for all 16 games sound better than a 90 for 2 games (and then having to hope his backup plays well)?

 

Well, I have to concede that if the only criterion for being "better" is showing up to work more often, then Whitner would get the nod over Sanders. Otherwise, when healthy, Sanders is a very good safety, whereas Whitner is "Bills good". On the field, there is simply no comparison--just wanted to make that point.

 

But again, I don't see much difference in considering Sanders and hiring Merriman. That was my original contribution to this thread. I really don't care if we pick up Sanders--for the same reasons you have mentioned (which are the same reservations I had about the Merriman hire--I just don't undderstand why they are so different in the eyes of some posters).

[JohnC]

whereas Whitner is "Bills good".

 

The problem with the Bills is that most of the roster are "Bills good" . It has descended down to the level where a lot of fans are exhuberant about an almost win against a good team. At this point I don't believe the Bills have franchised any player because there are no players worthy of earning franchise type of money. How embarrasing is that?

 

 

 

But again, I don't see much difference in considering Sanders and hiring Merriman. That was my original contribution to this thread. I really don't care if we pick up Sanders--for the same reasons you have mentioned (which are the same reservations I had about the Merriman hire--I just don't undderstand why they are so different in the eyes of some posters).

[/font]

 

Maybe Merriman has a better sack dance?????

Edited February 23, 2011 by JohnC

[Bill from NYC]

If you rate Sanders a 90 when healthy, and Whitner an 80, doesnt having an 80 on the field for all 16 games sound better than a 90 for 2 games (and then having to hope his backup plays well)?

 

Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck.

 

He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise.

 

It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games?

Edited February 23, 2011 by Bill from NYC

[DrDawkinstein]

Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck.

 

He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise.

 

It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games?

 

As long as we keep letting our drafted players walk after their first contract is up, and replace them with broken players who only have maaaybe 2 years left in the league, causing us to spend ANOTHER high draft pick on the position... yeah, thats how long we'll keep losing....

 

Our DBs were not the problem. Keep the guys we have, and shore up the LINES and FRONT 7, then we can think about replacing Whitner.

 

 

If Whitner is a 65, then that makes Scott and Wilson 55-60s. So after we get 1 game of Sanders at 90, and he goes on IR, you think we'll be better with a 55 in there than with Whitner??

Edited February 23, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[Adam]

Part of the reason he had trouble staying healthy was the smallish defensive front that he played behind, exposed him to a lot. If Troupe can crack the lineup this year and we continue to build a strong front seven, Sanders could do well- then again, so could Whitner

[DrDawkinstein]

Part of the reason he had trouble staying healthy was the smallish defensive front that he played behind, exposed him to a lot. If Troupe can crack the lineup this year and we continue to build a strong front seven, Sanders could do well- then again, so could Whitner

 

 

ehhh, from all the clips ive been watching the past couple days, there isnt a lot of him getting rolled by Guards who have clear runs, like Poz and Whitner get. Most of Sanders's injuries were self inflicted from hitting like a truck. I can respect that, but it doesnt bode well for his team.

 

Indy's D was small, but they ran it well. He had lots of clear lanes to blow up runner near the line. And he did. But he also destroyed himself

[Bill from NYC]

As long as we keep letting our drafted players walk after their first contract is up, and replace them with broken players who only have maaaybe 2 years left in the league, causing us to spend ANOTHER high draft pick on the position... yeah, thats how long we'll keep losing....

 

Our DBs were not the problem. Keep the guys we have, and shore up the LINES and FRONT 7, then we can think about replacing Whitner.

 

Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games.

 

Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner.

 

It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity.

[DrDawkinstein]

Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games.

 

Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner.

 

It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity.

 

I dont disagree with this at all. And I dont think teams HAVE to use high picks on DBs. My point had more to do with: that is what the BILLS do. They did it BEFORE Levy, and theyll do it after. The "fan's mindset" really means very little to the team. They didnt draft all these 1st round DBs because WE wanted them to. It's what the BILLS do, for as far back as I can remember. Not just Jauron/Levy. And I blame that on Ralph.

 

 

What I am sick of, is being a farm team for the rest of the league. And letting our players go, right as they are developing.

 

You have said it yourself that the Bills have neglected the lines and front 7. Im not excusing Whitner's play, but do you really think ANY DBs would have had a chance back there with NO pass rush, and NO run stoppers? People have no problem holding Whitner up to Polomalu, but they completely ignore the comparison of Pitts Front 7 and defensive scheme versus the Bills'.

 

I'm not saying "Pay Whitner whatever he wants", but if we can get him into a $6mil/year deal, keep him around for a few more years, and let the coaches concentrate on developing the Front 7... THEN if he still sucks he can be an easy cap casualty. We're always well under cap so even if no one picks him up (which they will) and we were stuck with $4mil/year in dead money for a few years, itll be worth it.

 

Sticker shock to regular Joes like you and I aside, neither Kelsay's contract nor Whitner at $6mil/year is really that much in the NFL. Heck, 33 year old Champ Bailey was just signed for $10mil/year.

 

Creating more holes is NOT what this team needs. I agree we shouldnt reward Mediocrity, but we dont have any "Greatness" to reward either, so the guys that have put the time in and have been team players through these crappy years do get the reward. Hopefully, with Buddy drafting, we will have some greatness to reward soon enough. But right now, you have to keep the "best we got" even if that is "meh".

Edited February 24, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[JohnC]

Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games.

 

Are you so frustrated that you are willing to gratuitously create more holes? The Bills roster is the epitome of mediocrity. Do you want to dump the whole roster all at once? Whitner is a decent player, nothing more. So what. That category applies to 90% of our roster. If he can be signed for a reasonable price then I would not be adverse to keeping him.

 

Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner.

 

Your line of reasoning is contradictory. On the one hand you say that it was foolish to sign Kelsay for a excessive price. Then you follow up that criticism with a willingness to sign another player for an overvalued price. Let's be consistent here. Why not instead advocate that the Bills be run in a more intelligent manner? I'm not against paying a prermium to get a very much desired player to fill a critical need, but I'm certainly against paying an outsized contract for a player. Too much of that distorted talent/salary foolishness has occurred with this dismal franchise. Your approach is the same approach that the Jauron/Levy regime did with the out of balanced contracts that Dockery and Langston Walker got.

 

It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity.

 

No one disagrees with your sentiment. The best way to change the culture within this chaotic organization is to consistently make sound decisions. By drafting smartly and being judicious with our free agent signings the tide will eventually turn. Most frustrated fans are going to want grander decisions. My request is a little bit milder and more boring; I want general competency.

[Phlegm Alley]

I would run the risk of potentially signing a player who the front office deems an upgrade to a position on one of the worst defenses last year and him staying healthy for an entire year than re-sign Whitner and be exposed to the same mediocrity that this defense has had since he was drafted.

 

They are doing it with Merriman, and hopefully, they get it done with Sanders. It could be what is needed to give the defense the identity that they need. Everyone here should agree that Sanders is much better against the run than Whitner, who seemed smallish and wiry, compared to Sanders. This would allow Byrd to do his thing and be a hawk.

 

Bottom Line: if you see the opportunity to get better at a position on a defense that was as bad as they were, you do it and you don't think about "what if..."

[JohnC]

Bottom Line: if you see the opportunity to get better at a position on a defense that was as bad as they were, you do it and you don't think about "what if..."

 

Why do you think the Colts, a more wisely run franchise, cut him loose? You are taking on a player with a history of a lack of durability. Sometimes you get what you get. In a profession of crash and more crash don't diminish the ability to stay on the field. That is something the admittedly more talented player has not been able to do for a number of years.

[qdawg in philly]

How did Sanders make plays? What type of player is he? Can you explain the Tampa2 defense to me? Can you do this in detail? Also, explain the SS in the roles of both the 3-4 and 4-3. You are 100% lacking on football knowledge evidently.

If u already know, why would u need me to explain it?! But I got a ? for u! What was Sanders last injury and how did he do it? And if I'm so lacking on footbal knowledege why the f*ck would u ask me that question? Have you followed Sanders during the time he played? I can tell u, but look it up!

 

Stay in Philly. What a clueless answer. Yeah one tackle when his shoulder was badly injured. Whitner hits like a truck . Always has.

But does he make plays? That's what its about. And he hits like a truck 10 yards after the play! So u tell me, can he cover? Getting trucked isn't the only thing I stated! Get a f*cking grip! And yeah I am Philly and if choose to stay here I will! Wtf is it to u? Obviously your clueless!!

Edited February 24, 2011 by qdawg in philly

[Aloha22]

Donte isn't worth the 6-8M per year he wants.

 

Give Sanders an incentive laden contract that involves playing time (% of defensive snaps played)

[Phlegm Alley]

Why do you think the Colts, a more wisely run franchise, cut him loose? You are taking on a player with a history of a lack of durability. Sometimes you get what you get. In a profession of crash and more crash don't diminish the ability to stay on the field. That is something the admittedly more talented player has not been able to do for a number of years.

 

They have to sign Peyton Manning to a long term deal and they need to pay him. Obviously they would have liked to have kept Sanders, but were hesitant to pay him the $$$ owed to him because they go lack of production from him because of the time he had missed.

 

No question that he is a risk, but he also has a very high reward. I would rather see the team take a gamble on an injury prone Sanders than to re-sign Whitner, a known quantity who hasn't shown much in his career. We would still have Ralph's son George as a backup, who was arguably better than Whitner in the first place.

[Bzee]

Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck.

 

He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise.

 

It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games?

I totally agree, whenever you see Sports Center and they show Bills highlights of opposing teams scoring on us guess who's always around getting burned?

[John from Riverside]

I cant believe people are actually defending Daunte's play.....

 

Guys....HE CANT COVER

[billsfan89]

I think that Sanders is worth the risk give him a low base salary, a lot of incentives, and see if he can go. I like that he is a game changer when healthy but he is so rarely healthy. WE wouldn't be dependent on Sanders as Wilson could just step in.

[boyst]

So, you're not Tony Dungy apparently.

Nope, shirley not.

 

Are you joking?

Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT (1 every 13.2 games to Sanders 1 in every 8). Which goes to...wait, yeah, you are sort of right, but looking back on it, the Colts D in 2007 was amazing, and he had great DB's to protect the pass and play tight on the WR's. That gave him a lot of opportunities. Also, their running defense was average, at best, allowing him to rack up lots of tackles.

 

This means next to zilch as far as your argument because Whitner and Sanders both played in the Tampa-2 at the same position. Sanders has played in 48 games in his career (according to NFL.com) and Whitner played 43 games at SS in his first 3 years. Since then, Whitner got kicked out to FS and then played in a lousy 3-4 hybrid last year where he accumulated a big number of tackles behind a front 7 that was constantly bleeding to death. Sanders won NFL Defensive Player of the Year honors at the position in 2007. So in roughly the same number of games in the same position in the same defensive system, how can you say one is the product of the system and the other brought the same thing to the field?

 

Maybe a better comparison would be Sanders to Merriman? They've each had about as much success since 2007.

I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked. Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career.

 

Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS.

 

If u already know, why would u need me to explain it?! But I got a ? for u! What was Sanders last injury and how did he do it? And if I'm so lacking on footbal knowledege why the f*ck would u ask me that question? Have you followed Sanders during the time he played? I can tell u, but look it up!

Torn bicep, really a bad injury, painful and agonizing. He had a bruised knee, and something else with it that was nagging, then something to do with his elbow and/or wrist. I do not write a journal of his injuries, and there are many to remember. Also, somewhere in there I am pretty sure he had a shuolder injury in there somewhere, but that might have been a few seasons ago. He also twisted his ankle while combing his hair, I think.

 

But does he make plays? That's what its about. And he hits like a truck 10 yards after the play! So u tell me, can he cover? Getting trucked isn't the only thing I stated! Get a f*cking grip! And yeah I am Philly and if choose to stay here I will! Wtf is it to u? Obviously your clueless!!

Easy on making the replies so personal, kind of ruins the friendly banter atomosphere.

Edited February 24, 2011 by jboyst62

[qdawg in philly]

Nope, shirley not.

 

 

Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT. Which goes to...

 

 

I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked. Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career.

 

Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS.

 

 

Torn bicep, really a bad injury, painful and agonizing. He had a bruised knee, and something else with it that was nagging, then something to do with his elbow and/or wrist. I do not write a journal of his injuries, and there are many to remember. Also, somewhere in there I am pretty sure he had a shuolder injury in there somewhere, but that might have been a few seasons ago. He also twisted his ankle while combing his hair, I think.

 

 

Easy on making the replies so personal, kind of ruins the friendly banter atomosphere.

You got it. I apologize for that! But if I'm not mistaking, the torn bicep was vs san fran and he made an int on that play! He didn't play anymore that season! He makes plays! O....and check this out. I ask several coworkers if they ever heard of DW. They stated they never heard of him and they follow football closely.

And thats my point, he doesn't deserve what he's asking for. So are u saying keep him??

Edited February 24, 2011 by qdawg in philly

[boyst]

So are u saying keep him??

I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety.

 

In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning.

 

Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.

[NoSaint]

I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety.

 

In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning.

 

Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.

 

 

buuuuutttttt polian knows what hes doing and sanders is CLEARLY washed up and worthless at this point.

 

or maybe not?

[qdawg in philly]

I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety.

 

In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning.

 

Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.

Lol!!! So you like whitner over wilson???

[boyst]

Lol!!! So you like whitner over wilson???

I like them both equally.

They both have their strengths, they both have their weaknesses. I think Whitner offers more on 1st and 2nd downs and overall is slightly better, while Wilson is more responsive to the pass and ideal in passing downs and 3rds.

[qdawg in philly]

I like them both equally.

They both have their strengths, they both have their weaknesses. I think Whitner offers more on 1st and 2nd downs and overall is slightly better, while Wilson is more responsive to the pass and ideal in passing downs and 3rds.

Gotcha!

[jr1]

Sanders is talented but an IR list waiting to happen

[zazie]

Sanders is talented but an IR list waiting to happen

A healthy Bob Sanders is much better than Whitner.

 

the problem with Whtner is that he is healthy all the time but never makes plays, and is frequently exposed in coverage.

 

If Whitner does walk, it is my guess that he (as well as Sanders) will end up with an incentive-laden contract for a low base salary.

 

Some will be based on playning time for Whitner. If I am Whitners agent I try to make it all based on playing time, as the incentives he may earn from INT's will not be too much.

[mabden]

IMO there is no way the bills even consider sanders.

 

 

When you go 4-12 and have missed the playoffs 11 years in a row, you consider EVEYTHING!

[JohnC]

They have to sign Peyton Manning to a long term deal and they need to pay him. Obviously they would have liked to have kept Sanders, but were hesitant to pay him the $$$ owed to him because they go lack of production from him because of the time he had missed.

 

You have with a great deal of clarity made my point.

[papazoid]

apologize if this has already been said....

 

 

Sanders will resign with INDY.

 

he is using Buf & Jax to reset his market value so he can justify in his own mind taking a substantial pay cut with INDY and accepting an incentive laden contract based heavily on playing time.

[Beerball]

Since I don't want to start another thread...

 

According to T. Graham...the Buffalo Bills probably will check OJ Atogwe out.

 

link

[Sisyphean Bills]

Nope, shirley not.

 

 

Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT (1 every 13.2 games to Sanders 1 in every 8). Which goes to...wait, yeah, you are sort of right, but looking back on it, the Colts D in 2007 was amazing, and he had great DB's to protect the pass and play tight on the WR's. That gave him a lot of opportunities. Also, their running defense was average, at best, allowing him to rack up lots of tackles.

 

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying Sanders was a ballhawk, which he has never been.

I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked.

They had better players and Tony Dungy coaching them.

 

Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career.

There are some similarities. Both are small SS. While Whitner hasn't been injured as often, he has been injured and as he gets older, the accumulation of injuries and his natural size do not play to his advantage. They are both box safeties that play the run. Though there are differences. Sanders is a dynamic player against the run and has great instincts and played hard and fast downhill. Despite his lack of size I have seen him stone larger ball carriers in the hole with leverage and great technique. His read and diagnose is excellent and in his prime he made many plays in the offensive backfield. The Colts defense was very good against the run with him on the field and very poor when he was out. On the other hand, Whitner's strength is playing the run but he is not as instinctive and not a dynamic player. He makes tackles after the play has developed and made yardage. He doesn't play downhill, takes poor angles, etc.

 

Now as far as the passing game, neither Sanders nor Whitner are shutdown corners playing SS. Coverage isn't the strength of either player's game...

 

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

 

Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS.

I figured most people knew that I was talking about the start of the season 2 years ago. Whitner absolutely was the starting FS and Scott was the starting SS. Whitner got injured and the LB group got decimated, so Scott ended up playing LB, Whitner and Wilson playing at SS, and Byrd at FS.

[Ramius]

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying Sanders was a ballhawk, which he has never been.

 

They had better players and Tony Dungy coaching them.

 

 

There are some similarities. Both are small SS. While Whitner hasn't been injured as often, he has been injured and as he gets older, the accumulation of injuries and his natural size do not play to his advantage. They are both box safeties that play the run. Though there are differences. Sanders is a dynamic player against the run and has great instincts and played hard and fast downhill. Despite his lack of size I have seen him stone larger ball carriers in the hole with leverage and great technique. His read and diagnose is excellent and in his prime he made many plays in the offensive backfield. The Colts defense was very good against the run with him on the field and very poor when he was out. On the other hand, Whitner's strength is playing the run but he is not as instinctive and not a dynamic player. He makes tackles after the play has developed and made yardage. He doesn't play downhill, takes poor angles, etc.

 

Now as far as the passing game, neither Sanders nor Whitner are shutdown corners playing SS. Coverage isn't the strength of either player's game...

 

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

 

 

I figured most people knew that I was talking about the start of the season 2 years ago. Whitner absolutely was the starting FS and Scott was the starting SS. Whitner got injured and the LB group got decimated, so Scott ended up playing LB, Whitner and Wilson playing at SS, and Byrd at FS.

 

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

[boyst]

Anyway, there are some obvious similarities between two guys of similar builds that play the same position in the same system. But there are also differences as well, which is really why the plus-side of the resumes do not compare.

So, who would you prioritize? Sanders, Atogwe, Whitner, or Wilson. I think Wilson comes back for depth, and hope as well. Between the 3 I would go Whitner, Sanders, Atogwe. Sanders on a Merriman contract works for me. Wilson can start, Sanders can get his time in that situation. I see Atogwe wanting big money, just like Whitner with the only difference is that Whitner has familiarity with the team and we know what he brings to the table.

 

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

see above.

 

What would you do with Wilson? We need two safeties. I do not want to draft a SS and picking the bottom of the barrel for training camp fodder.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I think that what it all comes down to is that all 3 guys bring things to the table, and depends on what price they are asking. I'm ok with Sanders on a Merriman type incentive based contract. However, if i need to spend 5-6 mil per season on one of these guys, the order i'd go would be Whitner, Atogwe, Sanders. I see Whitner and Atogwe as similar players, but Whitner is 4 years younger. Sanders is too injury prone to spend significant cash on.

Depends on what they want. Isn't Atogwe a FS? Whitner is looking for a pay raise, so he could be thinking $6M or more. Also, the team is self-admittedly a few years away anyway. They can rent a journeyman to man the position for a season or two, while they are getting the right parts for and molding a 3-4 defense. Upgrading the front 7 would be my priority at this point. Having a bunch of Deion Sanders clones out there for the passing game is only of limited value if anybody can run on you to the tune of 170 yards a game and your D has absolutely zero pass rush ability.

[Bill from NYC]

I don't want to be argumentive but I agree with Dr. Dank. There is no doubt that Sanders is a more dynamic player who seems to always be on the ball. The concern I have with him is that he's an undersized player who plays with a reckless abandon. He is constantly in the middle of the action (including running plays) with a crash and burn style. The problem is that in his self-induced collisions he is the player being mangled.

 

If I had a choice between both of the players at a reasonable price I would take Whitner who has proven to be fairly durable. I consider Whitner to be in the solid (above average) category. Which is much lower than his inflated view of himself.

 

I disagree. One thing that Whitner has proven is that he will never be a difference maker. At least Sanders, when healthy, has proven that he is one.

When Whitner was out, it made little difference. You have many times lamented about the horror that Dick Levy inflicted upon this franchise and a great bunch of fans. It's time to cut out the cancer imo.

 

Bye-bye Lil' Donte! And good riddance!!!

[JohnC]

I disagree. One thing that Whitner has proven is that he will never be a difference maker. At least Sanders, when healthy, has proven that he is one.

When Whitner was out, it made little difference. You have many times lamented about the horror that Dick Levy inflicted upon this franchise and a great bunch of fans. It's time to cut out the cancer imo.

 

Bye-bye Lil' Donte! And good riddance!!!

 

Your characterization of Whitner being a cancer is very harsh coming from such a kind-hearted person like you. My assessment on Whitner has been consistent. He is a decent player, nothing more or less. My position on his retention is predicated on his being payed at the level of his play. As it stands he has an inflated view of himself as a player and on how he should be paid. Unless he lowers his contract expectations he will be dispatched.

 

I have not claimed that when healthy Whitner is better than Sanders. That isn't the issue. Sanders has for years been plagued with disabling injuries. Based on Sanders's history of injuries I would be very wary of adding him to the roster.

 

Please don't bring up the issue of the Levy/Jauron era. I get extremely agitated thinking about it. I blame the clown owner for that fiasco. That era was so stupid that it was embarrassing. Are you trying to provoke me into a spasm of anger? LOL

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC

[Bill from NYC]

Please don't bring up the issue of the Levy/Jauron era. I get extremely agitated thinking about it. I blame the clown owner for that fiasco. That era was so stupid that it was embarrassing. Are you trying to provoke me into a spasm of anger? LOL

 

No.

 

This is another one of those situations in which we almost see eye to eye. The Dick Levy philosophy was to play "not to lose." Overall, is Whitner "safer" than Sanders? Probably, but that doesn't make him what this team needs. The Bills need to take risks. Mr. Wilson trusted Dick Levy. This can be taken as evidence of his ineptitude, but as little as he knows about building a football team, he is sharper than those two disasters. You might agree whereas he, like you, called for a qb this season.

 

What I am saying is that I would prefer that the Bills draft Newton (big risk) or Mallett (possible drug addict) than another rb, wideout, or db. I would welcome Fairley too, and with all of those penalties he might be a psychotic.

Wrt to Lil' Donte, I view him as no risk/no reward. He is a small, non-play making blowhard who wants a ton of money. If Sanders plays in 8 games, he will make more key plays than Whitner has in his entire career.

 

Maybe we will get lucky and Spiller too will make a play, ya know?

[JohnC]

No.

 

This is another one of those situations in which we almost see eye to eye. The Dick Levy philosophy was to play "not to lose." Overall, is Whitner "safer" than Sanders? Probably, but that doesn't make him what this team needs. The Bills need to take risks. Mr. Wilson trusted Dick Levy. This can be taken as evidence of his ineptitude, but as little as he knows about building a football team, he is sharper than those two disasters. ]You might agree whereas he, like you, called for a qb this season.

 

You are a provocateur. Linking an opinion of mine with the cartoonish owner is a act of subversion. Your steady stream of jabs is taking a toll on me. Even a fading owner realizes that to be a contending team you have to have a certain level of excellence from the most important positon in the game. In baseball you can have potent hitting that dazzles the peanut galary all season long. But when the playoffs begin ultimately the caliber of a team's pitching staff will usually determine the winner. The San Fran Giants demonstrated that point. If you review the last two SBs you will get a demonstration of the importance of having an elite level of qb to be highly successful. (Peyton, Brees, Rodgere and Roethlisberger) The Bills have Fitz. There is no need to even respond to something that even a 92 yr old owner can see.

 

What I am saying is that I would prefer that the Bills draft Newton (big risk) or Mallett (possible drug addict) than another rb, wideout, or db. I would welcome Fairley too, and with all of those penalties he might be a psychotic.

Wrt to Lil' Donte, I view him as no risk/no reward. He is a small, non-play making blowhard who wants a ton of money. If Sanders plays in 8 games, he will make more key plays than Whitner has in his entire career.

 

With respect to qbs I'm starting to take a liking to Gabbert. He seems to be a much more finished product than the physical speciman from Alabama. But I would take either one.

 

My on to do list is to break your infatuation with Mallett. I will diligently chip away until you unclinch your tightly closed fist and let him go. There is no doubt that he is the best passer coming out of college, and that would have included Luck if he came out. The problem with him is his immobility. That is a killer for an qb playing for the Bills behind this porous line. It simply won't work. Another issue is that any qb playing for the Bills has to deal with adversity and unrealistic fans. I'm not sure he has the strength of character and mental toughness to handle what Losman and Edwards had to endure. No matter what anyone thinks of Losman and Edwards they were subjected to playing on a garbage team and organization. How can any qb be expected to develop under those chaotic circumstances? Everything I have read about Mallett doesn't suggest that he has the type of personality to handle such an avalache of adversity.

 

Maybe we will get lucky and Spiller too will make a play, ya know?

 

You and WEO are on my I Told You So notification when he develops into the scintillating player I think he will ultimately be. The notification will be very diplomatic yet also very pointed.

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC

[Bill from NYC]

You are a provocateur. Linking an opinion of mine with the cartoonish owner is a act of subversion. Your steady stream of jabs is taking a toll on me. Even a fading owner realizes that to be a contending team you have to have a certain level of excellence from the most important positon in the game. In baseball you can have potent hitting that dazzles the peanut galary all season long. But when the playoffs begin ultimately the caliber of a team's pitching staff will usually determine the winner. The San Fran Giants demonstrated that point. If you review the last two SBs you will get a demonstration of the importance of having an elite level of qb to be highly successful. (Peyton, Brees, Rodgere and Roethlisberger) The Bills have Fitz. There is no need to even respond to something that even a 92 yr old owner can see.

 

I am hoping that you are kidding with the above. If not, I apologise.

 

What I meant was that Ralph is a money guy. He is probably a financial genius even at his advanced age. But even with this and not football being his area of expertise, he is better equipped to build a team than Levy/Jauron imo. THAT is how little I view the abilities of those two.

I believe that Ralph was the driving force behind the Spiller selection. I can't prove it nor do I have a link. You too liked that pick so there is common ground. You and Mr. Wilson both push a first round qb although for different reasons I am sure. You want one to build a football team. Ralph would like that too but a qb at #3 will make him money if he can play. Tons of it.

 

If the chips fall right, the Bills can improve in many areas next season. But as I said in the other post, they need to be a little daring. Because of Mr. Wilson's statements about a qb, I feel better about this draft. Let's keep hoping they don't screw it up.

[JohnC]

I am hoping that you are kidding with the above. If not, I apologise.

 

Absolutely joking. Apologize for what? Sometimes in writing and reading a response the jocularly tone isn't easily exhibited.

 

What I meant was that Ralph is a money guy. He is probably a financial genius even at his advanced age. But even with this and not football being his area of expertise, he is better equipped to build a team than Levy/Jauron imo. THAT is how little I view the abilities of those two.

I believe that Ralph was the driving force behind the Spiller selection. I can't prove it nor do I have a link. You too liked that pick so there is common ground. You and Mr. Wilson both push a first round qb although for different reasons I am sure. You want one to build a football team. Ralph would like that too but a qb at #3 will make him money if he can play. Tons of it.

 

Your intuition regarding the owner being behind the Spiller selection is very reasonable. I have heard the owner state that the Bills were a boring team and needed to do something about it. When the owner makes a recommendation to a recently hired GM in his 70s who would have not been considered as a serious GM candidate by any other franchise you better believe that Good Old Buddy listens.

 

There is a logic to taking Spiller on the basis of his ranking and playmaking ability. Truthfully, he is not the player I would have selected. My philosophy on rebuilding an expansion team (what the Bills really are) is to concentrate on the lines, on both sides of the ball, and then pursue the perimeter positions. The player I would have taken last year was Bulaga. Although it would have been a bit high from a player ranking standpoint he would have been a good pick from a building block standpoint. My preference is to build the infrastructure (lines) and then go on from there.

 

If the chips fall right, the Bills can improve in many areas next season. But as I said in the other post, they need to be a little daring. Because of Mr. Wilson's statements about a qb, I feel better about this draft. Let's keep hoping they don't screw it up.

 

My reason for desiring a qb is different from the owner's. He is more attuned to the marketing aspect of a qb selection. My primary reason for pursuing a qb is that the Bills are drafting from a very high position. Now is the time to take the plunge and use that lofty drafting position to get a franchise qb on board. If our scouts believe that Newton or Gabbert or anyone else falls in that category they should just take the plunge, secure their future qb, and then go on with the rebuilding process.

 

Atlanta with Matt Ryan, Tampa with Freeman, St. Louis with Bradford, New York with Sanchez and even to a lesser extent Detroit with the much injured Stafford have shown that getting the young gun qb does have an elevating affect on a team. No team goes anywhere without a legitimate franchise qb. When you are in a position to get one then you should seize the opportunity. Fitz in my mind is a Kitna caliber player. He would be an excellent bridge qb and tutor for the more talented developing prospect.

 

I again apologize for the bad humor displayed in the prior post. Maybe I should be more serious? Nope!

Edited February 26, 2011 by JohnC