Will the Bills go back to the 4-3

[wooly22]

I was reading that every defense that Wannstedt has run has been a 4-3. I know he is not actually running the D now, but I can only assume that they hired him for some plans they have. With that being said, it would take fewer pieces to have a good 4-3 than a 3-4. Poz is a better 4-3 MLB than an ILB in a 3-4. If Merriman comes back healthy, that makes 2 out of 3. The 3rd LB would be the biggest question mark. I'm not sure Moats or Batten would be a fit. The D-line seemed to do better out of the 4-3, and this would make the #3 pick a little more flexible if they go DE.

Will they try to run both?

[McD]

I was reading that every defense that Wannstedt has run has been a 4-3. I know he is not actually running the D now, but I can only assume that they hired him for some plans they have. With that being said, it would take fewer pieces to have a good 4-3 than a 3-4. Poz is a better 4-3 MLB than an ILB in a 3-4. If Merriman comes back healthy, that makes 2 out of 3. The 3rd LB would be the biggest question mark. I'm not sure Moats or Batten would be a fit. The D-line seemed to do better out of the 4-3, and this would make the #3 pick a little more flexible if they go DE.

Will they try to run both?

 

I think they will try to stay versitle and run both. Moats seems like more of a threat at the 3-4, but I think he can still be effective in the 4-3. What will be interesting to me is... will they feel "good" about their D with Williams and maybe Stroud on the inside, and Troup, Johnson and Carrington, etc at DE? If they do I can see either a trade down or Patrick Peterson in our future...

[Astrobot]

Batten, a 4-year DE in college, was initially put at OLB but switched to ILB. He has been attending all meetings and drills. He would make a great ILB sidekick to Poz in either the 3-4 or backup for Poz in a 4-3. I love his ability to tackle and slough off a block in traffic. He'll play on ST, too.

 

Moats really came on in the last 4 games. He had a steep learning curve but he's best as a pass-rushing OLB.

 

We're still going to take two LB's in this draft, or sign a very good free agent.

[Bangarang]

People act like DW is oblivious to anything other than the 4-3. The guy has been around and am quite certain he knows a thing or two about running a 3-4. The guy will probably just be here to help Edwards game plan and set up different packages. The Asst. HC title is just to bump up his pay and look good on a resume so he can try and get a HC job somewhere else in a year or two.

[The Senator]

Batten, a 4-year DE in college, was initially put at OLB but switched to ILB. He has been attending all meetings and drills. He would make a great ILB sidekick to Poz in either the 3-4 or backup for Poz in a 4-3. I love his ability to tackle and slough off a block in traffic. He'll play on ST, too.

 

Moats really came on in the last 4 games. He had a steep learning curve but he's best as a pass-rushing OLB.

 

We're still going to take two LB's in this draft, or sign a very good free agent.

Dontay Moch? Owen Marecic?

[Bangarang]

Dontay Moch

 

Please god no. The guy has terrible size and football instincts. He only has speed. Which he'll more than likely use to run himself out of a lot of plays. He's been dreadful during practices for the Shrine Game. I think he came in weighing 229lbs. That size won't cut it in the NFL.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

I think they will try to stay versitle and run both. Moats seems like more of a threat at the 3-4, but I think he can still be effective in the 4-3. What will be interesting to me is... will they feel "good" about their D with Williams and maybe Stroud on the inside, and Troup, Johnson and Carrington, etc at DE? If they do I can see either a trade down or Patrick Peterson in our future...

If they were to go exclusively in the 4-3 Williams, Stroud, Troup, and Johnson would likely be the DTs. Edwards, Carrington, Kelsay, Maybin would be the DEs that are currently on the roster.

 

People act like DW is oblivious to anything other than the 4-3. The guy has been around and am quite certain he knows a thing or two about running a 3-4. The guy will probably just be here to help Edwards game plan and set up different packages. The Asst. HC title is just to bump up his pay and look good on a resume so he can try and get a HC job somewhere else in a year or two.

But I agree with this, he is not the defensive coordinator but a position coach/consultant and while his voice may be louder than the other position coaches in the room I dont think his signing changes any future plans for the defense.

 

Batten, a 4-year DE in college, was initially put at OLB but switched to ILB. He has been attending all meetings and drills. He would make a great ILB sidekick to Poz in either the 3-4 or backup for Poz in a 4-3. I love his ability to tackle and slough off a block in traffic. He'll play on ST, too.

 

Moats really came on in the last 4 games. He had a steep learning curve but he's best as a pass-rushing OLB.

 

We're still going to take two LB's in this draft, or sign a very good free agent.

I think Merriman and Moats man one spot while they bring in a high pick (top 3 rounds) to compete with or replace Kelsay.

[crazyDingo]

Please god no. The guy has terrible size and football instincts. He only has speed. Which he'll more than likely use to run himself out of a lot of plays. He's been dreadful during practices for the Shrine Game. I think he came in weighing 229lbs. That size won't cut it in the NFL.

You can't go wrong drafting a quick first-step. The front office knows you can't coach quickness, and that mindset has never steered the Bills wrong. I hope they get him in the first round and he holds out before flaming out 2 seasons from now.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Dontay Moch? Owen Marecic?

 

don't fall in love with a couple guys, really watch some highlights to get get a good feel for guys. It's good to watch their games but too late for that now. Mock just doesn't have it and Marecic is high motor high character guy and might be ok LB but he is more fullback/special teamer. Sam Acho for outside and Chris White for inside would much better options.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Buffalo Barbarian

[lets_go_bills]

The Bills appear completely and absolutely torn between which defense they want to play. There's evidence that points to each the 3-4 and the 4-3.

 

1. Edwards is a 3-4 guy. Wannstedt a 4-3.

2. Williams is a 3-4 DT. Merriman is a 3-4 OLB.

3. The Bills began drafting 3-4 guys. The Bills have more 4-3 guys on the roster.

 

It's totally a mixed bag right now and until Gailey or Nix goes on record and says flat out we're one defense or another, we'll be guessing. It's hard to say what will happen. But we may continue to run some hybrid looks out of both base defenses.

 

But you have to wonder, why did they bring in Wannstedt? He's a very experienced coach, 4-3 guy through and through, and he was brought here as an assistant head coach. What does that mean? Is it just a title, a form of respect? Or are they positioning him to take over the defense? Who the hell knows.

 

I'm confused and it's bothering me because I really wanna know. Someone needs to tell us what Wannstedt's job is, what our defense is. It needs to be defined.

Edited January 23, 2011 by lets_go_bills

[Pilsner]

I'm thinking it will be a hybrid 3-4, 4-3 yet again next year but still progressing towards a 3-4. Wanny won't stay with us forever. If he does well he'll prolly get his crack at another HC spot again. But only if he does quite well with our D. In that case maybe Edwards will be kept around to improve his game and glean anything he can from DW to take over when Wanny does eventually leave. Damn I speculate too much.

 

Go Bills!!!

[Geno Smith's Arm]

All this concern about the scheme! I'm concerned about the players.... If Pittsburgh switched to a 4-3 next year, they would still kick a**. The Bills need to get more defensive talent!

[Estro]

Batten, a 4-year DE in college, was initially put at OLB but switched to ILB. He has been attending all meetings and drills. He would make a great ILB sidekick to Poz in either the 3-4 or backup for Poz in a 4-3. I love his ability to tackle and slough off a block in traffic. He'll play on ST, too.

 

Moats really came on in the last 4 games. He had a steep learning curve but he's best as a pass-rushing OLB.

 

We're still going to take two LB's in this draft, or sign a very good free agent.

 

 

I knew when training camp started Danny was slated as an OLB and Moats an ILB. Due to injury we obviously know Moats was kicked out to OLB, but I never heard about Batten moving to ILB. I know the scouts definitely liked Danny Batten as an OLB. When and where did you hear that Batten moved to ILB, I must've missed this?

Edited January 23, 2011 by Estro

[dgrid]

I knew when training camp started Danny was slated as an OLB and Moats an ILB. Due to injury we obviously know Moats was kicked out to OLB, but I never heard about Batten moving to ILB. I know the scouts definitely liked Danny Batten as an OLB. When and where did you hear that Batten moved to ILB, I must've missed this?

Batten, who began lining up as an outside linebacker in the spring and summer, has been learning the inside linebacker position in the meeting rooms while rehabbing his surgically repaired shoulder.

about 1/2 way down http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Rookies-show-big-promise/2269e311-1e53-4753-b45f-627fabc68924

Edited January 23, 2011 by dgrid

[John from Riverside]

Everybody is so ready for DW to leave and he just got here.....maybe we dont make the same mistake as we did with Pittsburgs great DC who was once with us and actually have him run things?

 

Am I the only one here who thinks Edwards is DC in title only and DW is actually running things now?

[Zulu Cthulhu]

All this concern about the scheme! I'm concerned about the players.... If Pittsburgh switched to a 4-3 next year, they would still kick a**. The Bills need to get more defensive talent!

You're right in a sense. Pitt probably would still be awesome no matter the scheme. But the scheme still matters, especially if you want to run a hybrid 34-43 that the bills i believe are working towards.

 

I don't believe the bills would re-sign kelsay if they exclusively wanted to run a 34 going forward. I also dont think they would've re-signed merriman if they are thinking about running a 43 exclusively in the future.

 

Hopefully (it's a big hope) the D coaches are looking at running a multiple base set D a la New England and need to get players that can play in both. Quinn would be a fit in both. Dareus would also flourish as a hybrid DE/OLB.

 

I hope that's the way they go, but who knows.

 

Great thread OP because i think your question will have a lot of influence on the draft come april.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

You're right in a sense. Pitt probably would still be awesome no matter the scheme. But the scheme still matters, especially if you want to run a hybrid 34-43 that the bills i believe are working towards.

 

I don't believe the bills would re-sign kelsay if they exclusively wanted to run a 34 going forward. I also dont think they would've re-signed merriman if they are thinking about running a 43 exclusively in the future.

 

Hopefully (it's a big hope) the D coaches are looking at running a multiple base set D a la New England and need to get players that can play in both. Quinn would be a fit in both. Dareus would also flourish as a hybrid DE/OLB.

 

I hope that's the way they go, but who knows.

 

Great thread OP because i think your question will have a lot of influence on the draft come april.

 

Actually I'm hoping that it doesn't have any influence on the draft. I want them to choose the guy that they think will become the best player, NOT choose a guy because he "fits the scheme". I think you are right, and that they will play a hybrid, and that should allow them to be more flexible as far as who they pick.

[wooly22]

Everybody is so ready for DW to leave and he just got here.....maybe we dont make the same mistake as we did with Pittsburgs great DC who was once with us and actually have him run things?

 

Am I the only one here who thinks Edwards is DC in title only and DW is actually running things now?

 

 

I for one, am happy to have him here. It will be interesting to see how things pan out. I don't care if we go 4-3, 3-4, or a hybred, as long as the D can shut down the run and get pressure on the QB, I will be happy.

[BillnutinHouston]

You can't go wrong drafting a quick first-step. The front office knows you can't coach quickness, and that mindset has never steered the Bills wrong.

 

^^ THIS! ^^

 

Signed,

 

Aaron Maybin's agent

[BuffaloBill]

 

It's totally a mixed bag right now and until Gailey or Nix goes on record and says flat out we're one defense or another, we'll be guessing. It's hard to say what will happen. But we may continue to run some hybrid looks out of both base defenses.

 

 

I'm confused and it's bothering me because I really wanna know. Someone needs to tell us what Wannstedt's job is, what our defense is. It needs to be defined.

 

 

Gailey has gone on record saying that depending on the sition they will play either front. I believe gailey would likely prefer to play more 3-4 but the personnel is not in place for this. Williams was a beast this year but I still believe he is too small to be the run stuffer you need at NT on a 3-4. Kelsay is a joke at OLB.

[Pilsner]

I'm in no rush for DW to leave. I hope he kicks ass chews bubble gum and takes names. If he kicks too much ass he might be tempted to have another go at a HC position somewhere. Personally though I hope he does well and sticks around for quite a while.

[rpcolosi]

All this concern about the scheme! I'm concerned about the players.... If Pittsburgh switched to a 4-3 next year, they would still kick a**. The Bills need to get more defensive talent!

 

 

nope. look at larry foote -a guy who dominated in pittsburgh and sucked it up in a 4-3 in detroit. scheme is huge. our HC and GM weren't on the same page day 1 with it (Gailey has only had his pittsburgh stint with a 3-4 if I am not mistaken and Nix, in the nfl at least, has never been around a 4-3). this worries me as it has since hte day we brought in chan.

[Kelly the Dog]

We will be switching back and forth between the team schemes like we did for most of last year when it became obvious we couldn't run a 3-4 yet. Gailey came right out and said it after the season was over and bills.com/Wannstedt reiterated it this week. They even said they may change it week to week depending on who they play. It's a pretty risky strategy, and doesn't make a lot of sense as much more than a stopgap (which of course may be what we need right now). We don't have the personnel for either of them, but it seems hard to draft or for FA to sign here if you don't have a clear scheme. The top players I suppose can play both schemes, but even guys like, say, Merriman, seem much better fits in one scheme versus the other.

[Astrobot]

2 things: (1) Wannstedt was obviously brought in to provide what Gailey/Nix/Edwards lack: 4-3 expertise. (2) Players who are scheme-specific will be less likely to be drafted by the Bills: On our Big Board there is a column "P2 Diff". This is "Position 2 Differential", or the number of slots the player slides if selected for the second position listed.

 

Players Where It Makes No Difference:

Fairley DE34 DT43

Peterson FS CB

 

Players Who Are Scheme-Specific:

Dareus DT43 DE34

Bowers DE43 DE34

Quinn OLB34 DE43

Sherrod LOT ROT

Ayers SILB OLB34

 

2 things:

(1) Wannstedt was obviously brought in to provide what Gailey/Nix/Edwards lack: 4-3 expertise.

 

(2) Players who are scheme-specific will be less likely to be drafted by the Bills. On our Big Boardthere is a column "P2 Diff". This is "Position 2 Differential", or the number of slots the player slides if selected for the second position listed.

 

Players Where It Makes No Difference:

Fairley DE34 DT43

Peterson FS CB

 

Players Who Are Scheme-Specific:

Dareus DT43 DE34

Bowers DE43 DE34

Quinn OLB34 DE43

Sherrod LOT ROT

Ayers SILB OLB34

[frogger]

nope. look at larry foote -a guy who dominated in pittsburgh and sucked it up in a 4-3 in detroit. scheme is huge. our HC and GM weren't on the same page day 1 with it (Gailey has only had his pittsburgh stint with a 3-4 if I am not mistaken and Nix, in the nfl at least, has never been around a 4-3). this worries me as it has since hte day we brought in chan.

 

 

dominated is a strong word, he was good, but nothing dominating...to me Ray Lewis is dominating.

The other part of that is it was Detroit...I think you could put a pro bowl team in detroit and they would lose ten games, much like the current atmosphere in Buffalo.

[Tsaikotic]

wondering if Wanny talks to Nix and Gailey about maybe going after any of his players from Pitt...anyone have any thoughts on these guys?:

 

Jabaal Sheard, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh - round 2 or 3 ??

Jason Pinkston, OT, Pittsburgh - round 2-4 ??

Greg Romeus, DE, Pittsburgh - round 3-5 ??

Jonathan Baldwin*, WR, Pittsburgh round 1-3 ??

 

I've heard some on Greg Romeus on this site, but nothing of any of the others

[DrDawkinstein]

From this morning's article, directly out of Wanny's mouth:

 

At the close of the 2010 campaign Gailey openly discussed a move to being a more multiple-front defense with possible weekly shifts from 3-4 to 4-3 fronts and vice versa depending on the opponent. Wannstedt is on board, but also recognizes that this offseason will demand a lot of planning and decision making from the defensive staff in determining their chief direction.

 

“I think it will change a little bit week to week depending on what you’re trying to defend,” said Wannstedt. “But from the standpoint of what is going to be the foundation of our defense and in critical times what is going to be our bread and butter and what we’ll line up and execute and win with, I think those are the decisions in talking with George and his staff that we’re in the process of right now in the offseason.”

[3rdand12]

Think hybrid, go green!

 

btw I have no doubt that we will bring in a big asskicking space eating NT to support Troup. So Williams can be moved around. We will do a lot of team specific packages. WannStache said so today in his Buffalo Bills presser.!

[jumbalaya]

McCargo is a better fit for the 4-3, the DW hiring now makes more sense.

[aristocrat]

nope. look at larry foote -a guy who dominated in pittsburgh and sucked it up in a 4-3 in detroit. scheme is huge. our HC and GM weren't on the same page day 1 with it (Gailey has only had his pittsburgh stint with a 3-4 if I am not mistaken and Nix, in the nfl at least, has never been around a 4-3). this worries me as it has since hte day we brought in chan.

 

larry foote had about the same impact in detroit as he did in pitt but in pitt there were players around him that made more plays. in detroit there was nobody making plays so the defense sucked. look at ryan picket...340 lb's playing def end for green bay. ngata is 350 and playing end in baltimore. its all about getting guys that are athletes and play football along with solid coaching. clay matthews would tear it up in a 4-3 just as he does in the 3-4. we just have no talent.

[JPS]

Didn't Wanny run a hybrid 3-4 in Dallas with Charles Haley in the Shawne Merriman role (rush the passer most plays)? What'd they call that...the "elephant" D?

[Bob in STL]

The Bills appear completely and absolutely torn between which defense they want to play. There's evidence that points to each the 3-4 and the 4-3.

 

1. Edwards is a 3-4 guy. Wannstedt a 4-3.

2. Williams is a 3-4 DT. Merriman is a 3-4 OLB.

3. The Bills began drafting 3-4 guys. The Bills have more 4-3 guys on the roster.

 

It's totally a mixed bag right now and until Gailey or Nix goes on record and says flat out we're one defense or another, we'll be guessing. It's hard to say what will happen. But we may continue to run some hybrid looks out of both base defenses.

 

But you have to wonder, why did they bring in Wannstedt? He's a very experienced coach, 4-3 guy through and through, and he was brought here as an assistant head coach. What does that mean? Is it just a title, a form of respect? Or are they positioning him to take over the defense? Who the hell knows.

 

I'm confused and it's bothering me because I really wanna know. Someone needs to tell us what Wannstedt's job is, what our defense is. It needs to be defined.

 

 

Wannstedt will run the defense just like Chan runs the offense. They call Modkins the OC but on game day it is Chan calling the plays. Expect the same with Wannstedt.

 

Wannstedt has played mostly 4-3 but that will not stop him from playing both.

 

I susupect they will draft a versatile DLs and LBs and then play the system that best fits the talent. At least that is what i hope they do. I also suspect they will try to mix it up on defense, just like today's offenses do.

 

Wannstedt is just to experienced and well paid to not be the main man on defense.

[Kelly the Dog]

Wannstedt will run the defense just like Chan runs the offense. They call Modkins the OC but on game day it is Chan calling the plays. Expect the same with Wannstedt.

 

Wannstedt has played mostly 4-3 but that will not stop him from playing both.

 

I susupect they will draft a versatile DLs and LBs and then play the system that best fits the talent. At least that is what i hope they do. I also suspect they will try to mix it up on defense, just like today's offenses do.

 

Wannstedt is just to experienced and well paid to not be the main man on defense.

The Modkins example, IMO, is a dumb one. Gailey runs every aspect of the offense and doesn't even bother with the defense. Modkins is simply his sounding board, little more than a position coach. Gailey came in and immediately said I will call all the plays and run the offense.

 

I bet Wannstedt isn't really making much money. He's not really a desirable commodity these days (although I'm glad we have him). He hasn't been in the league in six years. He got two interviews and no second interviews. There are DC jobs where he wasnt even called in as a candidate. He only signed with the Bills when Dick Jauron of all people was chosen over him for the Cleveland job.

[RuntheDamnBall]

2 things: (1) Wannstedt was obviously brought in to provide what Gailey/Nix/Edwards lack: 4-3 expertise. (2) Players who are scheme-specific will be less likely to be drafted by the Bills: On our Big Board there is a column "P2 Diff". This is "Position 2 Differential", or the number of slots the player slides if selected for the second position listed.

 

Players Where It Makes No Difference:

Fairley DE34 DT43

Peterson FS CB

 

Players Who Are Scheme-Specific:

Dareus DT43 DE34

Bowers DE43 DE34

Quinn OLB34 DE43

Sherrod LOT ROT

Ayers SILB OLB34

 

2 things:

(1) Wannstedt was obviously brought in to provide what Gailey/Nix/Edwards lack: 4-3 expertise.

 

(2) Players who are scheme-specific will be less likely to be drafted by the Bills. On our Big Boardthere is a column "P2 Diff". This is "Position 2 Differential", or the number of slots the player slides if selected for the second position listed.

 

Players Where It Makes No Difference:

Fairley DE34 DT43

Peterson FS CB

 

Players Who Are Scheme-Specific:

Dareus DT43 DE34

Bowers DE43 DE34

Quinn OLB34 DE43

Sherrod LOT ROT

Ayers SILB OLB34

I'm gonna go get the papers, get the papers.

[3rdand12]

I have considered about what actually was Mr. Wannstadts reasoning to come here.

The somewhat paranoid, me included think that maybe no one else wanted him.

But i honestly think i think he saw a comfort level and a good chance to succeed.

Being a fellow getting on in years, if i were to take a job that was a step up( for him, college ball to nfl after so long )i would want to be sure of both of those things. One usually equals the other.and vice versa.

[Bangarang]

We're staying with the 3-4 long term. We're implementing 4-3 sets to utilize the personnel we have now until we have more players best suited for the 3-4.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

All this concern about the scheme! I'm concerned about the players.... If Pittsburgh switched to a 4-3 next year, they would still kick a**. The Bills need to get more defensive talent!

Pittsburg always focuses on the LBs they are key to that defense. Right now we are lacking possible 2 - 3 LBs and thats assuming Moats and Merriman

[Geno Smith's Arm]

nope. look at larry foote -a guy who dominated in pittsburgh and sucked it up in a 4-3 in detroit. scheme is huge. our HC and GM weren't on the same page day 1 with it (Gailey has only had his pittsburgh stint with a 3-4 if I am not mistaken and Nix, in the nfl at least, has never been around a 4-3). this worries me as it has since hte day we brought in chan.

 

Nope nope. Just cause ONE guy changed teams and didn't play as well doesn't prove anything. It was a change of team, he maybe had one good year and cashed in, many possibilities. Of course the scheme matters, but the Bills have so many holes on their defense , that they don't have to define themselves by picking for a scheme, they can put the scheme together based on who they acquire, meaning PICK THE BEST DEFENDER IN THE DRAFT!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

nope. look at larry foote -a guy who dominated in pittsburgh and sucked it up in a 4-3 in detroit. scheme is huge. our HC and GM weren't on the same page day 1 with it (Gailey has only had his pittsburgh stint with a 3-4 if I am not mistaken and Nix, in the nfl at least, has never been around a 4-3). this worries me as it has since hte day we brought in chan.

Its worried me since they aren't committed to one or the other, a dubble minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

McCargo is a better fit for the 4-3, the DW hiring now makes more sense.

 

Really? McCargo is so out of here. Hiring Wanny had nothing to do with him.

[Bob in STL]

The Modkins example, IMO, is a dumb one. Gailey runs every aspect of the offense and doesn't even bother with the defense. Modkins is simply his sounding board, little more than a position coach. Gailey came in and immediately said I will call all the plays and run the offense.

 

I bet Wannstedt isn't really making much money. He's not really a desirable commodity these days (although I'm glad we have him). He hasn't been in the league in six years. He got two interviews and no second interviews. There are DC jobs where he wasnt even called in as a candidate. He only signed with the Bills when Dick Jauron of all people was chosen over him for the Cleveland job.

 

Do you really know that Gailey does not bother with the defense? If true, that makes Wannstedt even more valuable.

 

Do you know how much Wannstedt is making?

 

Do you know how many second interviews were granted for other DC positions?

 

Do you know what minute of the day Jauron was offered the Clevland job and if so, do you know when Wannstedt was notified? It looked to me that the news on Wannstedt broke before the news on Jauron but I will not claim to know for sure.

 

Comparing Edwards DC position to that of Modkins OC position seesm reasonable. It is reasonable to assume that Wannstedt will have more resonsiblity than just ILB coach and that he will be leading the defensive game planning and strategy as well as have a role in mentoring Edwards.

 

Thanks.