dave mcbride

I think he was "good" -- but not great. He was quite literally a better than average NFL qb from 1998-2000, the years he played for the Bills. His rating-plus number over the three years was 112, 97, and 112. 100 is average. The thing is, even in his down year - 1999 - he did good things: 476 rushing yards (a lot!). The Bills finished 11th in yards that year, so they were at least decent on offense. The game that I always go back to that season was the Baltimore game: he was terrible throughout most of it but pulled the rabbit out of the hat at the end. But what was most interesting about that relatively early-season game is the fact that no one knew how good that Ravens D actually was. They ended up dominating in 1999 (2nd overall) and had arguably the best defense ever the next season.

I'd pay money to see that.

Now that's what I call lowering expectations!!!

He was hardly the greatest player ever, but we shouldn't be holding him to that standard here given that the subject of this thread is ultimately Rob Johnson. In no world was Johnson better than Flutie.

Not for nothing, but that Miami defense was far better than the 1999 Titans' defense in pretty much every category. Flutie had turnovers, yes, but he basically lit the best defense in the league (1st in points allowed; 3rd in yards allowed; 1st i INTs; 3rd in passing TDs allowed; 3rd in net yards per passing attempt allowed) up like a Christmas tree. Tennessee's pass D in 1999 was 25th in passing yards given up and 27th in TD passes allowed. If you prefer Johnson over Flutie you have no observation skills.

necro-crusade is a phenomenal term!

What people forget about Johnson is why he was drafted in the fourth round. It wasn't because of talent, because in terms of being a physical specimen and a thrower, he was the best qb coming out in 1995. He was incredibly talented.The reason he dropped is because of his terrible performances in big games. He faced off against UCLA and ND 6 times, and USC won zero of those games. Why is that important? Because his LT was Tony Boselli and his #1 receivers were, in succession, Curtis Conway, Johnnie Morton, and Keyshawn Johnson. All were first round picks and all had excellent NFL careers (all over 500 receptions lifetime), and Boselli was the best college o-lineman I ever saw. That Trojans' team was LOADED; on D they had Darrell Russell and Willie McGinest. Yet all they got during the Johnson years were a couple of Freedom Bowl appearances and a Cotton Bowl appearance against a sad-sack (6-6) Texas Tech team. It's also worth noting that his brother, Bret Johnson, was the #1 HS recruit in the country and chose UCLA. When he didn't win the job there, he left the program and transferred to Michigan State. He did nothing there either. Believe it when I say that Bret Johnson was HIGHLY touted.

Darnold but I'd be very happy with either.

Ok then. Let's look at all of the Florida, Florida State, Notre Dame, Texas, Tennessee, Alabama, Miami, Penn State, LSU, and Michigan QBs since 1970 who really made it at the NFL level. They are storied programs, and they all generally produced one great qb max. Where Darnold went to school is MEANINGLESS. It is a truly weak inference.

I thought it was this year's. My bad.

PS - goodnight 26; i've gotta go to bed (exhausted from watching my hs senior son pitch a one-hit shutout late this afternoon in central park in a 2-0 game-public school athletic league). I'll pick it up tomorrow!

A guy who is always good in the playoffs should be starting for a lot of teams. Have you read about the Fisher offensive system? It was ridiculous. It hurt Foles's career, and it may have destroyed Goff's if it had persisted.

Oh please. He may or may not be traded, but you don't know the price they're asking for or what teams think of him. And maybe philly is one of those rare smart teams that realizes the value in keeping him. (Clearly, that now seems to be the case.) Please engage beyond one sentence quips. Tell me: what do you actually think of his playoff game performances against NO, Atl, Minn, and NE? Playoff football is put up or shut up time, and I''m curious to know your views on each of these performances. I watched all of them, as i suspect you did. Fair enough. These are arguable. I don't know enough about mahomes, but my point isn't who their guy is; it's who is better. Foles is far better than manning at this point, who is now borderline bad.

Dude, engage. Four word sentences aren't arguments, they're the lack thereof. But since you asked: miami, Buffalo, nyj, cleveland, cincy (yes), jax, tenn (yes), kc, denver, nyg, minn (certainly arguable), chicago, tampa, arizona. That's 14.

And you still aren't engaging the argument beyond surface-level quips. You're better than this. Engage.

Oh come on. Right now, he'd be starting for over half the teams in the league. He's far better than three of the four current afc east starters, to start.

PS - I said this before, but I saw an interview with Foles after the Atlanta playoff game in which he said that after he was traded to the rams, everyone coached him into being a pro-style qb and tried to move him away from what he was good at in that great season with kelly -- playing qb like a point guard (which he was actually recruited for out of HS, along with football). After the end of the season, pederson told him to play the game like he had before - as a point guard - and to forget all of that other stuff. Clearly, it worked. It also indicates how bad Fisher was at conceptualizing a modern offense. See above. I don't buy it. There is no context to your argument beyond surface stats.

Look, if you're not going to factor in the three playoff games to his overall performance last season, I don't know what to say. It's like Bills fans saying Hogan only had 38 catches in 2016 and neglecting his crazy postseason stats against better competition in more meaningful games. The dallas game was utterly meaningless, but he stepped it up against better teams over the the next 3 games in a big way.

See edit above. I fundamentally don't buy your argument and i actually watched the games .

Deal with the Fisher problem if you are going to make this argument. The Rams were a qb graveyard under him. As for last season, he was excellent subbing for wentz against LA (i watched the game, forget the stats) and struggled in a meaningless game against dallas. He was excellent against a good atlanta team after an opening-throw duck (just like ryan) in bad conditions, and then shredded Minn and NE.

Prediction: 4 of the the top 5 picks are qbs.

Don't get me wrong -- I think he'll be a good pro and perhaps the best of the lot.

Not sure I understand your point. It's pretty clear that with the Rams, he ended up being asked to run an antiquated Coryell system, which was the opposite of what he is good at (modified RPO system which is entirely legit at this point). Outside of the Rams, he has been pretty darn good overall, and we now have enough playoff games (4) to conclude that he is basically elite in the postseason -- 113.2 rating. I'm eliminating his rookie season from consideration - Philly was a mess in 2012 and Reid was on his way out.

He won't end up on the Bills, but he is so much better than so many people here think.

Seriously, not unimportant. The Giants are back down to 5 picks, and they are currently a team that needs picks.